Separation of Church and State

First I want to say anyone who quotes Professor Hubert Farnsworth is cool by me. I also believe every religion should be accepted in America and everyone should be able to practice and worship without fear of the government. That being said what I was telling is what America's roots are and that is Christian. George Washington was a great man of Christian faith as were those who wrote and signed the constitution. I also honestly believe God has honored and blessed our country because of it's devotion to Him. But these days and ages God is being removed from everything while strange religions take it place and we are losing His favor. Why is it that every presidential election the candidates try and convince the public they are Christian? I personally feel we all have the freedom of religion, but not freedom from it. Thanks for the replies and take care.
Futurama rocks!!!!

"Finascious D wrote:

There is an obvious difference between "teaching about religions" and "teaching religion". No one is arguing about the first one.

The Constitution doesn't have to state that exactly. Separation between Church & State, encompasses that nicely.

But it does "force" them to say something they may not believe. It creates the air that you have to say those things in school, or at a ball game, or in court, etc. By having it, you're forcing people to either make a stand or say something they don't mean.

Of course you believe that, and that's fine. I happen to think, its this ferocious attachment to dogmatic beliefs that have caused many of the problems in this country. I think by sticking to it, we've neglected smarter answers to problems that come with an ever growing and socially evolving culture.

It encompasses a simple and accurate ideal (as I listed in Posts 4 & 5): "Madison indicated that a "national" religion was what he wanted to prevent and it is clear that most Americans joined him in considering that the major goal was to forestall any possibility that the federal government could act as several Colonies had done by choosing one religion and making it an official "national" religion that enjoyed exclusive financial and legal support."

God is not a singular Religion. God, the word, the concept, the definition, the belief in, only offends those that claim to have place no meaning in the word, in the beleive. Again, its a small minority of Americans, and catering to the few, who claim to not place any value on the word, is backwards to the masses that do.

Even when the masses do not fully agree on their own definition, they still accept anyones definition, including Agnositics and Aethestist alike. Therefore, we accept you may not place value in the word, but there is no need to remove it, enough has been done already sadly, in that regards.

As far as what has caused many of the problems in this country....I wont even touch that one.

i agree with adamperez. money is nothing more than paper printed properly with the right people backing its value.

maybe it should say "put your trust in the lord. your ass belongs to us". that's a paraphrase from "shawshank redemption" (the movie) for those that were wondering.

"vt_dolfan wrote:

I don't think its a thread starting any thing...its really a legitimate question that has been raised several times...and I can see the point of view of those who may question this.

Im a non Christian...but I do recognize that a tremendous number of people recognize some vision of a Christian god represents, and our founding fathers also recognized this..IMO.

Im becoming less and less conservative as I get older....and while I am an independent voter...I certainly disagree with alot on the far right.

But..I really have a strong distaste for a "PC" culture. Im not Christian...but I dont want to see Christmas trees kept out of schools, or christmas parties. Call them holiday parties..have a dradel...what ever...but taking away Christmas? And trying to get the pledge changed from one nation, under god? No thank you. There's a rich history of our country and god for our country....and I dont want that changed.

I dont want it shoved down my throat mind you...or some holier than tho bible beater telling me what kind of a sinner I am....but I think the words of God in our Government, 10 Commandments in Govt buildings....and Christmas dont worry me in the slightest.

It was actually changed to "one nation, under god." So you would really just be making it like it used to be.

"BigDogsHunt wrote:

It encompasses a simple and accurate ideal (as I listed in Posts 4 & 5): "Madison indicated that a "national" religion was what he wanted to prevent and it is clear that most Americans joined him in considering that the major goal was to forestall any possibility that the federal government could act as several Colonies had done by choosing one religion and making it an official "national" religion that enjoyed exclusive financial and legal support."

God is not a singular Religion. God, the word, the concept, the definition, the belief in, only offends those that claim to have place no meaning in the word, in the beleive. Again, its a small minority of Americans, and catering to the few, who claim to not place any value on the word, is backwards to the masses that do.

Even when the masses do not fully agree on their own definition, they still accept anyones definition, including Agnositics and Aethestist alike. Therefore, we accept you may not place value in the word, but there is no need to remove it, enough has been done already sadly, in that regards.

As far as what has caused many of the problems in this country....I wont even touch that one.

Welfare, unemployment, social security, affirmative action; all these cater to (by definition) minorities.

The gov't caters to minorities all the time, why should this instance be any different?

"Stitches wrote:

Welfare, unemployment, social security, affirmative action; all these cater to (by definition) minorities.

The gov't caters to minorities all the time, why should this instance be any different?

catering to the few from a religious standpoint "who claim to not place any value on the word" is the key part.

And do not get me started on the mistakes of our Socialist pasts for programs like these being run by the Fed. Govt. They have a place and clearly benefit folks that need them, but our Fed. Govt should be removed from the equation.

"BigDogsHunt wrote:

catering to the few from a religious standpoint "who claim to not place any value on the word" is the key part.

And do not get me started on the mistakes of our Socialist pasts for programs like these being run by the Fed. Govt. They have a place and clearly benefit folks that need them, but our Fed. Govt should be removed from the equation.

I personally don't care if it is on the dollar or in the pledge of allegiance, it is just a word, I was just trying to show why some people might think it should be gone. I just don't say that part of the pledge is all.

ahh,,,the legal and logical fallacy of "a wall of seperation between church and state"

A clause that exists nowhere in the Constitution, and a Notion that the Founding Brothers would find...laughable at best, and scornful at worst.

Barry Lynn is a weak willed putz who did himself the favor of dropping the "Reverend" from his title as he persecutes fellow Christians via the courtroom.

America is indeed built upon the idea of worship of a Deity, or indeed rejecting such worship, however, ones rejections should never silence anothers acceptance...

The founders of our country had no problem with religion, specifically, God and the Bible, in schools. The earliest textbooks in our schools were the Blue-Backed Speller, and the Horn Book. Both prominently featured Bible stories and passages to teach the children. Funny, the founders didn't try to get that changed.

"Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his well-worn Bible: “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also.” He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role. Jefferson also declared, “God who gave us life, gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.” Jefferson’s words thunder against today’s liberals who argue for the separation of religion and state. When President, he said, “No nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man and I, as chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example.”

George Washington, the Father of our Nation, in his farewell speech on September 19, 1796: “It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

John Adams: “We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” He also said, “Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.” Again, Adams said that this nation was founded on “the general principles of Christianity.”

Benjamin Franklin, “The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: ‘that God governs in the affairs of men.’ And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?” In March, 1778, Franklin said, “A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district — all studied and appreciated as they merit — are the principle support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty.” Franklin said, “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

First Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay: He stated that when we select our national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select Christians. “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

Benjamin Rush signer of the Declaration of Independence, “The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence, “Without morals, a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.”

John Dickinson, signer of the Constitution and a member of the Continental Congress, said, “The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”

In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

You guys want any more of this? It's pretty evident that our FOUNDERS had zero problem with religion in our government.

Why do you guys want religion in schools and the government?

I'm not saying that I want it in schools. I'm merely pointing out, our country was founded on the belief that for our country to succeed, religion was going to have to be a part of it.

On the other hand, I do believe that the removal of religion, i.e., morals, from our schools has shown a marked degradation in the moral code of our society today.

The point of my post was to show the ridiculousness of the idea of separation of church and state, as currently defined by some people, when compared to the actual quotes and beliefs of the founders of our country.

"resnor wrote:

I'm not saying that I want it in schools. I'm merely pointing out, our country was founded on the belief that for our country to succeed, religion was going to have to be a part of it.

On the other hand, I do believe that the removal of religion, i.e., morals, from our schools has shown a marked degradation in the moral code of our society today.

The point of my post was to show the ridiculousness of the idea of separation of church and state, as currently defined by some people, when compared to the actual quotes and beliefs of the founders of our country.

The marked degradation in our moral code of our society today is something that frankly does not exist. The only difference is we actually call people on their **** and there wasn't cameras everywhere to show how immoral people were.

There have been cheating, beatings, rapings since the days the Puritans landed on this part of the world. Plus now beating children and wives is actually wrong.

"Finascious D wrote:

Why do you guys want religion in schools and the government?

Why Not ? Why do people want homosexuality taught in schools ? By the way relgion is taught in public schools as long as it isn't Christian. Since the Aclu has been fighting removing God from public schools our education system has been going down hill and shootings on school property have increased. Have you ever wonder why private school or home school kids have a better education, and tend to achieve more ?

"bbqpitlover wrote:

Why Not ? Why do people want homosexuality taught in schools ? By the way relgion is taught in public schools as long as it isn't Christian. Since the Aclu has been fighting removing God from public schools our education system has been going down hill and shootings on school property have increased. Have you ever wonder why private school or home school kids have a better education, and tend to achieve more ?

because of religion?

Or because private schools have money and home school kids have constant attention from their parents?

"bbqpitlover wrote:

Why Not ? Why do people want homosexuality taught in schools ? By the way relgion is taught in public schools as long as it isn't Christian. Since the Aclu has been fighting removing God from public schools our education system has been going down hill and shootings on school property have increased. Have you ever wonder why private school or home school kids have a better education, and tend to achieve more ?

I don't even know where to begin with this.

Religions are taught in schools as historical significance, not as how to be a practicing member. No one thinks that is wrong. The ACLU is fighting to remove any inclination that the government prefers one religion over another.

Claiming the problems that exist in school, to be because there's no Christianity in schools, is not only ridiculous but offensive. Especially considering the reason for school problems "increasing" is that the average sedan has shrunk. Look at the stats, as sedans got smaller, school violence went up. They are clearly related....:pity:

The current use and references to God is not supporting ONE SINGULAR religion. The ACLU is a disgrace to American fundamentals. Civil Liberties my backside - they destroy more then they claim to protect.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

The marked degradation in our moral code of our society today is something that frankly does not exist. The only difference is we actually call people on their **** and there wasn't cameras everywhere to show how immoral people were.

Really? So in the 50's teenaged girls were taking topless pictures of themselves and sending it to their boyfriends in class?

As soon as one loses all sense of modesty, then comes the loss of any sense of propriety, let's do it in the hallways and post it on youporn!

Yah!

There have been cheating, beatings, rapings since the days the Puritans landed on this part of the world. Plus now beating children and wives is actually wrong.

And in daoist China, and in Islamic Saudi Arabia, and even in Godless Soviet Union, the idea behind a religion or faith is to mitigate the worst impulses in mankind, of course it will never completely work for every adherent, but that is not for a lack of a foundation, it is mankind ourselves, it is in our nature to do those things.

"Finascious D wrote:

Why do you guys want religion in schools and the government?

Wow, deep, I want Christianity taught in schools starting at the age of 5, baptisms by the age of 11, and Bible studies for 2 hours a day, everyday..

Fall to your knees and repent if you please shall be the only rule in my perfect school system....

:lol:

I see a huge difference between acknowledging the role of Faith in the Public Life and Foundations of the US, or the role it has played in the US, both the good and the bad, from the NE Churches running underground railroads for runaway slaves to the pulpits in the Confederacy that whipped up hysteria against emancipation, let the truth speak for itself, but let it speak.

"padre31 wrote:

Wow, deep, I want Christianity taught in schools starting at the age of 5, baptisms by the age of 11, and Bible studies for 2 hours a day, everyday..

Fall to your knees and repent if you please shall be the only rule in my perfect school system....

:lol:

I see a huge difference between acknowledging the role of Faith in the Public Life and Foundations of the US, or the role it has played in the US, both the good and the bad, from the NE Churches running underground railroads for runaway slaves to the pulpits in the Confederacy that whipped up hysteria against emancipation, let the truth speak for itself, but let it speak.

Wow, way to miss the point.

There's a huge difference between teaching religion's role in history, and forcing kids to pray, or using a completely unfounded concept as ID as scientific fact, or giving the inclination the government chooses one religion over another.

"padre31 wrote:

Really? So in the 50's teenaged girls were taking topless pictures of themselves and sending it to their boyfriends in class?

As soon as one loses all sense of modesty, then comes the loss of any sense of propriety, let's do it in the hallways and post it on youporn!

Yah!

And in daoist China, and in Islamic Saudi Arabia, and even in Godless Soviet Union, the idea behind a religion or faith is to mitigate the worst impulses in mankind, of course it will never completely work for every adherent, but that is not for a lack of a foundation, it is mankind ourselves, it is in our nature to do those things.

They did not have that ability. However if they did, many would still have. If you look at the history of the US the 50s are the exception to the rule and not the rule. Free love was alive and well in the 1920s.

Also the fact that women couldn't make their own living so being a "slut" would hurt their chances of finding a mate and if they couldn't do that then they were chastised and it was harder to survive.

I like how we start out discussing separation of church and state, and I post quotes by the Founders concerning religion's role in our GOVERNMENT, and it turns into teaching religion in schools.

Can we just have an honest discussion about the false idea of separation and church and state? It should be obvious to anyone who cares to look that the Founders were completely comfortable, and in fact were advocates, of Christianity in our government.

"resnor wrote:

I like how we start out discussing separation of church and state, and I post quotes by the Founders concerning religion's role in our GOVERNMENT, and it turns into teaching religion in schools.

Can we just have an honest discussion about the false idea of separation and church and state? It should be obvious to anyone who cares to look that the Founders were completely comfortable, and in fact were advocates, of Christianity in our government.

I honestly do not care. The founders were also against a two party system and yet we have one of those. The founders were for slavery and against women's right to vote or even owning property.

Just like many things that happened with the government, they change and morph into entire new meanings. Like the word gay, queer and silly. The Separation of Church and State right now is beyond the founding fathers.

There is no such thing as Seperation of Church from State...that is a made up phase to have folks anit-religion rally around...its a political slang!

1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (i.e. a Single Fed Govt Religion), or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

God and any reference to or use throughout Govt, is not a Singular Religion sponsorship.

Wow. I'm gone two weeks and miss all this interesting discussion!

It is hard to figure out exactly where this thread is or where it was intended to be but I will try to throw my two cents into the mix.

Resnor is correct. The founding fathers were largely Christian or at least Diests and thus had no sense of excluding religion from everyday, public life.

I do think some of the "witch hunts" of the past thirty years trying to exclude all references to God in government circles have been ludicrious! Yet the concept of "seperation of Church and State" is an attempt to find a (in my opinion needed) line between government non-interference and free excercise.

What has only been slightly referenced in this thread has been the history of how "In God We Trust" and "One Nation, Under God" came into the public realm. Following two disasterous world wars in a generation, the holocaust, the dropping of the iron curtain, and the reality of mass inihilation from nuclear weapons, many people were looking for safety and stability in their lives. Worship attendance in America from '46 until about '64 was the highest it has been since Europe in the middle ages. It was an attempt to find order in the growing chaos of the world.

Is it still a great idea? I don't know. Every time I find it helpful I also get offended by the civil religion that passes for Christianity. As a professing Christian, my creed is "Jesus is Lord" not a committment to any government entity.

Oh well, its my two cents, for what its worth.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I honestly do not care. The founders were also against a two party system and yet we have one of those. The founders were for slavery and against women's right to vote or even owning property.

Just like many things that happened with the government, they change and morph into entire new meanings. Like the word gay, queer and silly. The Separation of Church and State right now is beyond the founding fathers.

You're not exactly right on some of this stuff. The founders weren't necessarily "for" slavery. Jefferson, for instance, wrote many things denouncing slavery. He was a big pusher to have slavery abolished...all while he owned slaves. It is an interesting dichotomy to actually look at the issues that the founders had. We should remember, America, as the founders laid out, was fundamentally different from any country in the history of the world. The founders had an idea for America, and they wrote the blueprint for it. However, they lacked the ability to fully realize all aspects of it during their lives. But, they had the foresight to write a Constitution that gave all men, and women, freedom.