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Roquan Smith

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Redwine4all, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    I hear ya on Edmunds, and I am not saying we shouldn't take him, but if we do we need to look at him as a project with the potential to have a very high upside, in my uneducated opinion. The dude is young and he is raw. Until, I probably should say if, he manages to put it all together he may end up hurting us as much as helping us. He's not a guy who based on what I have read is going to help us much right away, I don't believe. As fans, we are going to need to be patient and understand that he might not bring much to the table until he gets some serious coaching and puts the time in. Sometimes, there is no substitute for game day experience.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
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  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, man. He does have a lot of potential, but I don't think it's just potential. I think he can contribute right away and I think he can just get better. Your points could be said for most rooks and he has already been productive in a tough conference. I don't think he is going to hurt us. He's not a late round guy with a bunch of deficiencies. I think he's really good and can get much better which could be scary. JMO.
     
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  3. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I don’t agree with Edmunds is such a huge project at all. I’d plug that in as base strong starter and nickel mike without hesitation and live with the growing pains banking on 2 years from now having a more finished product.

    Where my hesitation lies with Edmunds is simply as a nickel mike it’s more projection as to what his ceiling is in terms of read and diag than it is tape at this point.

    Josey Jewell has better instincts I’d tell that to anyone who ever asked me. But he doesn’t have the same ceiling or upside. Edmunds is going to be a poa monster that’s as easy a thing to bank on as you will ever find in a lb for the next level. He checks that box off in spades.

    But in order to be a perennial all pro and true elite lb his box instincts and feel must get better more natural. I think projecting instincts is the most dicey and risky thing at lb you can do. There is hesitation in his box game. I see it as more than just lack of reps and just overall instincts. But I do think with reps and recognition it will get better. I just don’t project luke kuechly level ever in that regard.

    Now the counter here is miamis scheme seems to prefer poa and gap fill over true instincts anyways read run react to pass but gap integrity and accountability above all else. And I’ve never seen a lb come in the league at 19 that sniffed Edmunds in that regard. Hell I may have never seen a lb period with that size and that thump and that fluidity in the hips. Most guys that size are stiff straight liner types. This kids a rare breed.

    As for minkah on tape I think he’s the most assignment sound and accountable player in the draft. When he has outside contain he forces the ball inside on repeat. If he gets beat he overruns the play in the open field or gets rubbed out at the los in the tight red. Both easily correctable with his football iq and overall skill set. Break down a little more come in not so hot and he will learn that in the pros cause while he’s a good athlete he’s not an elite one and that’s why miami has a chance a good chance even imo of seeing him come pick 11.

    There isn’t much single high on minkahs tape so that’s a bit of a projection in terms of center field play but I think the best comp I’ve seen and test wise they mirror each other almost to a t is Malcolm Jenkins. Keep in mind that the eagles just won a super bowl running Malcolm Jenkins under gronk all game long. Minkahs not gonna match the physicality of a derwin james vs size but his football iq his ball skills his range his speed are all plenty good enough to run under tight ends in addition to he can carry coverage in the slot play some hybrid box stuff and single high. It’s another chess piece for Miami. And it’s a lockerroom leader and assignment accountable piece.

    A Josey Jewell add probably means Raekwon gets kicked to strong in base and then Miami has Jewell at mike with a conpetition in the nickel of Kwon Jewell anthony Kiko for two spots. And I think people need to wrap their heads around one of those pieces being Kiko.

    Wildcard in all this with a minkah or Derwin james add at 11 being tj McDonald.

    I’m a big Jewell fan admittedly I think if he gets out of day 2 the leagues lost cause even if he only gave you 2 downs those guys get drafted as plan a’s at least by the end of day 2.

    And his instincts can’t be taught. They are plus just like Kiko and raekwon possess plus instincts at mike.

    But the offset here is he’s not elite at the poa the instincts have to offset the speed and the range in the nickel (which I think they can) in some things and Miami has to scheme to hide him a little bit in carry coverage.

    You make this add and if I’m playing you I’m forcing you in the nickel to test your range and cover at lb as much as possible but frankly you make any add not named Roquan Smith and I’m testing your range at lb anyways in the nickel. You add quan and I’m trying to find him in the run game.

    So none of these are perfect adds be it scheme or player skillset. The closest one I can find in terms of scheme ask being Edmunds.

    Micah kizer is another thumper tackle to tackle mike that fits the scheme that would interest me but it would have to be on day 3. Cause I can’t get away with that dude in the nickel. He lacks play speed and range and it shows on Uva tape on repeat. But he’d give us the tackle to tackle thump and poa fill play. And he’s another high character locker room leader.

    Anyways to close I think at lb the best value for your draft buck in the class is Josey Jewell. If he’s drafted and asked to do things that fit his game and skill set I will be surprised if he doesn’t long term grade out as a 2nd round pick top 50 pick even worthy asset.

    Whatever we do I damn sure hope we pluck a lb by end of day 2. No way I want to go into 2018 status quo there even with a minkah add. The tj McDonald thing for me at least as a lb involves too much projection to just check that box with what’s in house.

    And I’m a non believer in Stephone Anthonys feel for the position in anything other than primary assignment. I see no real ability to adapt real time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I had Stephone Anthony as a bust pick when he came out, I see some similar traits in Edmunds..
     
  5. DolfanR

    DolfanR Member

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    There's this cb ... I know we have a lot of depth at that position but someone please go look at Isiah Oliver from Colorado.
     
  6. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    If I understand correctly, it looks like to me Hoop is saying that our scheme is POA and Gap fill rather than instinctive. Maybe that's why they can get away with players like Anthony who if they don't overthink it and freelance will be doing everything Burke wants them to do. Of course this could be player driven and not scheme driven and maybe it will change if we do get someone really instinctive. At least I would hope Burke will tailor our scheme to our player's strengths, but it may not be as simple as that. One guy lacking the mental acumen could hold everyone back.
     
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  7. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Draft “faller” if you want to call it that Minkah Fitzpatrick

    Draft riser Harold Landry. 3rd edge off the board possible top 15 pick
     
  8. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    His measurables look like Charles Harris except he has longer arms and seems to be faster and more agile. Hmm...
     
  9. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Probably projects more as a 34 olb but he’s the one 2nd tier relative to Bradley chubb guy that I think could fit the wide 9 hand in the dirt.

    He killed it at the combine.
     
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  10. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Malik Jefferson reminds me of of a more explosive Philip wheeler and I don’t mean that in a good way.

    I think I’d be saying he’s “late” a lot with the off the los lb ask.
     
  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I lived in Austin throughout the Malik Jefferson era. He committed early to Texas and served as a big time recruiter trying to get others to join. On the field however, he just never lived up to the hype. While not bad, he never realized his potential and promise and never excelled to the level his measureables say he should. There were also questions about his on-field leadership and desire to really play the sport. I would be hesitant to draft him anywhere before day 3.

    Some of the Texas DB's are interesting though as mid round guys.
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Players like Anthony and Edmunds are gonna get exploited, they may make those flash plays when they know whats coming pre snap or have a one on one responsibility, but instincts will always prevail when trying to stop pro offenses, coordinators are too smart..

    Id rather have the guy who struggles a bit with shedding some blocks and teach him up..you can teach a player with instincts and athleticism to use better technique in that dept..cant teach instincts,of course he's young so more experience will help him develop but im not taking that risk..looks like an athlete playing football to me..

    and production is not the determining factor in whether his skills translate.

    stephone anthony had 15 tackles for loss and 5 sacks one year..edmunds had almost the same line last year.
     
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  13. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    Dude, you got me thinking...

    Serious question for everyone: Could Zach Thomas ( one of my all time favorites) be successful in the NFL (or as a Dolphin) today? If not, why not? If so, why?
     
  14. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    doubt Holton hill is even on miamis board. deshone Elliott has a strong safety look to him to me. can't carry coverage in the slot which provides less value and looks flat footed to me at times on tape. got away with it in college though. ball finds that kid though no doubt about it. has a knack for being in the right place at the right time. capitalizes on qb mistakes. errant throws etc he gobbled up.

    doesn't have the versatility imo that a derwin james or minkah provide. ive seen Harrison smith comps though.

    I want to take a look at the Stanford kid reid.
     
  15. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Again, you are exagerating Edmunds lack of read skills. They are definitely not as bad as you are making them out to be. Even with his minor deficiencies in diagnosis he is ready to be a day 1 starter and is a perfect fit for our scheme. Edmunds is a much better prospect than anthony ever was. It's not even close. Edmunds is a once in a generation type prospect. We will be lucky to get him at 11.
     
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  16. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree that physically Edmunds is a once in a generation talent. However, there are definite flaws to his mental game. Can he be taught? Can he learn the complexity of the NFL? If he were available at 11 I'd personally take that chance. However, there are definitely arguments for not drafting the kid. I don't think Deej is exaggerating anything. He has his opinion like you have yours.

    Bottom line, the draft is about people with opinions choosing the players they like. I love Edmunds. I love Smith. I love Vea. I love Mayfield. I love Minkah. I love James. I love Allen. I love Rosen. I like Darnold. I love Payne. I love Chubb. I like Hurst...I could go on and on. Any or all of these players could bust.
     
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  17. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah Dan I know. You love everybody, and you get mad whenever I try to criticize anybody. Deej does have a right to his opinion, and I have a right to think that he is exaggerating.

    I didnt say edmunds doesnt have some flaws, but he is making out to seem like edmunds is bust material. Which he is not. He is the #1 rated linebacker on multiple boards for a good reason, and his underdeveloped insticts are not as bad as deej is saying they are. As I said before the floor for Edmunds is solid starter, the ceiling for him is HOF, and he is a perfect fit for our scheme. We cant go wrong picking him at 11 which is what deej seems to have a problem with.
     
  18. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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  19. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, it's a very real possibility that he will be there at 11, but I don't think we should pick him. Doesnt really fill a need for us and he is not a huge upgrade over what we already have. He is not a center field high safety with the range and speed that we need.
     
  20. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Yeah and I don't know how Maurice Smith is doing. Haven't followed as much as usual. Anyone hear anything? I know the coaching staff liked him before his appendix ruptured or something as a FS.
    .
     
  21. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    My perception was that Zach Thomas did not slow down when you put pads on, his physique was more about power than speed. Every now and then players will fall because their measurables in shorts isn’t that great but because of their physique once you add pads on they play as fast or faster than guys with better track times.

    The NFL is all about production, and if you produce on the field you will play. Havinh poor measurables means you are much les likely to be given an opportunity to play.
    Seriously, Zach was very lucky to have JJ as his head coach, because Wannstadt, Saban, Cameron, Sparano or Philbin would not have given a 5th round rookie the starting MLB job.
     
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  22. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yeah he's very good. He's going to remind Miami of Xavien Howard. He's a top 40 pick. Big, long, quick, tough. He's got a lot going for him.
     
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  23. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I don't think TJ McDonald is a caveat to Miami drafting James or Fitzpatrick. He's not a caveat to Miami trading down and taking Jessie Bates or Justin Reid. He's making $1.4 million this season so he's in a fight to start and potentially a fight to even make the roster. That much was clear when Coach talked about the safety spot at the owners meetings.

    Edmunds is the greater fit for this defense but I don't think he's going to be there. I also think people talk about instincts and things - his tape from the end of the season is vastly different to his tape from the start of the season. It's not even close. He looks a totally different player. I also think a lot of people are going to lose their collective minds if Roquan is there and Miami passes because he's not a true scheme fit at all. At 230lbs he was protected an awful lot at Georgia. Don't get me wrong, he's really good. But in the wide 9, he's not getting that protection. I think if Fred Warner were 15lbs heavier, he's a first rounder and I'll be intrigued to see what Miami think of him, even at 232lbs given his hands, instincts, run fit and coverage ability.
     
  24. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    Discussions like this are teaching moments for me. Earlier on in the process, I would have said that Smith is a guy I wanted. However, thanks to everyone tossing it back and forth (Thank You!), I have come to realize that Smith isn't a good fit for us. I am just a typical fan, I lock in on someone based on what I read or watch on youtube, but I really don't know.


    Taking the aforementioned into consideration -that I don't know jack- and assuming James and Edmunds are off the board. My wish list at 11 with no trade down:

    1) Mayfield - if he is there, I am not sure how we can pass. We need a legit QB to develop for post Tannehill. I sort of hate having to go QB, but this a QB driven league. You have to have a good one or you're toast. Can we keep putting it off?

    2) Fitzpatrick - a jack of all trades DB we have been missing. Might be able to help us tailor our defense week to week depending on the strengths of the offense.

    3) Maurice Hurst (3 tech) - since we want our DT to get after the QB why not have a guy with a great first step. Vea and Payne might be more stout and better against the run, but they have slower get offs. In our system and considering who he has to play next to, we need a guy who can make things happen on their own. I think this guy will be more disruptive than the others and since our defense is designed to play with a lead so why not get the best pass rusher of the three?
     
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  25. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I wasn’t aware tj is making only $1.4 mil in 2018 but at that price relative to what 3rd string tight ends are even getting in free agency at $8 mil per I think miami has to carry him and find a role a least.

    Justin Reid is from what I’ve seen so far the opposite of minkah in that the athlete is better than the tape. I think he needs to find work quicker I watched a couple tapes and the ball went by him more than I’d like to see in a plan a starter. But I also understand that test scores drive guys draft value and the team will see a lot of upside there. I hope they also see the injury history his brother has had only a few years into the nfl. Eric Reid can’t stay healthy. We need to learn from our pouncey brothers medical history not repeat it.

    Where do you see mark Andrews value in terms of where I have to pluck him if I want him? These tight ends all runs sub 4.7 pretty much which is going to boost their draft stock. Not many 4.8 plus plodders in the top 5

    Chance he sees pick 73 or do I have to make a move up to around 60? It’s a hard read for me. Seems to be a pretty consistent projection that all of hurst, goedert (who I still haven’t seen a timed speed on) and Gesicki (who I think is destined to be overdrafted due to wrecking the combine test score wise) will all be gone by pick 50.

    I haven’t seen Fred Warner I will have to check that out. I’m with you in that Edmunds doesn’t see pick 11 nor do I think derwin James does.
     
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  26. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    He can be a fit. And he's a really good player. But there ARE issues.
     
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  27. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Agree on Reid. I'm not sold on him. I think Bates is significantly better.

    You know, on Andrews I think he might go between about 55 and 75. I think he was the best TE in the nation and he's my number one TE but I suspect the more athletic tight ends go before him. I'd take in R3 and run to the podium doing so. I'm not sure he gets there. But Miami have seen a lot of him because he's been catching all the passes that Baker has been throwing whilst they've been there.

    Warner is nice. Ben Fennell and Fran Duffy have some nice breakdowns on Twitter if you can't be bothered to watch games. But his games are strong. Hands, ability to disengage, nose for the ball, speed to the perimeter and coverage skills.

    I think James goes 7 to Tampa. Edmunds COULD be there if Oakland take Roquan who's more of a scheme fit for what Gruden wants. I mean he's Derrick Brooks redux.
     
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  28. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Don't play the martyr. And don't lie and claim that I "love everybody". I'm sitting here telling you about the flaws I see in a lot of players. I purposely wrote "love" and "like" in regards to a few players that may be in Miami's sights. Do you think I'd rather they pick a player I love over a player I like? And why do you think I didn't include a few other players that may be there at 11? Do you think it's because I don't want Miami to pick them? Do I "love" those players? That's being objective.

    What you do is not objective. In fact, you're projecting right now. You fall in love with your guys and then find no flaws in them and then proclaim everyone else that's not your guy trash or "not a good fit". You don't love anybody, but you're not objective enough in your love for the players you want. lol

    I just wrote that I'd take that gamble on Edmunds. If he's there and Miami picks him my head will hit the ceiling from jumping so high. However, I'm not biased or naïve enough to proclaim him as a "solid starter". he may bust and he may be DROY or and All-Pro. And the fact that you don't even consider those things shows that you're very subjective with those you like.

    And I'm sure if Miami picks someone not on your love list you'll just automatically hate them and tell us how much he sucks (Even if they are doing well). Kinda like you do with Harris. lol
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
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  29. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Smith came into the combine closer to 240 than 230. And he ran faster than Edmunds. Smith is about 3-4 inches shorter, but only about 15 pounds lighter than Edmunds. His "lack" of size doesn't bother me. I do see him get pushed around from time to time, but for the most part his instincts, intellect, and physical ability allow him to get past people trying to block him or blow up the play before it starts. If Edmunds had his instincts, and he may develop them, I'd pick him over Smith 100 out of 100 times. However, I do think Smith could and would play well in Miami's defense. However, if they pass him over and get any of the other top 10 caliber players that may fall to 11, I won't lose my mind. lol....

    As for Warner, Smith is heavier and about 1" shorter. But Smith is faster and more athletic. Why do you think he'd be a good fit in Miami's defense, but not Smith? I haven't watched Warner play at all.
     
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  30. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I question how much that means, if any honestly. I would love to see these measureables stacked against quality NFL starters as comparision. Not a bunch of athletes that will never even break the starting lineup at the next level.

    74th percentile while running a 4.46 is all I needed to know those percentiles didn't mean much.
     
  31. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Smith will drop because he gets washed out if he can't run around blockers.

    Edmunds can take on blockers and has fluid hips. We had him in Dion Jordan already. He's your next prototype. He's just 19 and takes way too many false steps. The organization that takes him better be confident they can fix that over time.

    Minkah at FS would be awesome. It's his ball skills that will make him special. Just don't take him and waste him at another position.

    Derwin is an enforcer with limited ball skills.

    The only two that are worth it at 11 are Minkah or Edmunds. If they aren't there, then drop or, **** I dunno, maybe check out Davenport?
     
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  32. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I like that Derrick brooks comp.

    What are you thinking here hybrid safety or wlb with Fred warner? Cause he looks on tape like a strong safety size wise and movement skills. Heck probably more fluid than a strong safety frankly. Closing burst to the ball looks pretty average to me. He’s listed at 6 foot 3 236 I had to do a double take I would have projected 225 max on that frame. Torso looks thin in the midsection again never in a million years would have thought 236 on tape. Height is deceiving I guess.

    As a lb I don’t love his box feel. Not in the action enough between the tackles. Even as a wlb option. Find work more and find it faster. Looks better on perimeter stuff where he has contain.

    I do see the strength in his hands and I do see the athlete. I’m not sure miami would see this as a scheme fit as a lb though.

    Thing that stands out the most to me is his zone drop and zone cover awareness is outstanding. He can feel man and ball.

    I think because it has a bit more of a safety than lb pro projection to me despite the unexpected size it’s a day 3 pick value. And I doubt miami will green light the lb side of it.

    I feel like I also saw this kid senior bowl week and didn’t really flash for me. I put him in the Ian Thomas category that week.

    Also is he overaged like so many other BYU kids who spend 2 years on missions?

    For me a Darius Leonard goes over him.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  33. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    His play weight is 230. I spoke to his linebacker coach a couple of weeks ago. He was jacked up on water at the Combine.
     
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  34. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Ahh yes the water weight gain to show everyone you are scheme diverse and can handle every down poa play.

    4.52 at 236 carrying water weight probably late 4.4s at play weight
     
  35. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Part of Zack's game was being a film hound. He spent hours upon hours studying film to get tendencies. That still translates to todays game.
     
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  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When I watch Edmunds play football I see the flash plays when he knows what’s coming, but at this point and time and the foreseeable future this kid is lost on a football field, there are times he’s playing with his head down and not even tracking the ball..

    I know this isnt a Popular opinion and people are geeked about his athletic ability and size, but as far as being smart on the field, instinctive, he’s very far away from being consistent..
     
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  37. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I’ve seen a lot of lost lb play I would not categorize Edmunds as lost on tape

    But to each his own.

    I thought on tape Roquan Smith was 225. So a play weight of 230 I can see

    228-230 somewhere in there

    Not 253 which is rediculous for Edmunds.
     
  38. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Mando says the teams looking for a starting strong side backer. Nothing fits better than Edmunds. And unless miami has decided Kiko isn’t in the plans after 2018 why would you use our pick 11 on a wlb?

    They moved Kiko from mike after 2017 cause they did feel the poa and fill was consistent enough. We just gave up our best rock dt too.

    I don’t see how they can project moving Kiko back to mike considering that poa play at dt is still such a question mark. If they filled with a vea at 11 then yeah maybe Kiko does go back to mike and the look for a strong side guy or go with someone already in house like chase Allen.

    I know Kiko is best at mike it highlights his instincts and hides the carry coverage but I think the best route would be give Kiko 2018 at weak and draft a strong and nickel mike that is ideal for the scheme

    And I think that’s where Edmunds takes the cake. Makes the most sense

    I think the Roquan interest same for baker mayfield is hype the real targets at backer and qb being Edmunds and rosen.

    Just my read on it.

    I also think minkahs test scores have me a little spooked. I’m not a all out test score guy I know someone who puts his entire board together off test scores that’s just playing odds not evaluation but it’s very obvious the athlete is very average and minkahs been coached as well as any college player you will ever find and also played with a ton of talent.

    Just something to consider. For me it has to be plan c.

    Edmunds and Derwin James at least trumping. Then it’s more vea and minkah with Roquan if Kiko was moving back to mike which I also doubt given raekwon mcmillan was getting all mike reps in camp last year. It seems like the last thing you’d want to do is ask raekwon to make a position switch having played no snaps in a pro game. Not to mention his instincts are best suited at mike. Be wasted more at strong. Yeah it hides the perimeter range of the player more but most bang for your buck I think it’s mike all the way.
     
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  39. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of the big draft experts claim that Edmunds is never lost. He is lost a lot more than I'd like to see from someone who is considered a top 10 pick. However, his freaky athletic ability has hidden some of that in college. Will it in the pros? Most likely not. He will need to up his mental game if he is to become what a lot of people expect him to become. As I've mentioned before, I believe he can overcome that and learn, but it is a risk.
     
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  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I really don’t believe it’s an exaggeration, there are times where he winds up with his head down, not even knowing where the ball is..so many false steps.. im not a big fan of his footwork when he breaks down to square up on a ball carrier or his COD laterally.. he can explode strait line when he sees it, he can drop and clog some passing lanes with his length, but often he doesn’t see it right and he’s guessing..problem is his instincts aren’t good enough to be guessing..
     
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