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Serious problem with our Offensive scheme

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by DOLFANMIKE, Aug 28, 2009.

  1. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    For quite awhile, I bought into the idea that we almost never throw the ball deep because of Pennington's weaker arm strength. However, after watching 3 games of preseason now with 3 different QB's throwing the ball it's obvious that we are just a dink and dunk offense. Henne's greatest asset is supposed to be his rocket arm, yet he almost never launches a pass over 20 yards.

    Our 3rd down offense, both 3rd and long and 3rd and short, is an embarrassment so far under Henning. We have to find some answers folks. I am shocked that we let Tampa Bay sit in a cover 2 and didnt run any flood routes with verts forcing one Safety to cover two WR's. Typically, coaches usually try to attack a Cover 2 zone by throwing the sideline and middle of the field deep between the safeties. It really isnt difficult to put 3 routes vertical and throw to the open read if you have one up the middle of the field, and one on each sideline going deep. They only have 2 safeties folks! Make a LB run with the middle route or a CB run with the sideline fade. We do little to none of that!


    The complete neglect of the Wildcat also bothers me, I don't care about the element of surprise because that is only good for a week anyhow, and running things for the first time in a real game can be a dangerous gamble.


    I think we have a serious problem with both our long passing game and our screen game passing the ball. We are poor at both and need to fix it!
     
  2. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Our screen game is definitely ugly. But I think the main problem with our long game is that we don't try it often enough. I think its part of the team's personality. Don't make mistakes, get the ball out in three seconds, etc. CP has always been more safe than attacking. It seems that we have guys that get open deep but aren't thrown to. That mentality is preached to all of our QBs.
     
  3. opfinistic

    opfinistic Braaaaains!

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    I think we're holding a lot of things close to the vest this pre season, remember we play all these clowns again in the regular season, it is better we save some stuff till then.
     
  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    You do realize that this is preseason.

    The long pass from Pennington to Hartline was beautiful.
     
  5. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Some of these are the same criticisms that Henning heard in NY before he left. He was villified for not pushing the ball down the field more.
     
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  6. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    You do realize that was one pass our of how many?

    How is this preseason any different than what we saw all last regular season?

    Did we suck on third down last year? Yes we did!

    Did we consistently make attmepts to throw the ball deep last regular season? No we didn't!

    Your point? None.
     
  7. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Yes, the screen is by far the worst thing we do IMO. Our base run blocking struggles kill me. BTW - even on our few attmepts throwing the ball deep...it seems like almost everytime our WR is waiting on the ball and can never explode upfield for a catch in stride.
     
  8. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I am baffled by this as well. The QB is the same, the WR are the same for the most part, and the scheme I assume is the same.

    So why are the QB's throwing to the check downs (RB's) so much, speaking of the Panther game especially?

    Not sure. Our receivers are bound to beat man coverage if the Oline protects long enough. And either the play calls to exploit the zone coverages are off or the receivers aren't adjusting their routes properly.. but again same QB, WR, and scheme.

    Not sure what is going on here. Hopefully it's just preseason, but I am not sure. During the regular season we did throw the ball a bit 10+ yards to the TE and WR's not sure why we aren't doing it this year so far.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    We improved over the seasone. Especially after Bess replaced Camarillo.

    Miami had some long passes last year in the regular season. They had a couple of long plays against the Jets in the last game of the season.

    Miami isn't a team that bombs it out. You do not need to be successful on offense by throwing it long one out of 5 plays.

    The last part was just you being a little rude.
     
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  10. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    We will continue to struggle on offense until our offense can stretch the field and move the ball on 3rd down. The constant breakdowns keep our games claser than they should be, and cost us some wins.

    While we don't need to "throw it long one out of 5 plays" we do need to have a ratio of success doing it that allows us to play the entire field, otherwise we'll see teams do just what we are seeing - Playing more men in the box and stuffing our run. That is a direct result of our problem. We don't make enough threats deep to warrent any real attention there.

    Tampa Bay ran 2 deep almost the entire game. Where do you think those other 9 defensive players were? They (9 in the box) were the reason we couldnt run the ball.
     
  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    If Miami won the game 92-0 and scored a deep play everytime the offense touched the ball I would say the same thing, "Dude, its preseason."

    Yesterday if Hartline didn't get called for the push off, which will not get called 80% of the time, then he had two long catches and this thread wouldn't exist.
     
  12. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Really? Two deep plays are enough in your mind to "stretch a defense"

    You've been drinking too many milkshakes dolfan.

    How do the two catches by Hartline change our poor screens addressed in the opening post?

    How do the two catches change the few attempts last season and this season stretching the field?

    How do they change the fact that tampa Bay still sat in a cover 2 and stuffed our run with 9 in the box?

    If you think those two catches addressed the original post you and I have two very different ideas about successful offensive football. The original points of the thread stand regardless of Hartlines catch or could have been catches.

    If you think otherwise I'd love to hear why.
     
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  13. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    The 2 CB's don't normally count as being 'in the box'. So that leaves 7 defenders in the box, and traditional football thought is you run with 7 in the box, at least that is my understanding of it. So 2 deep safeties is respecting the passing game, not giving up the big play, and forcing us to run. .. They did a good job stopping the run w/ just 7 if that was the case. That is alarming.

    Also miami was 10th in overall pass offense last year:
    http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst..._NET_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1


    You can sort the stats, plays of 20+ yards we were 20th in the league, but plays of 40+ yards we were tied for 12th. Not great but not bad considering.
     
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  14. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Civil discussion please. This doesn't have to devolve into a pissing match/name calling thread. Let's debate the topic not insult one another.
     
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  15. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    If we running two deep I will say they pressed at the line, forcing the QB to go up top or underneath.
     
  16. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    How about the fact that we used the same plays on offense and defense repeatedly. This game was about trying to see if we could be fundamental and do the small things needed to win.
     
  17. Brown42000

    Brown42000 Chillin

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    It is preseason they aren't going to come out guns blazing.
     
  18. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Cover 2 Man, there is two deep safety help in that case. The only deep spot that is vulnerable is deep down the middle. Then in order to throw deep, you have to beat your man in the deep middle. So that would be the TE's? Also don't you have to send at least 1 WR , if not both, on a streak of some sort to pressure the safeties to the deep outsides to open that gap in the middle?

    Again I see Cover 2 as taking away the big pass play and inviting the run. Just my take on it. In a base personnel package we have even numbers of blockers vs defenders in the box for the run. So that would be a good running situation.
     
  19. DaFish

    DaFish Well-Known Member

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    I didn't even know there was a scheme for preseason.
     
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  20. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    A cover 2 has a few places to attack. There is a hole between the corners and safeties along the sidelines. Also there is the deep middle of the field. There is more than area that is vulnerable, also don't forget any crossing route, or rub route will create issues for the defense.

    You can play with your corners up as Bates did last night and he has done for his entire career as a DC and still have cover 2 principles involved. You can have the Mike drop back and be the Tampa 2 where there is short area of the field open.

    And IMO Mike has a very valid point. Henning has been criticized before Miami for being conservative and unwilling to push the ball down the field. Henning is more apt to run a draw than consistently attempt to pick up a first down on a 3rd down and 8 or more. He did it in NY, he did it in Carolina too. Henning will put his team in a chance to compete, but he won't make it so that the QB has to risk the ball all day long. If he continues to do it, it will become an issue. Baltimore dared us to throw the ball down the field last year, and we were miserable at it.
     
  21. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The only problem is that has little to do with how far the ball actually traveled in the air. I'd like to see how many of our QB's throws last year were longer than 20 yards in the air down the field.
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    two successful deep plays are enough for the defense to be worried about them, yes.

    To answer all of your questions, preseason.
     
  23. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Cover 2 is a 9 in the box defense. "The Box" is a term that reflects more than just the LB to DL Box. It's a term meant to mean run support as well. The reason the CB's push it up from 7 in the Box to 9 in the box is because of the run responsibility associated with the Tampa 2 system. Most Cover 2 schemes have the CB come up against the run very aggressively when they get a run read. We do the same with our Safeties in the Quarters scheme.

    We ask our Safeties to be primary run stoppers and primary pass defenders. The Bucs do the same only they ask it of their CB's. That's why what they did is refered to as 9 in the box. That's what the "Tampa Bay 2" defense is and there are many clinics you can go to if you want to learn more about it.
     
  24. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Yes, lets do just that. It works both ways.
     
  25. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    All of last regular season as well as this preseason. It's been well documanted by our own coaching staff in pregame discussion by Sparano and various articles on the Fins.

    We have a problem on 3rd down.

    We have a problem stretching the field.

    Both of those problems also lead into our problem running the ball now (preseason) and last season.

    Sparano himself has discussed some of those struggles so maybe he and I have a different view than you do. I don't know any offensive Coordinators at any level that would say two mildly deep pass attempts deep are enough to stretch a field in the course of a game.
     
  26. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    You are switching between cover 2 man and cover 2 zone w/o specifying and it's confusing the crap out of me :lol:, if I am reading correctly. Cover 2 Tampa is a zone defense correct?

    I do see your point now. You have to have aggressive play calls to beat Cover 2 deep. Maybe Henning isn't making those calls, but again we did finish 10th in overall passing I feel that is pretty good considering our WR's, and it being the 1st season for our WR's in that system.

    The Baltimore game, they whipped our butts up front. Their D line dominated our Oline ( 2 backup guards understandably didn't play particularly well ). So it's hard to throw deep when the QB is running for his life and no running game. I am not sure how much of that is Henning's fault. Maybe a lot? I honestly don't know.
     
  27. Ricky Williams

    Ricky Williams New Member

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    This offense can be extremely frustrating to watch. I have almost no hope anytime it is 3rd and 8 or longer. Ronnie needs more touches IMO. Once he gets into a rythm he actually starts heading N and S. Where is the game film of 07's first half of the season games, becuase those screen plays to Ronnie were deadly. I'd imagine Hartline played so much b/c it's preseason, but come on Cam is way better suited for Chad's style of passing. I'm absolutely blown away by the lack of O-line push.

    And to make matters worse for our pathetic 3rd down conversion rates, is the 3rd down conversion rate on D! It's like if we don't sack the QB it's a guaranteed completion whether its 3rd and 3 or 3rd and 15.

    The season can't come soon enough...
     
  28. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I wonder how much of the screen problem is related to the Oline personnel?

    Can anyone remember who our starting linemen were under Cam?

    The thing that jumps to mind is Center. Satelle seemed like he was more mobile than Grove is, but probably worse at raw power and man up blocking.

    Donald Thomas seems like a power guy w/o great speed or movement for an Olineman. He just seems like a mauler. Could be the switch in personnel that is part of the issue?
     
  29. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Finishing where we did passing doesn't mean our passing game doesnt suck throwing deep and throwing screens. We all know from watching the games that both do in fact suck.

    We are great at middle routes, and good at the short ones as well, but the screens and bombs are consistently bad.

    It's great that we are 10th in passing despite not being able to consistently throw deep and our screens are horrible. Just think where we'd be in that ranking if we got ourselves operating on the whole field.
     
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  30. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    Did I say 'being 10th in passing means this problem doesn't exist' anywhere?

    One of my earlier posts said we were 20th in 20+ yards passing plays, and like 12th in the NFL for 40+ yards passing plays. So don't act as if I just say 'we are top 10' and I didn't address the point.

    I am not going to rehash my points, they are already in the thread.
     
  31. ChrisKo

    ChrisKo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thought Jim Bates took over the defense at Tampa and they've dumped the Tampa Cover 2 in favor of the press man that we've seen for many years. Granted that Talib, Ronde, and Tory aren't close to Madison and Surtain in bump coverage, it looked like a Bates run defense with bad corners to me. I'll have to watch the game again and pay more attention to the Tampa secondary.
     
  32. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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  33. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Did I that you said 'being 10th in passing means this problem doesn't exist' anywhere? Where did I mention that? How did I do that?

    Simply put, I said in the opening thread we don't stretch the field, we suck at running the screen, and both are making it easy for teams to defend our running game. My point in that thread you cited was to say we're 10th because we are great at medium range and short passes. However, the problems deep and with screens, as well as on 3rd down are all serious problems IMO. They are also all part of why we cant run the football.

    If you have something to say contrary to that, just say it. Either you agree with the opening thread or you don't. Don't turn it into a pissing match....remember?
     
  34. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    ^^

    I am discussing the issues, and haven't personally insulted you. So I feel as if I am staying civil.
     
  35. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I have said something to the contrary, you haven't made a counter argument yet. Restating my points doesn't further the discussion.

    How does the lack of the screen hurt our running game? I honestly don't know. Can you elaborate?
     
  36. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Mike,

    I do not get the timing of this thread. Every time I looked at the screen they were playing "man". They were jamming the crap out of the receivers and they were consistently being called for the pass interference that the aggressive style will accompany. That was Jim Bates over there. It was not Monte Kiffin. I'm wondering when you saw cover 2 because I'm watching the replay right now. For three plays in a row we have went in motion and they stayed with their man all the way across the field.

    Explain the thesis because if it's based upon them being in a cover 2 last night it has more holes than a bar of swiss cheese.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    For one Miami's offense didn't have many plays due to the defense not getting off of the field.

    Sparano talked about many struggles.

    Looking at last year is one thing. Looking at preaseason is a whole different ball fo wax.

    Hartline showed now that Miami has two recievers who are able to stretch the field, while last year Miami had one.

    It is when you are talking about execution.

    My main point is the fact that I find any idea that we have a problem with scheme or players based on preseason as half baked. These are televised practices.
     
  38. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    Not having any part of an offense work hurts all phases of the offense.

    If we waste 4-5 plays a game running screens that result in losses of yardage, turnovers, or incompletes that hurts the offense.

    Screens are usually set up by some form of play action (a fake run). If we are so bad at execting our screens that teams have no fear of them they can do exactly what we are seeing - focus on the run. So the offense is hurt in general, including the rushing attack if we don't stretch the field or execute of screens. It gives the defense a smaller package to defend and an easier field to cover.
     
  39. DOLFANMIKE

    DOLFANMIKE FOOTBALL COACH 32 YEARS Luxury Box

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    That's true. But the focus of the thread was our offense in general, not only the Bucs game. The buc's game just further pushed those same problems into view.


    Yes, he did mention many things. Including the items I brought up as problems in this thread. Right?


    Some of the original posts in this thread mentioned that this is not just a new preseason problem, and that we struggled with the exact same issues last season. The fact that it's only preseason doesn't cancel out the fact that these were also problems last year that Sparano wanted to improve on or that he saw our 3rd down situation and attempts to rush the football as needing alot of work. How does practicing failure make us better? I'm betting Sparano is not a happy guy at all right now with our lack of improvement in these areas.

    When we start making teams respect other aspects of our game, like the deep ball or the screen pass, then we'll see improvement as well in other areas of our scheme.
     
  40. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    They did use it. But it won't be as often as when Monte Kiffin was there. Mind you Bates never blitzed that much when he was here, so a few things changed it appeared.
     
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