Seperation of Church and State goes out the window yet again.

Sad isnt really a strong enough word. National prayer day is already problematic imo, especially the military having any hand in it, but to make sure that it is limited only to Christian prayer is ridiculous. The balls on some Christians is getting old, fast. What's funny is that they do their "cause" more harm than good.

 

i have no problem with a "moment of silence" which could include a prayer if so inclined. but a denomination specific prayer is.....come on people.

 

Excellent, at least they knew what they were about, Seperation Doctrine is Historically illeterate and pretty much unsustainable by any sort of colourable intellectual consistency other then "Gee, I don't like that..."

 

The hypocrisy is what gets me. Do they end the prayer, with picking up their guns so they can shoot people?

Seriously, why do some Christians think, after reading their Bible, that Jesus would want anything to do with war or government. As a non-believer, I'm offended for the rest of the Christians that actually get what their religion is about.

Forget the separation of Church and State for a minute, which is absolutely legitimate, (just ask John Adams) and see that there is no true Christian way to rectify or reason a way to justify this hypocrisy. If you take up arms against another, you are betraying your faith and the teachings of Christ, because you're either casting the first stone or not turning the other cheek. Its one thing if you're drafted, but if you volunteer to go in, then either give up the faith or put it on hiatus. Either way, organized & sponsored prayer of Christ, has no business in the military, and that's going by the very book the religion is founded upon.

 

Perhaps, then again, perhaps some people need shooting.

finem respice, you have simply no clue what you are talking about, if you had like "read" the Bible, especially the New Testament one would discover how off base yo are, but don't let that get in the way of your ill informed opinions on the matter at hand.

Then I would suggest you empty your pockets of loose change and burn all of your paper money to rid yourself of "In God We trust"

 

Exactly the point.

You're right my bad, Jesus was known to be a violent man, who liked nothing more to bust caps into people who thought different than him. He was also a power hungry mad man, hellbent on world domination. Didn't he invent napalm?

I have read it, and I guess I skipped the Gospel of War.

Wow, hell of an argument!!!! Whatever you do, don't actually rebut with any substance, but make an ill fitted comparison, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I was talking about. Brilliant.

 

this i could agree with you on considering it is not even the U.S. government that issues that money. it is the federal reserve, commissioned by Congress, a private organization of bankers. "In God We Trust" is the only thing of real value on that paper and coin.

 

Exactly the point..that you missed.

"..Extort no one and do not accuse anyone falsely and be content with your pay.."

See, I even left room so you could cut and paste the citation into a Google search bar for you.

Quite.

 

More or less Dolphin1, and even then print enough of them to the point that even that slogan is cheapened and a collapse will occur, or at least the sort of stealth inflation that crushes Social Security recipients into a quite poverty.

I do believe that Drunken Brazilian Sailors have more fiscal discipline then our current Govt does, and my apologies to Drunken Brazilian Sailors for mentioning them in the same breath as our Federal Government.

America's relationship with the Divine started at the beginning of the place, even down to Plymouth Rock, to attempt to say that "Seperation of Church and State" is some sort of Ober Dictum that can be used to safely ignore the fact of the interaction of Providence and the US Govt is simply Historically unsustainable.

 

but don't forget that the idea was for religious freedom in general. not to be assigned to a specific denomination. also to include those that wish to not participate at all, for all to be free from persecution. the idea of seperation is to allow for freedom to have faith without direction from the government.

this clearly flies in the face of that ideal. also alienating the portion of the military that is not Christian, a portion i would think to be quite substantial.

 

I don't believe it does, there is no element of coercion nor force involved, despite Pagan's bolding of the news clip, nowhere does it state "we will force people under us to" the Officers in question simply signed a statement of faith, then co-ordinated events with Christian Groups, there is a National Day of Prayer called by the President (presumably) so were these folks supposed to ignore it based on a nebulos doctrine?

 

Price Tea China Pagan as in what does that have to do with your Thread Starter and the horrors of a National Day of Prayer?

 

Does he also call a National Day of We Don't Believe in Christ, Christianity or Religion and Take Pride in It?

 

this is an organization; http://www.ndptf.org/home/home.html. there is no Presidential decrea here, although i am sure that Mr Bush whole heartedly supports it. they were to ignore it because it was exclusionary. the fact that it was also sanctioned by certain officers of the military makes it worse. an event like this, if sanctions were needed at all, should have been non denominational and there for included ALL authorized religious groups.

if the prayer day needed to be Christian based only and a statement of faith required, then this should have been done on personal time and not at all involving the military, which by seperation rule makes it neutral in faith.

 

Yup I missed it. I forgot you you were quoting Jesus. He was always saying how certain people need to be killed.

So let's see here, Jesus told some soldiers not to take money from people by force, and you consider that evidence, that Jesus was in favor of war? Really? You know he turned water into wine, I guess he was for drunk driving too.

Yeah, quite indeed. Do you follow a particular domination?

 

i bet things would also be different if this was organized by a Wicca organization calling for a "National Pray to the Goddess" day. if all you had to do was sign a statement of belief to participate and was sanctioned by the military. the Right would have a field day.

 

This is why you can't argue this debate in this way. There are loop-holes everywhere AND you have to assume that the other people can put themselves in your shoes. Its why I've taken it to the point where, it is clear. Which is, that Jesus was against war, therefore, bringing this kind of thing to the military, is blasphemous.

 

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
April 22, 2008


National Day of Prayer, 2008

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of
America

America trusts in the abiding power of prayer and asks for the wisdom to discern God's will in times of joy and of trial. As we observe this National Day of Prayer, we recognize our dependence on the Almighty, we thank Him for the many blessings He has bestowed upon us, and we put our country's future in His hands.

From our Nation's humble beginnings, prayer has guided our leaders and played a vital role in the life and history of the United States. Americans of many different faiths share the profound conviction that God listens to the voice of His children and pours His grace upon those who seek Him in prayer. By surrendering our lives to our loving Father, we learn to serve His eternal purposes, and we are strengthened, refreshed, and ready for all that may come.

On this National Day of Prayer, we ask God's continued blessings on our country. This year's theme, "Prayer! America's Strength and Shield," is taken from Psalm 28:7, "The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I am helped." On this day, we pray for the safety of our brave men and women in uniform, for their families, and for the comfort and recovery of those who have been wounded.

The Congress, by Public Law 100-307, as amended, has called on our Nation to reaffirm the role of prayer in our society by recognizing each year a "National Day of Prayer."

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2008, as a National Day of Prayer. I ask the citizens of our Nation to give thanks, each according to his or her own faith, for the freedoms and blessings we have received and for God's continued guidance, comfort, and protection. I invite all Americans to join in observing this day with appropriate programs, ceremonies, and activities.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-first day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand eight, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-second.

GEORGE W. BUSH


here is what i could find on public law 100-307;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/day_pray4.htm

 

it would seem to me that tolerance is no longer an issue for some mainstream Christians. there should be no "battleground" about which comes first. you are what you are. your nationality should not impinge upon your faith, as your faith should not impinge on your nationality. they should co-exist.

 

Come on guys. We all know the Constitution was copy and pasted from the Bible. Lets just dissolve the Bill of Rights and put the Ten Commandments in their place. The military being Christian is harmless. Its not like they could enforce their beliefs on anyone.

 

I do not see it that way Pagan, and Dolphin 1 would be against even wiccans organizing on a military base.

As a Christian I must admit, I'm a bit indifferent to the wiccan complaints, not particularly my purview to care deeply about it, as a Constitutionalist, wicca at the very least is a Deistic Religion and inline with the Masonic backgrounds of the Founding Brother so in that sense, the military should recognize a wiccan right to assemble etc.

 

It would be a bit superflous Vendigo.

 

And there you have it.

 

Indeed, "There will be wars and rumors of wars, but let not your heart be troubled.."

If they were tresspassing against God by being soldiers one would think he would have said something about stopping being a soldier or something..

Only the one mentioned in the Bible..

 

Excellent stuff Ohio, I always had the impression that Chaplains were jack of all trades types who could meet their charges spiritual needs no matter the Faith of the person.

 

Regardless of whether that includes all religions I fail to see why the gov't needs to do it. If they feel the need to tell us how important prayer is why can't they issue a day of critical thinking, exercising, or eating right?

Actually, if we could get everyone to pray that stuff like this is unnecessary and that we could use some politicians who actually try to help us I could get behind it.

 

as a believer in a particular sect of Christianity, Protestant i am assuming, it would make sense for you to be indifferent towards another religion. but that does not mean that you have to practice intolerance. because you may have a certain belief about another type of faith, right or wrong, does not give you the right to cast aside another's beliefs. believe or not believe. everyone has a right to their beliefs.

 

Indeed, in this case my tolerance or intolerance is of no moment as I have no power to anything either way.

Now if the broader question is whether or not Religion itself would offer anything to someone in the military, or Society in General, that would be a different story, as in spirituality aside would wicca or any other faith offer benefits to it's practiotioners, that would be a totally different thread.

BTW, if one looks at the thread title, "Seperation of Church and State takes..", but then Pagan is upset that the State won't recognize his religion....

 

i think that the notion of seperation is way misconstrued. the prevailing belief is that it means no religion at all. i interpret it more as no ONE religion. the whole notion of religious and political freedom goes out the window if government sanctions just one belief. the idea of speration helps protect religious freedom for all by allowing all and not promoting one or none.

what people do with it and their personal agendas is what makes the idea bad. the abuse and mis use of seperation, that is what i think Pagan is actually upset about. of course, only Pagan knows for sure,,,

 

I think we are on the same page with that Dolphin1, my only caveat would be there should be no Historical Censorship of the beliefs of the Washington to FDR generations, for me that is unacceptable.

For example, spinning the model of the Washington Monument around so the religious inscription cannot be easily read, or the bland "new" sections on the Jefferson Memorial.

I also have the opinion that a Class Valedictorian should be able to thank God for achieving that status, or in reverse, credit their lack of belief in a God for achieving that level of success, I think the editing of that sort of speech based on the Seperation Doctrine is absurd.

BTW, in an ironic twist, Hugo Black was a thorough racist, he belonged to the KKK and I find it a bit odd that his "Seperation Doctrine" is quoted so oftenly.

Faith, any Faith, without application is a useless mental excersize D1, the lines that go from "happy in their faith and willing to share it with others" and "Obnoxious nut job" are different for everyone.

Indeed, and he is probably posting beautiful girls who are scantily clad down in the LL, we'll just have to see what he has to say for himself...

 

Not at all Pagan, glad I didn't disappoint you...

If you would prefer, I can use caps when writing Wicca, it was unintentional.

I would think the individual covens would have to decide for themselves?

There is that indifference again...

Because the president is a Christian, it was a Christian prayer,no need to induce a polyglot of every religion being mentioned...even Christianity has 20,000 different denominations, let along all of the various Buddhist and Wiccan and..

Hmm...no sense of humor I see, you've been hanging out with Christians again haven't you...that was meant to be a joke Pagan.

 

Indeed, there is no High Priestess of Wicca who controls each Coven.

Actually, I would not be offended at all, now there would be a whole gaggle of people who would, Buddha was made a Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, so he must have been doing something "right"...insert Buddha Hotel Statue--->here

I was going for the English "dry and deadpan" thing Pagan..

 

i was not aware of that fact. good for him. as for the "dry and deadpan" thing...
what part of England you from?