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Rooney rule, Minority Coaches, and the Dolphins

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Puka-head, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    I would like to salute Steven Ross for walking the walk.:salute:

    There were a few articles came out today that made me think about this a bit. It's that time of year where 32 very successful businesses are evaluating their leadership positions. These are unique businesses that have their own set of regulations above and beyond civil and criminal law. One of those unique regulations is the Rooney rule.

    Here are a couple of the articles:


    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nf...dys-going-to-tell-them-who-to-hire/ar-BBYLdrt
    Marvin Lewis basically says they are going to hire whoever they want, nobody is going to tell them who to hire. Specifically in this case the Cowboys but he made it clear he was speaking to all the owners.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nf...ersity-problem-and-they-don-t-care/ar-BBYKVlM
    An opinion piece, not invalid, not factual.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nf...ersity-problem-and-they-don-t-care/ar-BBYKVlM
    Sherman making the point that failed head coaches who are white get more second chances than minority coaches get first ones.

    Which leads to this article, the most thought provoking one of the day for me. If this comes true it will be a damn shame for the NFL game.
    https://sportsnaut.com/2020/01/agen...ack-coaches-from-the-nfl-to-college-football/

    I personally feel very strongly that diversity is strength. I also strongly believe that given an equal playing field, let the best person win regardless of physical appearance. My high school Social Studies teacher Mr Van Horn in 8th grade expressed my adult philosophy better than I ever could.
    "It takes all kinds of people to make up a world. And they are ALL CRAZY! Some of them just hide it better than others."

    And that's why I'm saluting our owner Steven Ross, for putting in the work to make a better world. The Dolphins are the most diverse of those 32 businesses, and that starts at the top.


    I know this thread could quickly go sideways and turn into the kind of political brawl that cost us the POFO. So if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I'm fine if no one replies at all. But I hope we will all take a minute to think about it.
    :flag:
     
  2. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Well said.
     
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  3. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I read one of those articles and I was like, Meh...social engineering.

    I'm one of those folks that really truly believe you get the BEST person to do a job, regardless of their skin color. When it comes to such things, I'm completely color blind. The particular article I read stated that more offensive coordinators are selected for head coaching positions that defensive coordinators, but that there are more black coaches in the defensive ranks than the offensive ranks. Why that is, I have no idea.

    I personally think that some coaches are given more chances than they should have...and some aren't given enough of a chance, regardless of their color. Vance Joseph's firing in Denver was NO surprise to me. He never should have been a head coach anyhow. He was a dumpster fire of a defensive coordinator and never should have had THAT position.

    Adam Gase should also be fired. He had 3 years in Miami to prove himself and failed and immediately gets hire by the dumpster fire of the New York Jets. I attribute Gase's continued employment in New York to that organization's overall ineptitude.

    Wile I understand the spirit of the Rooney rule, an effort to bring fairness and racial equality to the coaching ranks of the NFL but at the end of the day, the only color fans see are their team colors and they don't care what color their head coach is...just so long as their team is winning.

    A trend I'm seeing a lot of lately is coaches always being coaches and never being players. Some of the greatest head coaches of all time...Paul Brown, Curly Lambeau, Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, etc....were all players. Coaches nowadays, for the most part have been anything but coaches. I think that is a factor that is often overlooked when it comes to quality coaching.
     
  4. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Personally, I don't care if we're diverse or not so long as we win. We can be all black, all white, all Hispanic or mixed for all I care. Just get us people who are good at their jobs. I thought Flores did well year one so keep him for another. Grier should be fired for getting rid of Tannehill and trading for Rosen.

    As an aside. Just responding about Gase. That guy is the weirdest coach I've ever seen. It's 4 years and I still can't make up my mind about him. He clearly has social skill issues but record wise, the guy took that fire dumpster of a team and finished the season 6-2 and three of his losses came when he was starting a third string QB. I understand that people think he can't coach. His brand of football is painful to watch but his teams almost always outperform their roster. What should be a 5-11 team ends up 7-9.

    I think I need to see him have one year where his team goes relatively injury free to make a final evaluation on him. The guy is cursed injury wise never in 4 years having a healthy team.
     
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  5. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    What you do or feel is not indicative of what others do or feel however - a larger scale issue like this can't just be dismissed due to personal belief or action. It's hard to argue the league is colorblind when it's having this issue and it's plain to see. They want minorities - and specifically black men - to be a large part of the labor force (with all the inherent injury risk and quality of life problems) and consumer, but seem averse to consistently giving them leadership roles. Last years hiring frenzy to claim coaches that breathed the same air as Sean McVay, watching a dude who just coached maybe the worst Patriots unit as an assistant that was a grad assistant like 4 years ago, a small school college coach hired to a near record rookie coach deal, Mike :censored: McCarthy. You pointed out the obvious in Gase as well. Here in Detroit, we saw Jim Caldwell fired after a losing season with the (white) GM saying "it wasn't good enough". What happened? He hired his (white) buddy Patricia and have promptly had two WORSE seasons, yet they both get the benefit of the doubt and are returning again. It's worth pointing out that this doesn't necessarily need be due strictly to racism either - but implicit bias, familiarity and more play a role in things like some guys getting less chance to start with, less additional chances, less time to prove themselves, quicker triggers, etc. It's OK to note these things happen, and it's OK to actively work to help shift the status quo to give more people similar realistic opportunity.

    What the solution is, I am not sure. Nor frankly am I sure the NFL really cares outside of basic lip service - as long as they are making cash hand over fist, these types of things generally try to get swept away under the rug. But I think it is disingenuous a little to say "nobody cares" otherwise this discussion wouldn't exist. If the NFL did care, it would probably mandate the Rooney Rule apply to positional coaches, maybe start a coaching academy for ex-players, give bonuses to owners who hire minority candidates with league funds, have a league rep present for interviews to make sure they are full and legit interviews and not shams, heavily fine teams that don't abide, etc. Probably some of these will be unpopular, which is fine, but sometimes incentives work better than punishments.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  6. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I think the Rooney Rule is good in theory but I'm not sure it or any other rule can do what it intends to fully.

    If a team is actually not hiring a black or other minority as a HC due to racism, forcing them to interview someone usually isnt going to help get that person a job with said organization.

    If they are seen as just someone who was interviewed due to a rule I can see that negatively impacting things.

    That said, having no rule doesnt help either. So it is what it is and is probably at least somewhat positive in terms of results, though not as much as it would seek to be.
     
  7. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Steph Ross didnt hire Flores and Grier because he wanted to diversify.. He hired them both because he thought they were the best candidates for the job. He’s got too much at stake to do so for any other reason than that.

    the problem I have is that, there are very high qualified black coaches that have not gotten a chance yet. Like Bieniemy in Kansas City. Kris Richard needs his shot too. They don’t even make it to a second interview..

    hell there are experienced black head coaches like Lovie Smith that would be deserving of another shot.. Look what Lovie Smith has done for the Fighting Illini this past season - his team beat Wisconsin AND Michigan, two powerhouses in his conference. Illinois is a doormat in that conference. Herm Edwards may be deserving of a shot too.

    im not saying hire black head coaches just to hire, im saying there’s no reason to reject the very high qualified ones for a position. I never thought for one second that Leslie Frazier was a good hire for Minnesota.. but you have to give a high qualified coach regardless of color their shot, and it has to last more than one season unlike what the Cardinals did to Steve Wilks who by the way runs a great defense.
     
  8. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    There is an article on Sun Sentinel that I don't have a subscription to about Ross being given an award before the Super Bowl that I can't post/read. Anyone able to provide a link or some content from that article? I really do appreciate Ross, above and beyond football he really seems to be a righteous soul brother.
     
  9. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    And thanks to those who replied in a civilized fashion to the point of the thread. I too agree that the best/most qualified person for the job should get it. We all know that's not reality. The key to the point is...an equal playing field. Representational leadership is hard, maybe impossible on this (NFL) micro level. But the NFL is a fairy tale representation of the American dream for some, and a true oligarchy for others and reconciling those two totally opposite dynamics is difficult at best.

    I do believe our Oligarch is better at it than the other 31.
     
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  10. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's the way in life. Fair isn't always equal and equal isn't always fair.
     
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  11. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Incentivize teams to take a longer look at minority head coaches. I've always wanted to see teams get a break on the salary cap for players that they draft. Any contract after the rookie contract (or at least three years into it) only counts 90% toward the salary cap. Any team can do this for three drafted players total. Minority coached teams can do it for FOUR drafted players.
     
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  12. Drizzy

    Drizzy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh I think pressure to keep the last black GM in the league played a factor in keeping Grier.
     
  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Evidence?
     
  14. Drizzy

    Drizzy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I mean I’m not just pulling this out of thin air, it was written about.

    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...e-could-spark-overhaul-of-miami-front-office/

    The wild-card in all of this becomes Grier. After the retirement of Ozzie Newsome, Grier will become the only minority G.M. left in the NFL, and there soon will be plenty of external pressure placed on the league both to rectify the situation and to not exacerbate it. The league could then turn that pressure toward the Dolphins, and the Dolphins may feel compelled to find a way to keep Grier, even if the new head of football operations (whatever the title) wants to hire his own staff.
     
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  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Honest question....in the blurb you posted, do you know what the words I bolded and enlarged mean?

    Follow up question....do you know the difference between facts and opinions?
     
  16. Drizzy

    Drizzy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What, you really think Grier was even close to the best option available? You don’t think a group like the Fritz Pollard Alliance made some noise behind the scenes?
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I do not.

    Ross is loyal.
     
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  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Stop.

    Answer the questions asked of you.

    You, drizzy, of your volition, passed off an opinion as irrefutable fact. Defend that with meaning. Don't try to play gotcha bull**** by changing things around.

    Do you or do not understand what you posted was an opinion and not reported fact, yes or no?
     
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  19. Drizzy

    Drizzy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No I didn’t.
    Yes, clearly. Pretty sure my original statement was I think it played a factor, I didn’t say I know for a fact it did.
     
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  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Jesus.

    You said there was pressure to keep him and then to back it up you posted an article that assumes there was pressure. Not reported that there was pressure, but guessed there was pressure.
     
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  21. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    No. He didn't. He said "I think..." not "I know". He then posted an article that amongst many other speculations expressed the same opinion that the league could apply pressure on the Dolphins.

    Easy killer.
     
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  22. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    It's possible to dislike the decisions of the GM or coach without caring about the color of their skin. It's possible to hire or promote the GM or Coach because of the color of their skin. Ross received a lot of criticism for his party with Trump. Ross has used his platform as an owner to promote policies/procedures that are focused on the color of people's skin.
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I asked for evidence. He provided opinion.
     
  24. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I do think, in my opinion...the NFL is trying to present themselves as an organization with diversity ranging from the top down, wanting minorities not only in head coaching positions but also in the executive positions. Like I said, that's just MY opinion with no real fact to back that claim up, but as I stated earlier...when it comes to NFL fans, if your team is WINNING the only color fans see is their team colors and not the color of the coaches or organizational staff...just my opinion.
     
  25. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Here is a prediction, the next commissioner will be black. Troy Vincent is most likely next in line.
     
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  26. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Hats off to Ross. Keep shining the light sir!

    https://www.miamidolphins.com/news/dolphins-honored-for-their-diversity-tagliabue-award

    "And I think this is where Miami comes in. We're looking for extraordinary leaders and I applaud Stephen Ross and Tom Garfinkel for recognizing the voices of all stakeholders, and it's a powerful statement to say that the game belongs to everyone. No one has done that better than the Miami Dolphins."
     
  27. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Difficult for me to imagine any owner in the league NOT choosing who he felt was the best candidate simply because his skin color is darker than his.

    Save Jason Garrett, I'm not sure a coach was retained for too long more than Marvin Lewis in CIN.....that dude was mediocre on the regular and still kept his job 8 years too long.

    I think you can make a strong case for Bienemy however. Yes, he is calling plays that the mad genius himself drew up but so did Matt Nagy. I see Eric being first in line next season.

    In regards to Saleh however, Im not sure one good season with the most talented front 7 in football merits a quick promotion.

    As far as ST coach Joe Judge who seems to be the poster boy for the cries of racism? Please try and remember that that same Giants organization hired him over the likes of Josh McDaniels who has as decorated a resumé as you will find for an assistant. Why was HE not hired? Most likely because X owner didn't see him as a fit. Just like the others.
     
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  28. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 To 2020, and BEYOND! Club Member

    I'm with everybody who says I don't care about their color, just be good. The military is a wonderful world for diversity and learning to appreciate, respect, love and work well with people from all backgrounds, ethnicities, religions, etc. It's a veritable mosh pit of a mixing pot...as long as they meet the physical requirements, I believe every American citizen should have to do four years, but that's just me ;)

    I also don't believe diversity for the sake of optics is a strength. Which is why I really don't like the Rooney rule. Bringing in coaches that get interviews with a team when it's already OBVIOUS who they're going to hire, is demeaning and wrong...imagine if they were honest and were like, "we're only interviewing you because you're black, we already have our coach." There may be a real problem with minority coaches and GMs getting hired in the NFL, but how do you approach and correct it? The Rooney rule sure doesn't do it. Maybe they need to put together a panel to look into irregularities like some of the ones mentioned in previous posts...hell, maybe they already have one, I don't know.

    You're always going to have racism...in every walk of life and industry. And in most cases, unless they're plainly obvious about it, nobody will be the wiser. It's disgusting, but where people are involved, it will exist, sadly. I am 100% all about calling it out and punishing it when it rears its ugly head. I'm one of six admins in a 6000+ member Facebook group consisting of Navy Chiefs...current and former...and I've had to kick several (probably 15+) over the past few years for being racist in their activities in the group...people from various ethnicities. It's just disgusting that people can still be that way...in 2020.

    Think about how hard it would be to stamp out a racist owner, that didn't make it sickeningly obvious he/she was racist...like the somewhat recent basketball owner did. The commissioner works FOR them.

    When the Dolphins hired Flores, my first thought was just like it was when they hired Gase and Queasy..."man I hope this guy is the goods." And so far, I'm all in. And I think the Rooney rule didn't have anything to do with it...they honestly thought he was "the guy" going forward, so they pulled the trigger.
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    The Rooney Rule is not perfect but it has lead to some coaches getting jobs that they probably wouldn't have gotten or would have waited even longer.

    Getting a coach interview is very difficult and just getting in front of the owner is a wonderful opportunity even if you are there just to satisfy a mandate.

    I think the rule should be expanded that all coaching jobs should have a least five interviews no matter. So many coaches need the opportunity to interview but rarely get it.
     
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