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Roquan Smith

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Redwine4all, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with the James assessment. I would definitely love to have him at #11 and I do think I'd choose him over Minkah at this point. I did have Minkah higher at one point, but the more I see of James the more I like him.

    Timmons isn't much bigger than Smith and I would hesitate to say that he's a bigger thumper. Smith hits hard and as you can see he can take on O-Linemen. That's not to say that I didn't see him get washed out in college, but for the most part he was able to make the play and get the tackle regardless if he was going through the block or avoiding the block all together. And the "he was protected" at Georgia is true, to an extent. I mean, everybody had their job and Smith did his with an A+ grade. I think he could come into Miami and start from day one and play a 3 down 'backer. I don't see Edmunds being able to come right in and do that.

    I guess my biggest gripe is all this "Player A doesn't fit your scheme" talk and then the attempts to smear that player because a person likes someone else better. Great players play great. I think Smith has the most ability to play great. And for all the physical traits that Edmunds has, Smith isn't really lacking in anything, PLUS he's smarter.
     
  2. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I do agree with this mostly. I see player destroy one player because they like the other player better. Makes no sense. Its okay to like one player more.

    For me right now at 11 I want in this order. Mayfield. Edmunds. Fitzpatrick. James. Smith. I would be ecstatic with any of the 5. (Listed Mayfield because it seems like no one knows where he is going to go)
     
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  3. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn’t surprise me if long term Vander Esch was the best lb in this class.
     
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  4. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I really like Esch. If they were to wait until the second round and were looking for a true LB'er I would be happy with Esch. I'm not so sure I'd go out on that limb with you and proclaim that he may be the best of this class someday, however. lol
     
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  5. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly. If you need to tear down other players in order to make yours look better then yours probably isn't better. lol
     
  6. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Esch instincts are above average already although still not where they need to be yet.

    With that frame if the lb play and ceiling instincts wise catch up he’s gonna be a hell of a player.

    In terms of Miami I think Edmunds and esch would be the top 2 preference wise.

    And I’d bet on esch ceiling instincts wise over edmunds. Esch is also pretty good at the poa but still developing consistency there.

    The only lb I think is truly lost is Malik Jefferson. He has no clue what’s going on inside the tackles. It’s primary assignment all the way. That’s a lot like stephone Anthony’s feel for the position. Late shift or motion and multiple asks and he’s cooked. Late and bait.

    Take away the north south missile aspect of things and Jefferson is a liability imo
     
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  7. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Good effort with the gifs dan, but it doesnt make you right. I am not the only one who says edmunds is a better prospect than smith. Edmunds is ranked as the #1 LB on multiple respected boards. I have never once said smith is terrible and completely sucks, I just said he is not a scheme fit for us and sucks at one specific aspect of the game which is taking on and beating blocks. That one gif you posted of him putting the guard on his *** does not change that fact. In that instance he got a jump on the play and engaged the guard full speed before the guard even got out of his set. That is an exception, the rule is that when a blocker get their hands on smith he goes backwards and gets washed out of the play. I am also not the only one to say this multiple analysts say this as well and most analysts say he needs to be put at weakside in the pros in order to maximize his success and hide his flaws. On the other hand most analysts agree that edmunds can play pretty much any linebacker position in any type of scheme at the NFL level. He doesnt have the scheme limitations that smith does due to his size and abilty to beat blocks and maintain his run fits a lot better than smith without having to be protected from blockers. This is a luxury smith will not have in Miami like he did in georgia.

    I think smith can be a great weakside lb in the NFL, however he does not project well as a sam and especially not in our defense where linebackers are not protected from blockers.

    The consensus opinion amongst the scouting community is in agreement with all I have said about smith. If you think I dont know what I am talking about and that I am just trying to trash smith then you must say the same thing of most analysts opinion of him.

    As for my assessment off harris last year which I know is your real gripe so far I have been proven right on that as well. He did not perform very well last year and if the dolphins were so confident in him they would not have loaded up at DE this offseason where it now looks like Harris will have limited playing time next year.
     
  8. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And I'm not the only one that says Smith can play well in Miami's defense. So?

    The facts are, you're hyping up Edmunds' good traits and hyping up Smith's poor traits. That's not an unbiased assessment nor is it a good way to evaluate a player.

    My .gif is not a rare thing that Smith does. Yes, he typically is so smart and fast that he beats the block and makes the play? Again, so? Who cares if he runs through the block or beats the block? As long as he makes the play, which he does, who cares? Besides you, I mean.

    He got that jump on the OG because he read the play fast. Faster than Edmunds can do. The "rule" is that Smith beats the blocker. Again, who, besides you, cares how he does it? He does it and he does it at an alarming rate. Would he play best at weak side? Probably. Could he play strong? Yes. And if he's a tad below his weak side level who cares? The guy is a stud. I realize that you believe Edmunds could play any LB spot, and one day maybe he can, but today Smith could.

    [​IMG]

    Look how he reads this play and beats the center...I guess that means he didn't beat the block because he was never touched by the center? I guess you would rather Edmunds knock the center off his block, after he takes 3 extra steps because he's unsure of where the runner is headed? GTFO If you were to grade his block shedding on a 1-10 I'd give him an 8 and Edmunds a 9. However, as Edmunds is getting off of his block, Smith is making the tackle because he's already read the play, avoided the block, and beat the ball carry to the spot.

    As for Harris, no. You're 100% wrong. Again, "sacks", which is all that you use for evaluating Harris, isn't everything.
     
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  9. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with james, I have Derwin and Edmunds right now on my shortlist at 11. Timmons did not do well here however so using him as an example of what smith could do for us is not good. Timmoms was beat up by lineman all season. I repeat this defense is not built for lightweight linebackers who dont excell at taking on and beating blocks while maintaining run fits. And now with suh gone there will be even less protection from blockers for our linebackers. We need athletic thumpers like mcmillan and edmunds at linebacker. Either that or change the scheme.
     
  11. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Roquan wouldn’t play strong for me. Schematically that’s a miscast imo
     
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  12. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Agree...he's a weakside backer for us...
     
  13. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    WTF are you talking about? lol...I didn't use Timmons as an example of how Smith would play here. Re-read my post and try again.

    Timmons played really well at the beginning of the season and before he broke down.

    It seems you have no clue as to what this defense "needs".

    The Mike is the one who has to be your prototype LB who is both a big hitter and smart. In this defense he should be able to turn and cover well also. See McMillian.

    The Sam in the UNDER plays 9 technique on the TE. His job on the run is to control the outside gap. He's typically a one-gap player, but his assignment is difficult because of the pass read he constantly must make. This is where you would want your freak athlete like Smith. The Sam in the OVER is more like the Will. However most of the time teams pick a SAM much like an Under team does, and put the better athlete and cover linebacker there to cover/take on the TEs. His assignment is the C-gap but he commonly does stunts with the 9-tech end, and so they often switch gaps. With Suh the Dolphins mostly played in the OVER. I would assume that with Suh gone, and if they can't get a player very similar to him, they will play a lot of UNDER. Which is PERFECT for Smith's skill set. Miami wants a run stuffer at the Sam, but they also want him to be able to rush the passer and leave Jones in coverage on the TE. This means he won’t have to go far to shed the block and make the tackle, or he can hit the TE off the line as he rushes the passer on a pass set. Hell, Wake has played that stacked SLB role quite a bit and he and Smith are about the same size. However, Miami has talked about moving away from this type of play and moving towards the mirror OLB approach. Which Smith would excel at also.

    If the defense is in pass coverage, and if Miami wants to run man, each linebacker is on single coverage of either a TE or a RB. When the offense brings in another WR, you substitute for a 3rd DB... very few LB’ers in the league can handle man coverage on a slot WR. Smith may end up being one of those few.
     
  14. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong dan. Quit trying to stick a square peg in a round hole. Smith is not a good fit for our sam spot. He will not handle strong side blocks well where he is not protected and allowed to run free like he was in georgia. Smith is not "about the same size" as wake, not even close. Wake is 6'3 265, smith is 6'1 230. I will give you that smith would be a good option as a nickel lb and in coverage, but he does not project well as a sam for us because he is not good enough at taking on and beating blocks.

    This is a universally accepted truth among most scouting reports of smith put out by different analysts. Quit trying to argue against it you are not making any logical sense.

    Yes we will occasionaly play the under, but not always, we need a sam who can also play the over especially on running downs.

    Smith is only a good fit as a will or a nickel linebacker for us. He is not a good fit as a sam or mike. This is a pretty obvious and established perception amongst scouts. Stop trying to argue against the obvious.
     
  15. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    My question is, what is the issue with him playing will here? Plug him in there. Its not that difficult.
     
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  16. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Kikos $10 million more than anything else

    That’s why it would surprise me. I don’t think they have decided that Kiko is not in the future plans
     
  17. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're not understanding the wide 9....Re-read what the Dolphins want to do with their Sam and get back to me.

    upload_2018-4-10_10-36-35.png

    upload_2018-4-10_10-39-3.png

    upload_2018-4-10_10-37-27.png
     
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  18. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They wouldn't need to move on from Kiko next season. If he keeps playing like he did the last 11 games last season then he will be cut in 2019.
     
  19. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly.

    It's like saying that because Russell Wilson plays elite in Seattle's offense he couldn't play great in New England's offense.

    It's just stupid.

    Smith, like every single player in this draft may bust and end up out of the league in 2 years. However, saying that you don't want a player based solely off of scheme, especially a special player like Smith, is also stupid.
     
  20. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I don’t see how Russell Wilson could play in new England’s offense

    It’s pre snap and progression read based.

    Nor do I agree with the Roquan fit at strong in our scheme.

    Mike ehh maybe as long as we sacrifice the poa somewhat for the range but hard pass at strong.

    Ideal fit weak under our current ask.
     
  21. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wilson is extremely smart and would need to be coached up for a season, but Brady needed about 7 before he started playing elite...and so would any other QB. Saying that a HoF caliber QB like Wilson can't play in the Pats offense is shortsighted in my opinion.

    Again, the Dolphins want specific traits at strong side. Would Smith fit better right off the bat at weak? Most likely, but saying that he can't play SAM for Miami is also shortsighted. I would think he'd have more difficulties at Mike than Sam.
     
  22. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Brady’s played in the same system for what 13 years i think. It’s at least double digits.

    Our own qb is a fit for that system. Probably the best fit in the league not named Brady.

    Josh rosen fits that system too which is why I’m so bullish on him with Miami.

    For me Roquan fits schematically wherever he’s cleanest to the ball. Anything else is miscast.
     
  23. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Not drafting a really good player because you have an average to below average player currently at the position would be one of the many reasons we as a franchise are in trouble.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  24. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This will be Brady's 18th season in the same offensive scheme.

    I'm not saying that scheme shouldn't be factored in. What I'm implying is that with great players like Wilson (who has shown he can do everything Brady can do and more) and Smith (who has shown he's one of the smartest and physically gifted LB'ers to come out of the draft in awhile), you don't need to worry as much about scheme. Of course you should try to scheme around your players strengths and weaknesses, but when you get a player like Smith it's less of a worry.

    Right now, and I love Edmunds, if you tried to put Edmunds as a Mike in a defense like the Dolphins, I think he'd fall flat on his face. He doesn't have the instincts or smarts to do it. Again, RIGHT NOW. I DO think he may get there one day.

    The ONLY reasons you wouldn't put Smith at Mike is because you have McMillian and Smith's size is not what you'd like there. The only reasons I see people not putting Smith at Sam is because they think he can't get off of his blocks. I agree that he can improve, but it in no way should impact him playing there. I think he could be a day 1 starter at either Will or Sam. I think he would play better at Will right now, but he would play well at Sam and only get better as he learns the NFL more.
     
  25. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    GTFO Dan. Where did you get that listing from wake's high school days? Wake is obviously much bigger than smith. You can tell just by looking at them that wake is significantly bigger and stronger. All of the listings I have seen for wake have him at 6'3 263. Checkout his listing on NFL.com

    You should really stop arguing with me about player evals. You are always wrong. We had this same argument last year when we signed timmons and I said he was over the hill, had lost a step and was not what we needed at linebacker. You argued with me ad nauseam about how I was full of it and start posting gifs just like this to try and show that he was still great. One year later timmons is cut after a terrible season. We all know I was right and you were wrong. Same thing with harris, so far I am being proven right on him too.

    How many times do I have to win these arguments with you until you realize you suck at evaluating players and should not argue with me so much?
     

    Attached Files:

  26. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    He's 19...
     
  27. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Voch Lombardi's YouTube on yeesh will change your mind.
     
  28. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    You have to trust your board.
    If you have the right kind of players showing as being available, you can trade down and come out ahead if your board is accurate.
     
  29. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I got Wake's Ht/Wt from PFR and his combine stats. Being that he's older he has probably gained weight, but not 30lbs.

    Here's a picture of Cam beside Harris. Harris is around 250 (BTW, he was only 235 in college) and around the same height. Wake may be around his size, but he's not 260+.

    upload_2018-4-11_7-36-5.png

    You're delusional and you've been right rarely. Your evals are absurd. You're biased and jump on the wagon of ONE player and run with it no matter the facts that come out after your slobbering. You're 100% wrong about Harris. The only thing you use to judge him, besides not being your guy, is sacks. That's just dumb and lazy. Try harder.
     
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  30. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You are the one that is delusional Dan. Completely delusional. You idiotic attempt at magically making smith and wake "about the same size" in your head is amusing and completely wrong as you usually are. Wake is 260 plus, every recent listing of him has him at 260+. Your absurd attempt at using his innacurate college listings to make him look "about the same size" as smith is stupid and disingenuous. Everybody can see you dont really care about the truth and are just being ridiculous. Yes wake and harris are the same height, but wake is thicker and stronger and has at least 5 to 10 pounds of muscle over harris. Either way its irrelevant because we were not arguing about wake's size vs harris we were arguing about wake vs roquan smith and your completely bogus assertion that smith and wake are about the same size.

    I am always right when arguing with you about players. There has not been one time where you have been proven right arguing against me on player evals. You suck at it, you dont get more points for effort if you post gifs and such. They dont make you right. We have had these same kind of argunents numerous times before regarding timmons, kiko, branch, julius thomas, zach brown, harris, and now smith. You have not been proven right even once. You dont know how to evaluate players. You are very persistent and give good effort, but you are usually wrong.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  31. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    "You idiotic attempt"..."your completely bogus"...how utterly divine, ironic, and perfect....lol

    I used profootballreference.com, simpleton.

    Once again, you're delusional. All a person has to do is go back and re-read through this thread to see that you make up half the things you say and then when you're proven wrong you make up what others say. You don't understand subtly or context because you're blinded by your bias and opinion. You claim that Edmunds is a HoF'er but when I claim that Edmunds is a once in a generation talent and calling him a HoF'er is premature you then claim that I don't like Edmunds. I mean, WTF, are you high?

    I claimed that Smith could play in this defense, give many examples and reasons as to why I think that, and you throw out "he can't shed a block" over...and over...and over...and over. Nothing else. No substance. Which isn't really a surprise from you. However, you don't allow yourself to see other players that aren't on your "short list". This is the draft. Your list shouldn't be short. If we were talking about the top players in the NFL yes, have a short list, but when you're talking about drafting unknowns, and they are unknowns, make your list longer. Sure, have your favorites, but don't dismiss other credible 1st round picks based upon "block shedding" and don't dismiss posters (like deej) who actually know more than you think you know. Try harder. Do better.


    (Edit: You see that Hoops and I differ in our opinions on Smith? Do you see us arguing? No. Do you know why? He brings context and legit reasons and concerns. I respect his opinion because of that.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  32. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Nah. I think Vander esch will be a top 20 pick on upside

    More upside than Rashaan Evans either before or after him
     
  33. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    PFR's listing on wake is wrong and outdated. Wake is currently 6'3 260+. Roquan smith is 6'1 230. Claiming that they are "about the same size" is completely bogus and innacurate. I never said edmunds is a HOFer, I said the HOF is his cieling, and the reason I want him over smith is because he is a much better fit as a sam backer in our scheme which is what we need. My position on smith and edmunds is almost exactly the same as hoops, yet you only argue with me because you have a gripe with me going way back where I have proven you wrong over and over again regarding player evals.
     
  34. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I don’t consider minkah to be a surprise pick to me nor would I consider baker mayfield to be one considering the position value or vita vea for the snaps need but the surprise pick to me continues to remain Leighton Vander esch.

    Although I would think there would be a slight trade down.

    I don’t expect a josh Allen to get out of the top 6. I’ve heard josh Rosen’s intangibles have him dropping I will maintain that Adam Gase would welcome him as an add.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  35. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Surprise pick, if the QB's are gone ... trade back and take a TE.
     
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  36. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    That’s a surprise but to where and what tight end?

    Goedert to my knowledge hasn’t even run a 40
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I doubt it would come to this but if they did trade back and take a TE then it would likely be Mark Andrews.
     
  38. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    We've met with and been linked to him and Hurst I believe, but I don't have any inside or special knowledge. If we are talking surprised though, that would probably be the most surprising to me, even if imo it's a big need. Depends perhaps on whether they think a good one will be available in Rd. 2, and who's on the board before trading.
     
  39. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have no gripe with you. I'll tell you what, let's just start over. Clean slate and all of that. We're both Dolphins fans and I think want what is best for this team. Fair enough?



    Here are a few posts CK made about Garvin. Garvin is slower, smaller, and less athletic than Smith...and yet CK thinks he'd do well as the SAM in Miami's defense. Read on:

     
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  40. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    In the first? He seems solid, I just don't see first round guy. Maybe I am wrong
     

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