Seperation of Church and State goes out the window yet again.

"Pagan wrote:

What does it have to do with it? C'mon padre, you're sharper than that.

To allow one faith to organize on Army bases and yet attempt to bar another from doing so has nothing to do with the topic?

As for the "horrors of a national day of prayer", you said "nowhere does it state 'we will force people under us to'".

You are correct. However, it states - maybe in not these exact words - "we will not allow anyone but Christians to partake in this supposed national day of prayer."

This is a brilliant move (switch sarcasm on) being practiced in an environment where teamwork and unity is vital to the success of the organization. Like Dolphan1 said, it alienates a large portion of the military.

Seems to me that if it's a national day of prayer, then the entire nation should be included....all faiths, all denominations. Pray to whatever invisible person in the sky you believe in, but do it as a nation.

I do not see it that way Pagan, and Dolphin 1 would be against even wiccans organizing on a military base.

As a Christian I must admit, I'm a bit indifferent to the wiccan complaints, not particularly my purview to care deeply about it, as a Constitutionalist, wicca at the very least is a Deistic Religion and inline with the Masonic backgrounds of the Founding Brother so in that sense, the military should recognize a wiccan right to assemble etc.

"Vendigo wrote:

Does he also call a National Day of We Don't Believe in Christ, Christianity or Religion and Take Pride in It?

It would be a bit superflous Vendigo.

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
April 22, 2008

National Day of Prayer, 2008

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of
America

America trusts in the abiding power of prayer and asks for the wisdom to discern God's will in times of joy and of trial. As we observe this National Day of Prayer, we recognize our dependence on the Almighty, we thank Him for the many blessings He has bestowed upon us, and we put our country's future in His hands.

From our Nation's humble beginnings, prayer has guided our leaders and played a vital role in the life and history of the United States. Americans of many different faiths share the profound conviction that God listens to the voice of His children and pours His grace upon those who seek Him in prayer. By surrendering our lives to our loving Father, we learn to serve His eternal purposes, and we are strengthened, refreshed, and ready for all that may come.

On this National Day of Prayer, we ask God's continued blessings on our country. This year's theme, "Prayer! America's Strength and Shield," is taken from Psalm 28:7, "The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I am helped." On this day, we pray for the safety of our brave men and women in uniform, for their families, and for the comfort and recovery of those who have been wounded.

The Congress, by Public Law 100-307, as amended, has called on our Nation to reaffirm the role of prayer in our society by recognizing each year a "National Day of Prayer."

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2008, as a National Day of Prayer. I ask the citizens of our Nation to give thanks, each according to his or her own faith, for the freedoms and blessings we have received and for God's continued guidance, comfort, and protection. I invite all Americans to join in observing this day with appropriate programs, ceremonies, and activities.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-first day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand eight, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-second.

GEORGE W. BUSH

here is what i could find on public law 100-307;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/day_pray4.htm

And there you have it.

"Finascious D wrote:

Yup I missed it. I forgot you you were quoting Jesus. He was always saying how certain people need to be killed.

Indeed, "There will be wars and rumors of wars, but let not your heart be troubled.."

So let's see here, Jesus told some soldiers not to take money from people by force, and you consider that evidence, that Jesus was in favor of war? Really? You know he turned water into wine, I guess he was for drunk driving too.

If they were tresspassing against God by being soldiers one would think he would have said something about stopping being a soldier or something..

Yeah, quite indeed. Do you follow a particular domination?

Only the one mentioned in the Bible..

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

I used to participate in NDP in local communities. I don't anymore. They often digress into triumphant "prayers" for whatever party's platform happens to have a majority at the gathering.

I include prayers for the nation every week in our worship services. I regularly pray for the nation, the president, the governor, mayor, etc. To me that is part of my call.

In this case we have free speech questions intersecting with non-establishment issues. It is the new battleground in constitutional law. What gives this situation a new twist is the fact that they are uniformed personnel.

I have friends and classmates who are chaplains. They note a change in the corps. Once upon a time the military's chaplains were among the most tolerant and open minded clergy around. In recent years, however, more and more evangelicals have joined. The battle of whether you were an American first or a practioner of your faith has become a hazier issue.

Some commanders are indeed right wing Christians as Pagan pointed out and were demanding tough limits on anything else and pushing strong proselytizing. Others were refusing to allow their chaplains to speak about their faith at all or demanding Christians lead Jewish services , etc There is an underlying battle in the military over the place of faith right now for which this article is just the tip of the iceberg.

Excellent stuff Ohio, I always had the impression that Chaplains were jack of all trades types who could meet their charges spiritual needs no matter the Faith of the person.

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
April 22, 2008


National Day of Prayer, 2008

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of
America

America trusts in the abiding power of prayer and asks for the wisdom to discern God's will in times of joy and of trial. As we observe this National Day of Prayer, we recognize our dependence on the Almighty, we thank Him for the many blessings He has bestowed upon us, and we put our country's future in His hands.

From our Nation's humble beginnings, prayer has guided our leaders and played a vital role in the life and history of the United States. Americans of many different faiths share the profound conviction that God listens to the voice of His children and pours His grace upon those who seek Him in prayer. By surrendering our lives to our loving Father, we learn to serve His eternal purposes, and we are strengthened, refreshed, and ready for all that may come.

On this National Day of Prayer, we ask God's continued blessings on our country. This year's theme, "Prayer! America's Strength and Shield," is taken from Psalm 28:7, "The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I am helped." On this day, we pray for the safety of our brave men and women in uniform, for their families, and for the comfort and recovery of those who have been wounded.

The Congress, by Public Law 100-307, as amended, has called on our Nation to reaffirm the role of prayer in our society by recognizing each year a "National Day of Prayer."

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2008, as a National Day of Prayer. I ask the citizens of our Nation to give thanks, each according to his or her own faith, for the freedoms and blessings we have received and for God's continued guidance, comfort, and protection. I invite all Americans to join in observing this day with appropriate programs, ceremonies, and activities.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-first day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand eight, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-second.

GEORGE W. BUSH


here is what i could find on public law 100-307;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/day_pray4.htm

Regardless of whether that includes all religions I fail to see why the gov't needs to do it. If they feel the need to tell us how important prayer is why can't they issue a day of critical thinking, exercising, or eating right?

Actually, if we could get everyone to pray that stuff like this is unnecessary and that we could use some politicians who actually try to help us I could get behind it.

"padre31 wrote:

I do not see it that way Pagan, and Dolphin 1 would be against even wiccans organizing on a military base.

As a Christian I must admit, I'm a bit indifferent to the wiccan complaints, not particularly my purview to care deeply about it, as a Constitutionalist, wicca at the very least is a Deistic Religion and inline with the Masonic backgrounds of the Founding Brother so in that sense, the military should recognize a wiccan right to assemble etc.

as a believer in a particular sect of Christianity, Protestant i am assuming, it would make sense for you to be indifferent towards another religion. but that does not mean that you have to practice intolerance. because you may have a certain belief about another type of faith, right or wrong, does not give you the right to cast aside another's beliefs. believe or not believe. everyone has a right to their beliefs.

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

as a believer in a particular sect of Christianity, Protestant i am assuming, it would make sense for you to be indifferent towards another religion. but that does not mean that you have to practice intolerance. because you may have a certain belief about another type of faith, right or wrong, does not give you the right to cast aside another's beliefs. believe or not believe. everyone has a right to their beliefs.

Indeed, in this case my tolerance or intolerance is of no moment as I have no power to anything either way.

Now if the broader question is whether or not Religion itself would offer anything to someone in the military, or Society in General, that would be a different story, as in spirituality aside would wicca or any other faith offer benefits to it's practiotioners, that would be a totally different thread.

BTW, if one looks at the thread title, "Seperation of Church and State takes..", but then Pagan is upset that the State won't recognize his religion....:)

i think that the notion of seperation is way misconstrued. the prevailing belief is that it means no religion at all. i interpret it more as no ONE religion. the whole notion of religious and political freedom goes out the window if government sanctions just one belief. the idea of speration helps protect religious freedom for all by allowing all and not promoting one or none.

what people do with it and their personal agendas is what makes the idea bad. the abuse and mis use of seperation, that is what i think Pagan is actually upset about. of course, only Pagan knows for sure,,,

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

i think that the notion of seperation is way misconstrued. the prevailing belief is that it means no religion at all. i interpret it more as no ONE religion. the whole notion of religious and political freedom goes out the window if government sanctions just one belief. the idea of speration helps protect religious freedom for all by allowing all and not promoting one or none.

I think we are on the same page with that Dolphin1, my only caveat would be there should be no Historical Censorship of the beliefs of the Washington to FDR generations, for me that is unacceptable.

For example, spinning the model of the Washington Monument around so the religious inscription cannot be easily read, or the bland "new" sections on the Jefferson Memorial.

I also have the opinion that a Class Valedictorian should be able to thank God for achieving that status, or in reverse, credit their lack of belief in a God for achieving that level of success, I think the editing of that sort of speech based on the Seperation Doctrine is absurd.

BTW, in an ironic twist, Hugo Black was a thorough racist, he belonged to the KKK and I find it a bit odd that his "Seperation Doctrine" is quoted so oftenly.

what people do with it and their personal agendas is what makes the idea bad. the abuse and mis use of seperation, that is what i think Pagan is actually upset about. of course, only Pagan knows for sure,,,

Faith, any Faith, without application is a useless mental excersize D1, the lines that go from "happy in their faith and willing to share it with others" and "Obnoxious nut job" are different for everyone.

Indeed, and he is probably posting beautiful girls who are scantily clad down in the LL, we'll just have to see what he has to say for himself...

"padre31 wrote:

I do not see it that way Pagan, and Dolphin 1 would be against even wiccans organizing on a military base.

As a Christian I must admit, I'm a bit indifferent to the wiccan complaints, not particularly my purview to care deeply about it, as a Constitutionalist, wicca at the very least is a Deistic Religion and inline with the Masonic backgrounds of the Founding Brother so in that sense, the military should recognize a wiccan right to assemble etc.

Well padre, your indifference is obvious in a way that I see constantly practiced on these message boards by you and other Christians, and that is the way you guys always capitalize your faith yet spell all other faiths with lower case first letters. A nice smug way - intentionally or not - of disrespecting them and symbolizing that they don't really measure up to Christianity. ;)

As for the organizing, I would be against Wiccans organizing on a base to form some "National" day that excluded all others. I never said I had any problems with Christians organizing on bases. If there are Christian soldiers there and they want to have a mass on Sunday, that is their right. The example I brought up was of Christians trying to deny Wiccans even that simple right, while they organize whatever they please.

But to form something with outside Christian groups and call it a national event, and exclude all others is wrong. And you still seem to not grasp the severity of the statement I bolded in the original post:

"Furthermore, the declaration signed by the military officials says that they promise to “ensure a strong, consistent Christian message throughout the nation”" Military leaders....people in control of our army. People young impressionable soldiers follow. They should send a strong Christian message? Isn't that just a tad like forcing your beliefs on others?

How about a strong, consistent universal message instead?

Indeed, and he is probably posting beautiful girls who are scantily clad down in the LL, we'll just have to see what he has to say for himself...
No, I was out to dinner with my beautiful, fully clothed wife for her birthday.

What my posting in the LL has to do with this topic, however, escapes me.

"Pagan wrote:

Well padre, your indifference is obvious in a way that I see constantly practiced on these message boards by you and other Christians, and that is the way you guys always capitalize your faith yet spell all other faiths with lower case first letters. A nice smug way - intentionally or not - of disrespecting them and symbolizing that they don't really measure up to Christianity. ;)

Not at all Pagan, glad I didn't disappoint you...:wink2:

If you would prefer, I can use caps when writing Wicca, it was unintentional.



I would think the individual covens would have to decide for themselves?

But to form something with outside Christian groups and call it a national event, and exclude all others is wrong. And you still seem to not grasp the severity of the statement I bolded in the original post:

There is that indifference again...:wink2:

"Furthermore, the declaration signed by the military officials says that they promise to “ensure a strong, consistent Christian message throughout the nation”"

How about a strong, consistent universal message instead?

Because the president is a Christian, it was a Christian prayer,no need to induce a polyglot of every religion being mentioned...even Christianity has 20,000 different denominations, let along all of the various Buddhist and Wiccan and..

No, I was out to dinner with my beautiful, fully clothed wife for her birthday.

What my posting in the LL has to do with this topic, however, escapes me.

Hmm...no sense of humor I see, you've been hanging out with Christians again haven't you...that was meant to be a joke Pagan.

"padre31 wrote:

I would think the individual covens would have to decide for themselves?

Decide what for themselves?

Because the president is a Christian, it was a Christian prayer,no need to induce a polyglot of every religion being mentioned...
And no Christian would have a problem if say a Buddhist was elected President and wanted a National Day of Elightenment, right? ;)

Hmm...no sense of humor I see, you've been hanging out with Christians again haven't you...that was meant to be a joke Pagan.
Well hell bro...put a smilie in next time, willya? I have an excellent sense of humor.

Just not used to jokes coming from Christians. :tongue:

"Pagan wrote:

Decide what for themselves?

Indeed, there is no High Priestess of Wicca who controls each Coven.

And no Christian would have a problem if say a Buddhist was elected President and wanted a National Day of Enlightenment, right? ;)


Actually, I would not be offended at all, now there would be a whole gaggle of people who would, Buddha was made a Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, so he must have been doing something "right"...insert Buddha Hotel Statue--->here

Well hell bro...put a smilie in next time, willya? I have an excellent sense of humor.

Just not used to jokes coming from Christians. :tongue:

I was going for the English "dry and deadpan" thing Pagan..

"padre31 wrote:

Indeed, there is no High Priestess of Wicca who controls each Coven.

Actually, I would not be offended at all, now there would be a whole gaggle of people who would, Buddha was made a Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, so he must have been doing something "right"...insert Buddha Hotel Statue--->here

I was going for the English "dry and deadpan" thing Pagan..

i was not aware of that fact. good for him. as for the "dry and deadpan" thing...
what part of England you from? :wink2:

:lol:

"DOLPHAN1 wrote:

i was not aware of that fact. good for him. as for the "dry and deadpan" thing...
what part of England you from? :wink2:

:lol:

Blame it on Boomer, mate, all of this predraft stuff that he has written and that I've read has infected my keyboard...:lol:

"padre31 wrote:

Indeed, there is no High Priestess of Wicca who controls each Coven.

What are you getting at bro?

Actually, I would not be offended at all, now there would be a whole gaggle of people who would, Buddha was made a Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, so he must have been doing something "right"...insert Buddha Hotel Statue--->here
Molesting altar boys? (ooooh....I know, I know...but you lobbed that one over the plate. I had to swing at it!)

I was going for the English "dry and deadpan" thing Pagan..
Now had I been able to hear your John Cleese delivery, I'd have known. ;)

"Pagan wrote:

What are you getting at bro?

There is not a central Wiccan figure who is looked to for advice on thing slike holding a day of prayer etc.

Molesting altar boys? (ooooh....I know, I know...but you lobbed that one over the plate. I had to swing at it!)

No worries, your high blood pressure is effecting your posts, all of that salt don't ya know..:lol:

Now had I been able to hear your John Cleese delivery, I'd have known. ;)

The parrot has ceased to be!:lol:

"padre31 wrote:

There is not a central Wiccan figure who is looked to for advice on thing slike holding a day of prayer etc.

I know what you were saying, there is no "Pope" in Wicca. Each Coven does have a High Priestess or Priest, though.

What I'm trying to figure out is how it pertained to my original statement of:

"As for the organizing, I would be against Wiccans organizing on a base to form some "National" day that excluded all others. I never said I had any problems with Christians organizing on bases. If there are Christian soldiers there and they want to have a mass on Sunday, that is their right. The example I brought up was of Christians trying to deny Wiccans even that simple right, while they organize whatever they please."

No worries, your high blood pressure is effecting your posts, all of that salt don't ya know..:lol:
Ah...if only I could have salt. PKD interrupted that love affair. :tongue:

Actually, it's more my love of cringe humor. ;)

The parrot has ceased to be!:lol:
No no! 'E's pining!

"padre31 wrote:

It would be a bit superflous Vendigo.

Pray tell: Why would it be a bit superflous? And why isn't a National Day for Prayer just as superflous? And why does the President of the United States engage in these matters in the first place? It's a delicate issue, I know, but the way I see it, it constitutes a violation of the First Amendment. There's clearly a preferentialist stance here.

"Vendigo wrote:

Pray tell: Why would it be a bit superflous? And why isn't a National Day for Prayer just as superflous? And why does the President of the United States engage in these matters in the first place? It's a delicate issue, I know, but the way I see it, it constitutes a violation of the First Amendment. There's clearly a preferentialist stance here.

Because good sir, it would be just another day, no prayer, no appalations to a higher power, none of that, what exactly would one do on a "National Atheism Day"?

As for a President issuing such proclaimations, such is traditional, going back to our first President, America is still a fairly young place in the broader scheme of things.

As to "Violation of Seperation of Church and State", if we look at the First Amendment, it only prohibits the Establishment of a Religion by Congress, not a recognition of a Religion.

"Pagan wrote:

No no! 'E's pining!

For the fjords???? Wonderful plumage on the Norwegian Blue

"padre31 wrote:

Because good sir, it would be just another day, no prayer, no appalations to a higher power

Exactly. But that's the nature of atheism, isn't it? Just because you don't see a point in the celebration of not believing doesn't mean that there isn't one. For an atheist, there isn't a point in celebrating the ostensible existence of a fictional entity either. That's basically why, in my opinion, government should refrain from engaging in such matters in the first place because it opens a can of worms. If believing is encouraged by the government, then said government is also obliged to encourage not believing because it's required to be unbiased in such matters by the Constitution.

As to "Violation of Seperation of Church and State", if we look at the First Amendment, it only prohibits the Establishment of a Religion by Congress, not a recognition of a Religion.

But the President specifically encouraged people to practice religion. Which is, in fact, in violation of the First Amendment because it's preferential. In "Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet" the Supreme Court explicitly ruled that government was not to prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion.

"Vendigo wrote:

Exactly. But that's the nature of atheism, isn't it? Just because you don't see a point in the celebration of not believing doesn't mean that there isn't one. For an atheist, there isn't a point in celebrating the ostensible existence of a fictional entity either. That's basically why, in my opinion, government should refrain from engaging in such matters in the first place because it opens a can of worms. If believing is encouraged by the government, then said government is also obliged to encourage not believing because it's required to be unbiased in such matters by the Constitution.

Then the Atheist would be imposing their religion on Society, quite the conundrum isn't it?

But the President specifically encouraged people to practice religion. Which is, in fact, in violation of the First Amendment because it's preferential. In "Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet" the Supreme Court explicitly ruled that government was not to prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion.

Indeed, we need more of a president encouraging religion among Americans.

"padre31 wrote:

Then the Atheist would be imposing their religion on Society

No. He would merely be granted the same rights the believers are granted.

Indeed, we need more of a president encouraging religion among Americans.

More religion, less Constitution. That's an interesting stance. Please forgive me that I'm pretty skeptical of promoting religious beliefs over constitutional rights. A burned child dreads the fire.