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Ryan Tannehill and Matt Moore

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by DolPhinPhan7, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Active Member

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    Who are you happier for? Both did their best for the Phins. Obviously Moore is only a backup but he finds himself backing up one of the best teams in the AFC and producing some good Ws while Patrick Mahomes is out.

    Tannehill is like the Tannehill of old. Producing stats comparable to his best years here. But beating out Marcus Mariotta is a huge accomplishment.

    In a season where Dolphins fans are essentially sidelined, taking moral victories in First half leads, and Ws over Adam Gase and the Jets, it's nice to see these guys doing well on other teams.

    Am I wrong?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  2. M1NDCRlME

    M1NDCRlME Fear The Spear

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    Don't leave Kenyan Drake and Damian Williams out of the conversation. Both played great this weekend.
     
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  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I will always root for Thill.

    He got a bad rap here. I believe he has the potential for a Rich Gannon-esque later career resurgence in a few years.
     
  4. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I will always root for RT17. I think we did him wrong in so many ways. Remember when Philbin had them say "hut" once for run and twice for pass, and didn't see anything wrong with that. I know there are still people on this board that would be willing to give Gase just one more shot, but I never bought it. I personally think that the addition of Gase has actually actually hurt the development of Sam Darnold, but alas, I imagine that people on this board probably still see the "genius."

    I also think that the offensive line was consistently an afterthought. Whether it was a aging vet or a "third round gem," we never really focused significant resources and prioritized the line. That being said, Tannehill would have monster game, when he could set, plant, and read.

    I think in an alternate universe, Tannehill could have panned out.
     
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  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I've been a huge Matt Moore fan since his Carolina days so it's been great to see him retire then come back with success. He's a super good guy that everyone seems to like and it's just a feel-good story for me...he deserves this.

    For Tannehill, there's really not much more to say that we haven't said a thousand times. I still root for him and hope for success, but we all know that he struggles with pressure and that makes his game extremely lopsided. I still believe he deserves to start somewhere though and as long as he protects that football, he will continue to have some success. Some folks here love to say "we saw the real Tannehill this time" but that's all crap...you see the real RT every week regardless of good or bad.

    He's just a really freaking good passer that makes critical mistakes under pressure...I still personally think he has hearing problems.
     
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  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tannehill taking over for Mariota is an indictment on Mariota, for who I got wrong in the draft..

    Tannehill is flawed..but can win some regular season games like we all know...but eventually it’s gonna come.
     
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  7. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I don't really care about either of them tbh. Did they probably get a bum rap here? Yeah, but then that's the case with players all over the league. It's just life. I really don't see either as being anything worth writing about, thinking about or even pining for.
     
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  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    FTR, ^ is you writing and thinking about them. :smile:
     
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  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If I had to win one big game on the road in a hostile environment..

    Moore > Tannehill.
     
  10. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Lol ive watched all the games Moore has been in with the Chiefs.. havent watched much of Tannehill..

    Moore is getting away with some questionable decisions and thrown passes, ill advised thrown passes whilst getting hit.. the fact that he isnt averaging 2-3 INT’s per game is pure luck. Which is why the Chiefs are eager to get Mahomes ready but the doctors are telling them not yet..

    with that said hes played pretty well and has kept the Chiefs within range in the 4th quarter to win..

    i said before that Andy Reid is a top 5 quarterbacks coach of all time. I put him and Mike Holmgren in my top 5 as far as quarterback development goes. They know how to coach them from the ground and up, starting with the footwork. I knew Andy would get Moore ready and have him look good.

    just look at the qbs in years past that Andy and Mike have developed... they just get it..
     
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  11. Big Phin

    Big Phin Member

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    Tannehill didn't leave here on bad terms. He seems like a good dude and I wish him well.
     
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  12. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    This will be a great study in how a change of surroundings almost always means little.
     
  13. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    For Tannehill you mean, I'd assume. I dont think anyone expects Matt Moore to be anything but Matt Moore.
     
  14. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd have to say I'm happy for Tannehill out of all of them. Seemed like a guy who just needed a change of scenery after all he'd gone through here. The supposed "QB Whisperer" coach we paired him with that everyone thought would turn it around for him of course didn't pan out, but early on everyone piled on him thinking the coach is good. Turns out, Tannehill just was what he was, nobody was able to get more out of him and the "QB whisperer" coach is just a complete idiot. Jets are learning that now with Gase & Darnold together.

    I think you're also seeing a Tannehill in Tennessee that's a bit more "free". Likely because he's no longer got the pressure on him of being a first round pick trying to save a franchise, etc. etc. There's just alot of weight off his shoulders I'd bet, and he's playing fairly well right now on a team that's struggled offensively for many reasons. At the end of the day he still is what he is... He's average. He'll flash some above average plays and games here and there, but at the end of the day he's not going to be much more than that unless everything around him is great. The right situation of coach, team & playmakers and he can excel, but he's not the guy who's going to do more than that.

    Either way though, it's just nice to see him get another shot at a starting role. He was a good guy, he gave us everything he had and more every time he stepped on the field for us even though we didn't really give him much help and support. It's nice to see good people do well.
     
  15. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I am aware of the pseudo-irony, but it's like showing someone a picture of a duck and then saying "don't think about ducks". They're gonna think about a duck.

    It's more just that I don't really spend any time actively rooting for them to do well. Tannehill wasn't anything special and didn't really do anything to interest or excite me. Ill chip into the occasional forum post, but beyond that ... If he does well, great for him. If not, whatever.
     
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  16. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    While Moore isn't a bad QB, I wouldn't even choose Moore over Tannehill in a contest to see who can write their last name quicker.
     
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  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    The only situation I would choose Moore is if a quarterback has gotten hurt and you need a quarterback to step up at the last minute.
     
  18. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    Are your thoughts strictly as it relates to QBs? We have seen coaches, RB, Wrs, all types of Defensive talent switch to other teams and either do considerably worse or considerably better.

    I can see how parts of a QB game might not matter where they are, but I can't see them being completely immune to their environments, and I think you would have to be crazy to believe that Dolphins have been anything but a train wreck of a team over the last few years. Not exactly the ideal situation for a person (at any position unfortunately) to grow.
     
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  19. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Ryan Mannehill. The Man of Steel. Iron Tan. I'll always have respect for him. He was behind bad OL after bad OL. He took so much punishment, went through so much mismanagement, and just kept on going. I don't care if he wasn't the best. The guy was the best we'd had in a while and was as tough as nails. I only wish the best for him and hope he has a great rest of his career.

    Makes we want to pull out all those amusing photoshop jobs that were posted a year or two ago.
     
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  20. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  21. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tannehill I respect but don't care much for. He bores me.

    Moore on the other hand excites me. I like how he plays and I like his enthusiasm. I'm more excited watching Moore succeed than Ryan - But wish both of them well. I'm also happy that neither of them are on the team after the great purge of 2019.
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I am the opposite. Moore bores me. An obvious career backup. My favorite part about him other than his attitude is the fact that he looks like a werewolf
     
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  23. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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  24. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Totally misleading.

    First of all no one should ever claim that any QB has a "career best passer rating" after only 3 games started and 117 passing attempts! Let's see what Tannehill's ratings are like at the end of the year. Besides, adjusted to 2019 values Tannehill's best two years (2014 and 2016) give you ratings of around 97 so it's not like 99.7 is world's better even if it's unreliable statistically because of small sample size.

    Second of all, Matt Moore has 91 passing attempts so far for KC. He had 87 passing attempts for the Dolphins his first year under Gase, and his unadjusted rating in 2016 was 105.6, which is already greater than the 100.9 he has without Gase. Adjusted to 2019 that 105.6 becomes around 109 so Moore was better WITH Gase in his first ~90 passing attempts than without him.

    So none of these stats suggest these QB's are doing much better when "freed from Adam Gase". And let's be consistent guys. Don't just attack posts that use stats with small sample sizes when they suggest something negative about Tannehill, Moore or whoever you like. Make sure you disregard stats that make it look like your favorite player is good only because they rely on "small sample size".
     
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  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I get adjusting passer rating pre 2007 to post 2007. Not sure I agree AT ALL with adjusting 2016 vs 2019. What major rules changes occurred in 2016?
     
  26. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    No reason to NOT root for former Dolphins if they aren't on a team you despise.

    I thoroughly enjoyed watching Drake go off in his Cardinal debut last Thursday.
     
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  27. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    The state of the Dolphins team during the period of time you’re talking about has been caused also by the functioning of its quarterbacks.

    You can’t on the one hand imply that the team’s quarterbacks have been negatively influenced by their surroundings, and on the other hand imply that the team’s functioning has had little or nothing to do with the quarterback. The quarterback is either isolated inside of his own bubble or he isn’t.

    It seems like there are a good number of people here who believe that the relationship between the team and the quarterback is unidirectional, where the team influences the quarterback’s play, but the quarterback doesn’t influence the team’s play.

    It’s as if the quarterback has no dispositional individual ability of his own, and he’s simply waiting around for the team to accrue enough talent around him to realize his unlimited potential.

    Hell, if it were actually sound to make definitive conclusions based on small sample sizes, what would you say about the fact that Ryan Fitzpatrick just posted a passer rating of 118.8 amidst all of the supposedly terrible talent on the Dolphins current team?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019 at 8:15 AM
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  28. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    Again you seem to be putting the QB into a magical bubble. Are all the other players not effecting the team they play for? My point isn't that the QB doesn't effect his surroundings, my point would be that all of the other players did to, that doesn't change the fact that some went on to be considerably better or worse when put into a new environment.

    I get it, the QB is more important so has a larger effect on the team as a whole, but because of his exact role I would suspect that he is also more effected by surrounding talent then any other position. As an example a WR that drops balls constantly will effect a great RB on a team indirectly, but the WR dropping the ball effects the QB directly. A bad line will again effect a WR indirectly, however it again effects the QB directly.

    All the problems with the team existed no matter who we put at QB, I'm confident that we saw enough of Jay Cuttler and Osweiller to grant Tannehill a pardon on being responsible for sinking the whole team.

    To your other point, I'm not sure what I said that made you think I'm evaluating anything based on a small sample size, was that meant for someone else's argument?
     
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  29. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I think the main changes were from 2017 to 2018, especially the rule that disallowed defenders to lower their head and initiate contact with their helmet which has made it easier for the receiver to catch a ball, and they also changed how roughing the passer is called even if the letter of the law remained the same. From a pure statistical point of view the difference was vast: average passer rating went from 86.9 to 92.9, which was a 6.9% increase and the largest single year increase seen since 1978. Not all of that was due to interpreting rules differently (there's always random variation and we did have some new QB's like Mahomes, Watson and a good year by Goff), but a good deal of it was.

    Also, most passer rating inflation isn't in sudden jumps like in 1978. Almost all of it is a bunch of gradual incremental changes that over 5 year periods and 10 year periods start to show up as larger jumps. So it's totally fine to use z-scores to adjust year to year, and as you can see the change for Tannehill from 2016 to 2019 is only about 3.5 passer rating points which is quite small.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM
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  30. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I think you're mistaking "football fans" and "fantasy football fans". One cares about career ratings, efficiency, win percentage, etc. The other cares about short term trends so they can tell their friends that they're football gurus...despite never playing a snap.
     
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  31. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I think it’s pretty clear that the goal of that post/tweet with its “freed from Adam Gase” quote was to blame Gase for Tannehill and Moore’s performance. And I think I showed that was clearly false for Moore while it was at best misleading for Tannehill. So this isn’t about fantasy football. It’s about a hypothesis not supported by the data.
     
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  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The average passer rating in 2016 was 86.9? If so, that's lower than other years since 2007. I still disagree that adjusting the rating is actually measuring what you think it's measuring. The passing game/concepts are different today than they were in the 80s.
     
  33. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    No in 2016 it was 89.3 but it went down to 86.9 in 2017. The big jump occurred in 2018.

    And to be clear, z-scores only tell you how the person performed relative to his competition. So as long as that's what you think z-scores are measuring (and I just translated the z-scores to adjusted passer ratings) then there's nothing wrong with using z-scores for every year. What you do NOT want to do is to assume you can transport a QB from one era to another and get the same z-score. That would be a faulty interpretation. But to see how well they did relative to others in that era (or year) this is the correct approach.
     
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