Ronnie Brown an Average Back

I'm not saying total rushing yards is meaningless. I'm saying its meaningless without number of carries. To prove that point do you want someone who carries the ball around 200 times and gets 900 yds or someone who carries it 500 times and gets 1500 yds?

When Ronnie is given the ball he produces like AP. And don't forget other RB duties like blocking and receiving or running the wildcat.

Further you cannot make the case that a low total number of carries automatically means the back isn't elite. There are too many variables factored into that.

Again, when he touches the ball he does elite things. That is all you can go by, when measuring a back.

 

We know, because Minny has no QB. When Ronnie was the only offensive weapon he blew the doors off the league. That and 2 freak injuries are the only reason we don't know what Ronnie will do with 300 carries.

Go the other direction, how many yds & TDs would AP have with the few carries RB had?

 

Myself I do think that AP is a better runningback than RB, however AP runs behind a much better line than RB.

 

Umm, when did I say the defenition of an elite back is only total rushing yards? And again, no one can singlehandedly carry a team to the superbowl. So I don't know why you're asking me this question.

 

Exactly. We don't know what Ronnie Brown would do with 300 carries. So why are we assuming he's going to put up AP like numbers when given the 300 carries? He has to do it first. If he does, then we'll consider him elite.

BTW, I actually expect Ronnie Brown to have an elite season. I'm expecting around 1200+ yards and 10+ TDs. The thing is, I want to see him do it on the field before awarding him a contract.

 

Because you're the only RBs you consider elite are ones with high rushing yards. Its not TDs, since RB & AP had the same last year. Its not ypc since their numbers are close there too. That doesn't leave much else to hang the elite hat on.

I didn't say single handedly, I said carry. But fine, scratch that then. How many of the SB winners in the past decade had an elite runner?

 

Alright, then I fall back to my other point about Adrian Peterson, is he an injury prone RB that you wouldn't want on the team?

Peterson's injury history

2005: High ankle sprain, missed 4 games and was bothered by it all season

2006: Broke collarbone on OCt 18th, missed rest of season

2007: Tore lateral collateral ligament, missed time and was bothered by it for rest of season

Peterson has missed as much (if not more) time as Ronnie, would Peterson be considered injury prone? Would anyone here kick him off the team because he can't stay healthy?

I didn't think so.

The offense that this team is using uses a 2 RB system, simple as that.

Saban was trying to rehabilitate Ricky so that he could regain his pre-quitter form. Ricky was a major asset that we could have either kept or traded, but moving him to another team wasn't an option unless we could show that he could produce out on the field. Lets not forget that Ronnie held out due to a contract dispute and didn't get the necessary reps in practice/camp that he should have, so taking those two facts into consideration, a 2 RB offense really was the only option.

Cam had some weird motivational techniques, and I think we can all agree that he was in over his head, so that example is a poor one IMO. Chatman was "his guy", he was familiar with him from his SD days, and like most coaches he favored him in certain respects. But when the games mattered and we needed to get our ground game going, Cam woke up and realized that the only way to win with that team (or try) was to feed Ronnie the ball, and he did an amazing job and looked every bit the elite RB. The offense that Cam brought here was a variant of the SD playbook, not necessarily how the carries were being split.

Not if you look at the offenses that we had and how the coaches were using those players. There were times when we were behind and the running game was completely abandoned so we could play catchup, is that really a reflection on Ronnie or the team as a whole?

It all comes down to the offense that the team employs and surrounding talent. Randy Moss was an amazing WR in Minnesota, he goes to Oakland and looked completely washed up, then he gets traded to the Pats and is the best WR in the game. Drew Brees had a very solid career in SD, then he moved to a more pass-happy offense in NO and he's one of the best QB's in the game. Michael Turner was LT's backup for years and had a very good YPC average and showed glimpses of being a very good RB, he makes the move to Atlanta and he's one of the best RB's in the game. Would anyone here argue that Priest Holmes or Larry Johnson weren't elite level RB's even though they split carries in KC?

The NFL is littered with players who have great production when sharing the load or in a confined offense, and who then break out when given more opportunity. Ronnie has already proven that he fits into that category, when given the ball 20+ times a game he was an elite caliber back and led the NFL in total yards for several straight weeks. Unfortunately our offense is different now, but that doesn't mean that Ronnie can't carry the load or that he's an average player.

 

You're falsely assuming that we could find a RB that would be as productive as Ronnie. It seems as though you are focusing solely on stats to make your argument and completely ignoring how Ronnie is being used. Whether the gameplan calls for him to have 2 carries per game or 50, it's still Ronnie Brown carrying the ball, you aren't going to find many RB's that can be as productive as Ronnie when he gets his hands on the ball. If we traded Ronnie for Adrian Peterson straight up and AP was sharing carries with Ricky and his numbers dipped to what Ronnie has been putting up, would you consider him to be an average back and want to get rid of him for some unknown rookie from the draft? I doubt it.

The reasoning that you are using is faulty IMO, teams don't necessarily use a 2 RB system because they feel that their RB's can't handle the load or that they don't feel that they have good enough players to have a featured RB, they use it to keep their players as fresh as possible and to give the opposing team different looks. Parcells and Co have used this offense for years, even though they had Marion Barber who has the potential to be the best RB in the league, they still scaled back his carries because it fit their offensive philosophy. Does that mean that you can just send any old player in to take Barber's place and all will be good as gold? Not at all, you still need players with elite ability and produce when the do get their chance, this "Rb's are a dime a dozen" way of thinking is truly inaccurate IMO.

 

Not sure if you actually meant that it's unfortunate, but I think it's a good thing that our offense is different. Let's not forget when Ronnie was putting up those great numbers in 2007 we were losing games. Granted it had a lot more to do with defense and other issues and nothing to do with Ronnie.

I also think Ronnie can and will put up much better numbers in this offense this year.

 

I wouldn't give a 29 year old Peterson the contract that Ronnie will be looking for. Almost every RB is going to deal with injuries, that is the reality. By making your RB the focal point of an offense, you are setting yourself up for failure. At some point, the RB will get injured, and then you'll be up a creek.

Goes back to the question posed earlier, 'how many RBs carried their team to a Super Bowl?'. I would prefer to invest the money into the OL (which we have already done).

 

The only average about Ronnie, is his name.

 

Well, unfortunate for the people expecting him to put up Top 5 numbers.

I'd like to see Ronnie given the ball 20+ times a game, but as you said, this offense of sharing carries is better than running your RB into the ground (see: Ricky).

Alot of NFL folks would disagree with you, if a player is productive he is going to get his money from someone, and alot of times it's the Patriots swooping in to make the deal. Ronnie doesn't have the miles on him that LT has, using the 2 RB system has allowed him to preserve his body and he could very well play into his mid 30's at a high level.

As far as RB's and the SB, how many WR's carried their team to the SB? Or LB's? Or CB's? Football is a team game and winning the SB is something that they do as one functional and cohesive group. You can have a very good OL and not win the SB (Redskins), you can have a very good QB and not win the SB (Miami), so the argument you can't have a RB as your featured player doesn't really wash IMO unless you want to make the case that you can't win with a good QB as your featured guy, which is silly. THe Sb is won by teams that have the overall talent, but they have often had RB's at the focal point of their offense. The Steelers won with Bettis, the Broncos won with Davis, the Rams won with Faulk, etc and that's what we're trying to accomplish here with Ronnie. Now we just have to finish surrounding him with talent so that we can make it to the SB and walk away with the trophy.

 

I originally brought up the SB thing. Went back and read what I wrote and realized I wasn't clear.

The point I was trying to make, is that whether RB is elite or not (is), we don't need the "definition" being used here, of an elite back to win it all. So that leaves us with, what does Ronnie mean to the team and would there be a better RB for us to get, for our team? No. Not when you factor in everything RB is asked to do, from wildcat to splitting carries and no small part, living in South Beach and never get into trouble.

 

I haven't seen the Patriots go after any high priced RBs. They've generally used various RBs in specialized roles. My point was, Ronnie can carry the team for most of the season, but at some point in the year he is going to get injured. Almost all RBs do. Once he does, you are putting yourself between a rock and a hard place. You now have to go change what you do, because you certainly cant rely on Ricky Williams to get 150 total yds per game.

I just think the injury rate for RBs is too high these days to really make one guy the focal point.

I wouldn't really say Bettis was a feature back for Pittsburgh. But Faulk and Davis are good examples. The Patriots essentially showed how easy it was stop the Rams, just stop Faulk. The Rams had no answer. Its the same thing that bites SD in the *** every playoffs. Just gameplan to stop LT and put the other players into roles that they aren't used to. Its a lot harder for the other guys to step up when they haven't been put into that situation all year.

Look at it this way, who would you have liked to see get less touches in 2008 in order to get Ronnie more touches? The best thing we had going last year was versatility and the fact that almost every week a different guy led the offense.

 

This thread has made for great discussion, but I think the best answer is what you're hinting at; which is that it doesn't matter if he's "elite" or not. All that really matters is whether or not he is a key part of our plans to win it all. Being an elite player at any position means squat with respect to whether or not you can help your team win it all. Ask Marino, Sanders, Tarkenton, Fouts, Kelly, et. al. There is a very real possibility that Adrian Peterson has a HOF career as the centerpiece of the Vikings franchise and never even sees the field at a Super Bowl, and Ronnie Brown has a "very good" career while playing an integral role in a Dolphins franchise returning to glory and winning two straight in 2010 and 2011 (I know, long shot, but trying to make a point). In such a scenario, which is entirely feasible if you know anything of football and its history, are we still going to be pining for an AP or an LT or a Brady or Manning or "insert MVP candidate here"? Hell no. Then the stat-lusters (love that term by the way) will turn the tables and try to point out how Brown really had the "elite" career b/c hey, he has rings and AP doesn't! And the cycle of "the grass is always greener" will continue ad nauseum.

Look folks, bottom line, AP is definitely a better "pure" runner than RB. He undeniably has better vision, burst, and cuts. But that could be said when comparing him to every other back in the league right now in all honesty. He's a once in a generation type player, IMO. And yet every year that goes by some other back who isn't as "elite" as AP and doesn't have the same stats as AP and doesn't get as many ESPN man love as AP will walk away from the season with a ring when AP doesn't. Every fan in the league right now wants AP just like every fan in the league once coveted Dan Marino, but there's no guarnatee whatsoever that it would matter even if you could go and find another once in a generation type talent.

Having said all that, I still say Ronnie Brown possesses a very unique, dare I say elite, set of skills with his ability to receive, block, take it the distance, and flat out embarass defenders with his mule-like brute strength. After suffering through years and years and years of TRUE MEDIOCRITY at the running back position, we Dol-Fans should all feel like the football Gods have finally smiled upon us and be very happy with it.

 

But I never said rushing yards are the only stats to judge runningbacks. Obviously, the main stats are carries, rushing yards, YPC, and TDs. He's also more explosive and has better vision than Ronnie Brown.

Again, why do you keep mentioning superbowls? We're not talking about what we need to have a superbowl team. We're debating whether or not Ronnie Brown is elite.

 

You're acting as If Ronnie Brown has stats that no runningback in the draft can touch. So far in his career, his stats are average. Plug a runningback behind the right offensive line and he can produce like Ronnie Brown. He isn't setting the world on fire, and I'm pretty sure there is a player in the draft that can produce like Ronnie is.

 

Personally, I don't think Ronnie is an elite back, I think he is one of the top backs, but elite? No.

Do I think we can win a Superbowl with RB, yes without a doubt.

 

You guys are changing the subject. The debate was whether or not Ronnie Brown is elite, and if he deserves an extension or not. We can win the superbowl with him, but he doesn't make or break our chances.

 

In all the Ronnie discussion (and there has been a lot lately) I think this is the best post I have seen on the subject. Well said!

 

That's what this sentence was for:

All that really matters is whether or not he is a key part of our plans to win it all.

This is where the two camps differ. Some think that "anybody" can do what Brown is doing (thus the average moniker). Others think that what Brown can do for us is uniquely important to this particular team. From there people got lost on tangents like whether or not he's elite and whether or not he deserves elite money. So, I didn't change the subject, I just clarified it.

 

When you say stuff like "plug a runningback behind the right offensive line and he can produce like ronnie brown"..... tells me you dont get what it is were tryin to say. Theres so much i disagree with in that statement and the rest of the post, i digress bud. i've argued these points throught the thread.

 

the "average" nfl running back probably plays for 4 seasons, and averages 1500 yds for their career with 6 tds.

ronnie is an excellent nfl runningback. he has not been the second coming of barry sanders, but he is having himself a very productive career.

 

Of course Ronnie Brown is a key part to winning it all. He is the starting running back for this team. But, he can't doing singlehandedly. It takes a team to win it all.

Can you clarify what is so unique about Ronnie Brown and what he brings to this team? I know it isn't the Wildcat, because we have Pat White. It could also be the pass catching and the blocking, and I agree that Ronnie Brown is very good in those two categories. But when it comes to running the football, he has not put up elite stats.

 

He isn't average. But he isn't elite. He's a good running back with potential to be an elite runningback.

 

Then what are you trying to say? Please, tell me.

 

It should be pointed out that Pat White hasn't proven yet that he can run the Wild Cat or much less play any position in the NFL. He hasn't proven that he can't either. But until he makes it happen on the field during the regular season, he is an unknown commodity.

 

have to let the season play out, a lot can happen & probably will
we have one of the best Tandems in the NFL, maybe the best
the real question will be: is Brown a Franchise RB or a Tandem RB?
history has indicated he runs best in tandem is an excellent not elite RB
we will have the answers soon enough, either it is or it isn't
and his contract & next years draft will reflect that reality

our Running Game is first class, the Stable is excellent

 

Heres what i'am trying to say brother..

Ronnie Brown is a Great.... Multidiverse... bad ***... Football Player.

He's probably as a running back, had one of the worst supporting casts and below average variables a back has had over the past 4 years in the league.

Players of his skill and diversity do not grow on trees.

He's true.


Okay, heres the part where you tell me, " but he has'nt shown elite numbers".


If you do that, i'am gonna delay your official nickname..lol

 

Again, you're making the mistake of comparing his yearly totals against players who are utilized differently by their respective teams. The better comparison would be their yards per carry average, how many yards to they gain everytime they touch the ball. Ronnie averages 4.4 ypc for his career which is very good, you want a player who is going to be productive everytime he touches the ball. A player can get 1,000 yards and have 300 carries, but if he's only gaining 3.3 ypc, is that really more effective than the player who has 916 yards and averages 4.3 per carry? Not in my opinion.

If you haven't recognized it by now, you aren't paying attention. It's worth noting that Belichick has gone out of his way to praise Ronnie for being a complete back, a guy who "is the most complete RB that we've faced since LaDainian Tomlinson". That's pretty high praise from a guy who is one of the best football minds in the NFL. There were stories posted here that quoted players within our division that named Ronnie as the one player that they hated to face, there is a reason for that, Ronnie uses his speed and strength very well to punish would be tacklers. He's a great asset in the passing game, he has by far the best hands of any RB in the AFCE and possibly the NFL.

Again, yearly stats are misleading if you don't know how to look at them and understand the differences in offensive systems.

 

What's unique?

Ronnie Brown is a back that can on one play take the ball 70 yards for a TD with his speed, and make cornerbacks wonder why o why they didn't choose another profession on the next play as he lays them on their *** en route to another score. THAT, my friend, is unique. Most backs can do one or the other, but not both. In fact, the one play that stands out in my mind is his rookie year vs. Chiefs when he takes a quick pitch, turns the corner, lowers his shoulder and puts the safety to the ground, on his ***, then sprints 70 yards for the TD. Can somebody post a video for those who haven't burned that play into their memories? To be honest with you, I've only seen two other players do that in my life. Earl Campbell and Walter Payton. Not saying they're comparable to Ronnie, but I am saying that when someone of my age has only seen that kind of play twice in all my years, THAT'S UNIQUE!!

 

Its in my mental roladex.

The man's skills are changing the game, thats how unique he is..

 

MAN does he love to turn the corner and lower his shoulder...remember when he did the same run against the raider corner, the angle he took while rounding that corner{aggressive} all the while lifting up right before contact then lowering his shoulder and exploding into the defender.. he didnt take it the distance but it was just as impressive..well, almost.

 

How can he miss, running behind the vaunted Spermwhale-5?

 

lol...23rd, you gotta laugh man. we all must laugh at ourselves sometimes.

 

I agree that was a sweet play, but in no way does it equal Earl Campbell knocking Isiah Robertson or Jack Tatum on their butts when they tried to come up and stick him.

 

But...

I want that nickname, so I'm gonna shut up.

 

His YPC are high, but so far in his career, he has been a tandem back. Why would we pay Ronnie Brown elite money if he is a tandem back? That's what I am arguing. Sure, his YPC are high, but they are on limited carries. Other elite running backs have 4+ plus YPC with more carries than Ronnie Brown.

 

Adrian Peterson. He has better break away speed than Ronnie Brown, and is just as hard to take down.