1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Right Defensive Ends...

Discussion in 'NFL Draft Forum' started by FinNasty, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I think one of our clear needs that we can all agree on is RDE. A true edge threat to compliment Wake and be a disruptive terror on the line...


    However... when I look at the majority of the top 43 DE prospects, from the limited amount I've seen of them... it looks like almost all of them seemed to play at LDE in college, and or looks to be an LDE in the pros. Mingo, Werner, Margus Hunt, Sam Montgomery (played RDE opposite Mingo, but IMO looks more like a LDE than RDE in the NFL.), Alex Okafor, etc.


    Besides Tank Carradine... who are the other pure RDE edge rushing prospects that can explosively get after the QB?
     
    Bpk likes this.
  2. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

    5,783
    1,931
    113
    Apr 17, 2008
    Dion Jordan and Ensah, which is why they will both be top 10, probably Top 5 picks.
     
  3. surferosa

    surferosa Balance and Vision

    842
    474
    0
    Mar 23, 2008
    John Abraham?
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  4. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    So that's it... huh? And to me... Jordan seems more like a OLB and Ensah just wasn't very impressive IMO. Are there really no good fits for the RDE spot in the 2nd-3rd rounds?

    If that's the case... it moves Tank higher on the priority list for me...
     
  5. UCF FINatic

    UCF FINatic The Miami Dolphins select

    5,783
    1,931
    113
    Apr 17, 2008
    Jordan will go #2 to Jacksonville IMO to play the wide 9.
     
  6. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Maybe lining up all the way out there, I could see it. Seems like hes best in space...
     
  7. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    I love Werner @ 12, Watson @ 22 and Hopkins @ 180. Go Noles.
     
  8. Daben

    Daben Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,684
    1,879
    113
    Apr 9, 2008
    Any thoughts regarding Trevardo Williams in the 3-5 region as a nickel rusher from the right end spot? Could also hopefully develop as a LB. Kind of like how the coaching staff seem to be approaching Kaddu, only in Williams' case he has the production and physical ability to suggest he might be a better bet. Of course I've never a actually seen the guy play so I thought I'd ask those in the know :)
     
    FinNasty likes this.
  9. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Corey Lemonier
     
    Bpk, Limbo and FinNasty like this.
  10. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    See... the dilemma about Werner (and what appears to be a lot of DEs in this class)... is that he played LDE in college, not RDE, and is probably best suited at LDE in the pros. Meanwhile, Wake is a LDE and plays best at LDE. So I don't think Werner is a good fit.
     
  11. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

    2,476
    1,128
    113
    Mar 21, 2013
    Carradine would be my pick at 12, that's what I hope we do ultimately. I think Werner would be good at RDE too; his strength is his get-off at the snap with that first step and also reading plays. Whether we pick Tank/Werner or not, I also like Corey Lemonier as a nickel-type guy. 2012 production at Auburn not quite where you want it, but the rest of his DLine was god-awful; his 2011 was a lot better due to him having solid players with him on that unit. He's got great explosion and is a physical freak. I'd take him in the 2nd.

    Trevardo Williams interests me some, probably in the 4th. Undersized, but great production at UConn. There are 3 Huskies I would really like on the phins...in order: Sio Moore (2nd), Dwayne Gratz (3rd), and Williams.

    Devin Taylor is an option for RDE as well. He played LDE at SoCar, but moved to the right at the shrine game(?) where he played really well - albeit against meh competition, imo. Huge, lanky frame with nice agility. Maybe 2b or 3rd? I'd be in favor of him if we don't take Tank. Cornelius Washington had a nice seniorbowl week too, coming off the right side.

    I want to take two pass-rushers early in the draft. I like the depth this year and, simply, I want to attack the other teams' most important player. Tank/Werner/Taylor & Lemonier/Washington/Williams. Get a more 4-3 size guy and one of these faster nickel types
    .
     
    Bpk and mason like this.
  12. chillininfl328

    chillininfl328 New Member

    65
    21
    0
    Mar 25, 2013


    Actually Werner and and Carradine flipped lde and rde positions quite often in the 2012 season, and in 2011 he took maybe 20% of his snaps on the other side even lining up in the middle on occasion.
     
  13. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    I seem to remember he and Carradine flipping around quite a bit, but you could be right.
     
  14. chillininfl328

    chillininfl328 New Member

    65
    21
    0
    Mar 25, 2013
    No your memory serves you correctly. It is an aspect of Werner's game that has been pretty much completely overlooked and gives even less credence to his average measurables.

    see 2011 highlights, the dude is making plays from wherever he lines up
    [video=youtube;WtP-K5E3UAY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtP-K5E3UAY[/video]
     
    smahtaz likes this.
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,939
    154,757
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Tank Carradine, Bjoern Werner, Dion Jordan, Alex Okafor, Devin Taylor, Cornelius Washington, Barkevious Mingo and Corey Lemonier can all probably play RDE.

    Although I would note with Dion Jordan you might be better off playing him as a linebacker.

    Some guys are not side-specific, some guys are. There isn't necessarily a rhyme or reason to it. Just like with offensive tackles and guards. Some guys one side is just as good as another. Some guys move to the other side and they're like lost puppies. The important thing to me is whether I've seen you demonstrate proficiency on the right side, even if you play left. Do I see the same player? Am I seeing the same results?

    Bjoern Werner played left side a lot in college but also played on the right side and was a more efficient pass rusher from that right side. This leads me to believe he could easily switch.

    Devin Taylor's physical skill set and playing style translates better to the right side than the left side. His production started to fall when Jadaveon Clowney arrived and Clowney is pretty exclusively a right side pass rusher. Prior to that I think Taylor played right side more often than you see now (which is practically never). He showed up at the Shrine Game and played right side again and had one of the most dominant individual All Star game performances I've seen since Brandon Marshall (Hula Bowl), Marques Colston (Shrine Game) and Phil Rivers (Senior Bowl).

    Cornelius Washington is begging to be used wide and allowed to convert speed to power against offensive tackles all day long. The best side for him to do that is going to be the right side and that's where he had a very big impact on the Senior Bowl. So again this is an example of a guy that I've seen not only play on the right side, play play particularly well there.

    Alex Okafor is first and foremost an accomplished, savvy, extremely effective pass rusher. Those you usually put on the right side.

    Barkevious Mingo played left while Sam Montgomery played right. I cannot say whether Mingo will be one of those guys that just can't "get it" on the right side as opposed to left. I don't know that. It's yet to be discovered.
     
    Bpk, smahtaz, Alex13 and 1 other person like this.
  16. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Awesome info CK! This is a position I am really starting to dive into as I cram for next week lol.

    What are your thoughts on Damontre Moore from TA&M? He's looked pretty impressive from the little bit I've seen?
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,939
    154,757
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I dislike him a lot. I disliked him a lot when everyone were singing his praises and Todd McShay was saying he could go #2 or maybe even #1 overall. He's got really good ability to move in space. He's explosive in his direction changes and acceleration from a standup position, he's athletic (despite poor workout showings), and he makes most of his plays using those qualities along with his motor.

    But when push comes to shove he just doesn't beat offensive tackles and blockers, even lesser blockers like tight ends and backs. I've seen a 185 lbs wide receiver tie him up in blocking once. He's physically weak in the upper body. I've been saying that a while, before he only did a meager 12 bench reps at the Combine.

    I would definitely consider the guy as a 3-4 Outside Linebacker and actually a pretty good one. There are off field issues to weed through, including reports of laziness and bad work ethic which had to be worsened when he only did 12 bench reps. But as a motor guy, a guy that can run around and make plays a number of different ways, I think you'd potentially take him in the 2nd round as long as certain other guys are off the board. One of those is Zeke Ansah. I'm not a huge fan of Ansah but he's a lot like Moore only he has a little bit better excuse for his lack of true pass rush success, and he's bigger, stronger and more athletic.
     
    NUGap, FinNasty and Boomer like this.
  18. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

    3,840
    636
    0
    Feb 26, 2013
    Lavar Edwards has played both sides, but he's been effective as RDE.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    78,939
    154,757
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    A decent Day 3 prospect, to me.
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    72,252
    43,682
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I guess in many ways, it makes sense to move up for Werner. Play opposite Wake, then take over for him in time.
     
  21. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I've only seen a few YouTube clips so I appreciate the info! I loved the explosiveness he had, so that's what caught my eye. Had no idea about the stength/character issues.
     
  22. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    28,315
    41,198
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I think it is a bit more than a right/left side issue. Not only do they need a right defensive end, they need one in the physical profile typical left defensive end. It's not impossible but it narrows down the field to a significant degree.
     
  23. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Not sure I agree. Why is it you feel that way?
     
    smahtaz likes this.
  24. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    28,315
    41,198
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    They started Odrick because they liked what they knew he could do and favored that over a traditional edge rusher, not because they didn't have anyone else. Kevin Coyle's defense is very close to the Bengals, and they never had a guy under 280lbs in the position and have never had a high quality edge rusher there until Carlos Dunlap fell in their laps.

    They aren't going to run a defense with two ends split at wide techniques in the base package. It's possible that some of the specific elements of the defense has them relax the size element, but I'd be pretty shocked if they spent significant resources on a draft pick under 270lbs. and can't punch above his weight class in terms of strength and run defense.
     
    ToddPhin and Da 'Fins like this.
  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    72,252
    43,682
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Who in this draft do you think fits this role?
     
  26. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    6,366
    5,329
    113
    Dec 9, 2012
    Bpk likes this.
  27. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    28,315
    41,198
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I'm not really a draft guy, but I don't think there are a lot of guys that are likely. Most guys would be disqualified for one reason or the other, and I think the Dolphins seemingly having very little interest(from what I've read) in edge rushers in interviews/work-outs aligns with that. I know they looked at Cornellius Carradine, which seems like the most likely high profile option. I thought they had some interaction with Malliciah Goodman too, but I could be wrong. I don't know they've looked at anyone other than that.

    I think the most likely is a short-term veteran Nickel sub, develop what they have, and kick the can down the road

    edit- lol soon as I post this invid posts the Lemonier thing.
     
    Bpk and Fin D like this.
  28. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    24,036
    20,735
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    Birmingham, AL
    I like Carradine - but would have serious issue with him at #12. Maybe in a trade down and take him at 20.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  29. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Didn't know that about Coyle's defense. Schematically, why does he do that? What advantage is he trying to create that is valued over additional pass rush? Is it something that just isn't prioritized... or that they ask specific things from that DE in terms of gap responsibility or something that requires a bigger guy?
     
  30. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

    24,029
    40,478
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    It is a hybrid scheme. It is almost like Nick Saban's set up in a sense in that it is a 4-3 front with some 3-4 qualities. The end position that Jared Odrick plays is a two gap position 5 technique.
     
  31. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Odrick is 2 gapping huh?

    Well, who's the pass rushing LB playing Jason Taylor's position then? Do we need a guy like Jordan then?
     
  32. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,544
    22,629
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    Misi is essentially the hybrid linebacker paired with Odrick, so Jared isn't really the issue when it comes to right side pass rush just as he wouldn't be an issue in any 3-4 defense. IMO Jared's actually decent compared to the rest of the league as far as hybrid ends go. Ideally we'd want him like Watt or Calais Campbell, but I still feel he's a player we can win with at the position so long as we add another pass rusher to minimize that role among Odrick's duties, and it'll be interesting if he does drop some weight. Coyle seems more concerned with creatively bringing pressure and being unpredictable in that manner rather than utilizing two rush ends in traditional 4-3 approach, which I'm guessing is the main reason why we swapped out Dansby & Burnett for linebackers with better pressure ability. Not to mention, Odrick at end allows us to run a hybrid defense, mix things up better, wall off the line vs the run on 1st down to leave offenses in unfavorable 2nd and 3rd & longs, and I believe having 3 big men up front allows Coyle to scheme it up in ways that lets our linebackers play faster rather than taking extra time to diagnose and follow the flow of the play, which I think similarly helped Bobby Wagner bust onto the scene last year in Seattle. I just think people get too caught up in labels like 4-3 and 3-4 that lead to misperceptions, when in reality there's a lot more to it nowadays than just traditional 4-3 and traditional 3-4.

    What we're missing, like Disgustipate mentioned, is an extra rush end when we're in nickel. Outside of that we'd either need to do one of two things, draft a jumbo end with rare Watt or Campbell type talent or a hybrid linebacker with significant pass rush ability.
     
  33. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

    17,042
    16,077
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    My only problem with that line of thinking is that these days... you're in nickle/dime packages more often than you're not. So the "nickle rusher" role is almost a bigger role than the one Odrick plays in base packages.

    Also, I think the "nickle rusher" can't just be a guy that can only play against the pass. With as much as you need to play nickle, they have to be able to set the edge as well.

    So, I think that role is much bigger than you seem to believe (or at least bigger than I'm interpreting your post to indicate). And that role warrants a pretty significant investment IMO.
     
  34. CANDolphan

    CANDolphan New Member

    1,005
    546
    0
    Feb 18, 2012
    Seattle's d-line is similar to ours as well (schematically), no?
     
  35. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    28,315
    41,198
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    It isn't all that uncommon that a teams typical base defense only has one edge rusher. It's that way on a fair amount of teams, and I think it's arguable if it helps you out a whole lot. You don't want to get stuck in a situation where a team is passing heavily against your base, but that's some teams more than others etc. and so on.

    I think the Dolphins defensive fronts are a little screwy because of Cameron Wake being a left-side only guy. This defense you'd expect to use a lot of "Under" fronts with Odrick lined up on the strong side covered by blockers and Misi aligned over the tight end on the line of scrimmage, but that would generally involve them being on the defensive left side. Because of Wake you get a lot more situations where Odrick is lined up wider than he probably should be because he's on the weak side.

    It's a little bit inefficient, but it was hardly a big problem last year.

    It's the same general personnel package and design, but they don't end up with Red Bryant in space as much as we do Odrick.
     
  36. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    28,315
    41,198
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    The base package linebacker on the line of scrimmage doesn't seem to rush the passer that much.

    Yes, but it's still a position playing +/- 50% of snaps, where Odrick kicks inside in Nickel packages and doesn't have to leave the field in base or Nickel except for fatigue issues.

    You might see more and more teams willing to spend more on Nickel substitutes(Seahawks arguably did with Bruce Irvin last year but not sure that applies as Chris Clemons might have been on his way out in general), but I'm not sure you break the bank.
     
  37. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Personally I'd like to see us sign John Abraham and draft Corey Lemonier to improve the pass rush. Abraham is a bit older, but he's the real deal and can give us a short term answer in terms of the pass rush improvement that we need. Lemonier is strong, active along the LOS and in pursuit, has one heck of a first step and can get after the QB. The bottom line is that pass rushers are few and far apart on this team after Cameron Wake- and what happens if he gets hurt? Getting one pass rusher this off season would be very good, getting two would be even better.

    Devin Taylor is very interesting as well imo.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  38. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

    40,544
    22,629
    113
    Jul 6, 2012
    NC
    No, I think the role is plenty important. I simply don't think it requires a 1st round pick at the moment when the player won't be an actual starter. IMO we can grab a talented player in the 2nd round and perhaps even 3rd (Okafor, Cornelius Washington, Lemonier, or perhaps Carradine should he slip to 2a) who can impact as a situational rusher early on but possess enough talent to groom as a starter and Wake's eventual replacement. If there were a clear cut elite pass rusher available at 12 then I'd say take him, but I don't see that situation happening.

    Not to mention we have guys who can set the edge in base defense, so stopping the run isn't really an issue for us to where we need to prioritize an end who can start from day one and do it all; IMO that's overkill at the moment, which is why Washington could be a great late 2nd or 3rd round pick b/c he has a ton of upside and we can take the time to groom him as Wake's heir. What could also improve our pass rush in base defense vs pass happy teams w/o having to sacrifice much vs the run if we add another defensive tackle capable of applying pressure who can sub in for Soliai. Of course we could still grab a pass rusher to supplement the edge.
     

Share This Page