I know some of the draft 'experts' have poo-poo'd on the Matthews and Cunningham picks, but one thing no one can argue with was the fact that both guys were very, very productive. Production in college has a way of translating to production in the NFL a good bit of the time. Not to mention the college production of Jeff Fuller, an undrafted free agent.

The odds are in favor of at least one of those guys turning into a steal. I like the way Matthews plays. Some people can just ball.

 

Actually I think Rishard Matthews has been almost universally hailed by the 'experts' you refer to as a solid selection in the 7th round.

It's B.J. Cunningham that has more mixed reviews.

 

I hope Moore, Gates and Wallace realise with the lack of depth on our WR Corp that this has to be the best time for them to step up. About time at least one of them does. I think one will. Which one? I think Gates.

 

Also, I have heard mostly good things about Cunningham as well. I distinctly remember Matt Millen gushing about us snagging him so late in the draft.

 

Well NOW I feel better.........

 

I knew someone was going to say that. He at least knows WR talent. Before the injury Roy Williams was pretty good and Calvin Johnson isn't a slouch either.

 

I really will be surprised if Moore and Wallace are on this team by this time next year.

 

IMO one of the main characteristics that a WCO WR needs is body control (and/or balance depending on which term you prefer). You want a guy that can transition smoothly from the catch to the run without losing speed. You want him to be able to take contact at the line, during the route or even during the catch without it disrupting him. There's a lot to like in Matthews, but I see that skill as the key. Many people just say that WCO WRs need size, but I see that as overly simplistic. You need enough size to absorb the contact, but too much size often results in poor balance and fluidity. The key in a timing offense is that the QB trusts the receiver to be able to get to the same spot at the same time consistently. I see that potential in Matthews. IMO if Matthews had played and produced like he did at a bigger name school (against the same level of competition, just a bigger name) than he would have been a third rounder in most drafts. I think he compares very favorably to Jordy Nelson. Matthews is a little shorter, but otherwise they're close in every measurable category. If anything I would say that Marshall is quicker out of his cuts.


Marshall (combine and pro day totals since he was injured at combine)

Height: 6001
Weight: 217
40 Yrd Dash: 4.44
20 Yrd Dash: 2.59
10 Yrd Dash: 1.56
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 20
Vertical Jump: 36"
Broad Jump: 10'03"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.19
3-Cone Drill: 6.88

Nelson

Height: 6025
Weight: 217
40 Yrd Dash: 4.51 (the low was 4.45)
20 Yrd Dash: 2.59
10 Yrd Dash: 1.50
225 Lb. Bench Reps:
Vertical Jump: 31
Broad Jump: 10'03"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.35
3-Cone Drill: 7.03

 

Mark Duper was also an unknown his first training camp.

 

I guess.

 

I think we'll see a more productive unit overall.

The argument about the importance of WR has been misconstrued for awhile on these boards.

 

I actually think that Bess could be as productive as a Welker if he were used in the same fashion. That's how he was used in Hawaii and he was incredibly productive. IMO Bess has been used too much on the outside as a conventional WR instead of playing to his primary strengths.

As for Matthews and the comparison with Nelson, I would say that Matthews is already a better route runner. He naturally sets up DBs and is more explosive out of his cuts. Matthews is about 2 1/8 inches shorter, but that may be the only area where Nelson has a physical advantage. Obviously he'll take time, but I see Matthews' potential as equal to what Nelson's was coming in. Whether he reaches that potential will be based on the mental side. Living in the area, I've never heard anything negative about Matthews' personality or intelligence. IIRC he was the the student/athlete of the week once so he probably is/was a decent student. You never know of course, but at least there doesn't appear to be any obvious concerns on the mental side.

I would also disagree that we know what Hartline is. He's entering that 3rd year of development and will finally get a shot to produce at a point where he may be able to take advantage of it. I don't think it was any coincidence that he was in the primary group of players that was targeted for re-signing. My guess is that Hartline is exactly the type that GB targeted. I think Philbin likes players in that size/speed range with great balance. I think he sees Hartline as fully capable of being every bit as productive as the starters inn GB (think 70 for +1000).

I see Gates as a great unknown. I liked him coming out. I saw him as a third round talent that slipped a bit. But in his second season after playing injured last year, I'm not sure if he's ready to make that jump yet. His size/speed make him a good candidate to play the same role in our offense as Fuller did for TAMU (hopefully more consistently), but the key is his balance and the ability to not get disrupted during his route and during the catch. I wouldn't say that he's shown enough of ability in that area that I would feel comfortable projecting his ability to do that at this level yet.

 

I don't think Jeff Ireland sees Jordy Nelson in Rishard Matthews. I think he sees Miles Austin in him.

 

In fact if any of the players they grabbed are internally drawing Jordy Nelson comparisons, it's B.J. Cunningham.

 

I hope he turns out to be a real steal. I like the way he catches the ball in traffic and makes some good YAC. He has good hands and often makes the tough catch. He can go up and get it and position himself correctly to beat the defender and make the catch. VERY good at adjusting his body to make the catch. He can play inside and out. He can even be dangerous in the slot. He can also help on Punt Returns. We definitely need help there. With Bess, it's 5-10-15 yards maybe and down. You don't even have to watch. That's actually a respectful average for the league, but he never breaks the big one. We need another option or threat there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6srtbQe3KA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UcLKuGBq0s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRK22qe6Zio&feature=related

 

Completely agree with you on the WR position. Great posts! I see receivers like Nelson as the exception not the rule. It's rare that you find many of the skills you've listed(both posts) in a player with that height. If you do, they're usually gone in the top 5. Of the holdovers, I think Pruitt and Moore have a chance. Pruitt has the measurables and is a very good special teamer. Moore has experience in the west coast offense from his days at Fresno State. His size is not ideal, but Sherman had success with the similarly sized Driver.


Julius Pruitt
Height: 6014
Weight: 206
40 Yrd Dash: 4.40
20 Yrd Dash: 2.57
10 Yrd Dash:1.49
Vertical Jump: 31 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'04"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.36
3-Cone Drill: 7.19

Marlon Moore
Height:6003
Weight: 182
40 Yrd Dash: 4.49
20 Yrd Dash: 2.61
10 Yrd Dash: 1.62
Vertical Jump: 35 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'02"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.12
3-Cone Drill:6.76

Curious to hear your thoughts on Naanee. At this point it doesn't seem anyone is giving him much of a chance. I like him. Mainly because of his versatility. He played some H-back in San Diego. I've always liked the way he transitions catch-to-run. Very fluid, good balance. Chuds brought him with to Carolina and his numbers weren't great, but he did find ways to contribute. I think Sherman/Philbin might find a role for him.

 

I like Moore. I see flashes there where he could be our best option as the 4th or 5th WR. Pruitt, I don't know. I haven't seen him separate from defenders consistently enough for me to have any confidence there. He's always struck me as measurables guy who will never be more than a nice STs player.

As for Naanee, I'm mixed at best. I like his hands. I think he's a natural hands catcher. I can see the attraction to his ability on the slant and on the fade. I also think he may end up as one of our better blocking WRs. But I don't see him as sudden enough to get consistent separation. He might stick, b/c we have so many maybe's on the team, but my guess is that if he does it will be b/c the rooks underwhelmed and as a one year thing until better talent displaces him. But you're right in that he deserves more consideration as a possibility for this season. I think people aren't talking about him b/c most don't see him as a potential long term starter.

 

I think gates will be the best of those 3 this year, but also believe that BJ and Mathews could do a better job than Moore and / or Wallace

 

And what abou Fuller? He was one of the favorite targets of Tannehill playing WCO, this guy must know what it takes to be a good WRin this system, obviously the speed is different in NFL but i think BJ could gives a good surprise, hopefully!

 

I'm not real high on Fuller. Looked good a year ago and has the measurables, but went undrafted b/c of how he looked last year. All those drops that TAMU had? Well, I didn't count them but my impression from watching most of those games was that Fuller was dropping the bulk of them. I don't know if it was a lack of concentration or injury, but he looked off. And even before that he was at best a sloppy prospect, very inconsistent. His speed would vary through his routes as he would stand up coming out of cuts. He'd get off the line quickly on one play and then look like he was striding on the next few. He'd show nice instincts after the catch on one play and none on the next. And worst of all was the drops. He didn't just drop a bunch he seemed to drop them when the team needed him most. He's an athlete (like a so many WR prospects are). He shows balance and an ability to go get the ball, but he strikes me as a guy who never worked at becoming a good WR. I think he's one of those WRs who is very unlikely to figure it out at the next level.

 

Hey, leave my old college buddy out of this...(and out of the GM seat for any NFL team...)....hehehe

 

I started a thread on an underdog roster. I basically added all the rookie wrs on the roster. I want all of them. Just tear up the paper and start over. I like the "potential" of all of them over what is currently on the roster. I have mixed feelings about Wallace and Moore.

 

No, he doesn't.

And giving Millen credit for Calvin Johnson is sort of like giving humanity credit for breathing. As a draft prospect, Johnson's ability and talent were blindingly obvious.

 

I figure that just about everybody after the fourth round is a long shot. In general, some of them have measurables, but didn't produce to that potential and some produced but there are questions about whether they can continue to do so at the next level. IMO the ones with the best shot are the guys who produced and actually have measurables but fell through the cracks due to injury or questions about the level of competition. I think production is important b/c it shows that the player knew/understood enough to do what he had to do. I think that bodes well for the players chances of knowing/understanding what he has to do to be successful at the next level. Obviously, some players just mature late, but there's more certainty, in my mind at least, when a player has already demonstrated an ability to "get it". And just as obviously, you need a minimum level of measureables to compete in the NFL. Among evaluators, what measurables are important varies. From this WR group, I would say that best fits Matthews (I realized that in some of my posts I actually will call him Matthews or Marshall interchangeably. I have no idea why. LOL). He was the leading receiver in the WAC, but due to injury didn't play in the Senior Bowl or run well at the Combine. However, all his numbers at his pro day were very good so he does have the measurables regardless of which ones people consider important. I also think that the talent level he faced was under-rated. UNR did play a couple of top 10 teams last year. That's why I see him as the WR out of this year's group that has the best chance make it and even star.

 

Never know, going as a udfa after looking like a high draft pick may light a fire under him.

I like his game b/c off all of the longshots, he is the most complete phsically, but behind Roberto Wallace imo.

 

Historically though, that has proven to be a very poor predictor of NFL success. Going into your final year knowing you have a chance to be a high pick usually lights the fire for those with a fire to be lit. Those that don't get it lit then usually don't get it lit. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between. As for his game, that was why he wasn't drafted.

 

Moye, Fuller and Matthew run fast enough. Certainly not 4.4, but around 4.5. Cunningham is not going to be asked to outrun coverage. He is going to be a possession type guy and 4.5 or better speed is not required. A lot of guys have played in the league with subpar speed, but were in their appropriate role. A guy like Cunningham would have never been drafted by Miami before the staff came on board. You might say what about Bess? But Bess has short field quickness and is a slot type. I just can't get excited about Nannee. And last year was a serious setback for Moore and Wallace. I like both guys, but I have my doubts. A guy I know nothing about is Hogan. And he might be the very definition of a sleeper. He also looks like a wco receiver. Along with the wrs, I want to get excited about Egnew and Brown. A lot of people want to write Brown off. I don't. With 4.5 speed at his size, if he can catch and absorb blows at this level then I think he has a real shot.

 

Sure, also think the injuries accumulated and he did not handle it very well.

Cunningham maximized his sr season, ditto Matthews, but neither really brings his physical tools, though Matthews is close.

 

I would say that other than height that Matthews has better measurables than Fuller:

Fuller:

Height: 6034
Weight: 223
40 Yrd Dash: 4.53
20 Yrd Dash: 2.75
10 Yrd Dash: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 17
Vertical Jump: 32
Broad Jump: 10'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.42
3-Cone Drill: 7.09

Matthews

Height: 6001
Weight: 217
40 Yrd Dash: 4.44
20 Yrd Dash: 2.59
10 Yrd Dash: 1.56
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 20
Vertical Jump: 36
Broad Jump: 10'03"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.19
3-Cone Drill: 6.88

I would say that Matthews presents the more complete physical tools.

 

Not by much, and Rafi, playing Wr is more then 3 cone drills etc, Fuller has a better build to make plays longer arms etc.

I also suspect Fuller played at a heavier weight then his 223 from the draft process in 2011.

 

So your theory is that Fuller's arms being one inch longer basically trumps Matthews being faster, stronger, quicker and jumping higher and farther? Okay, LOLs. Different evaluators have different characteristics they see as important our priorities for WRs clearly don't agree on those.

As for there being more to playing WR, that I fully agree with. Putting aside the whole catching part, the drops and the production in general where Matthews is obviously far superior, a WCO WR also has to be consistent in his speed through the route. Matthews is and Fuller isn't. That and Matthews better ability to get separation make Matthews a far better prospect overall and a better athlete. I hope Fuller turns things around and learns to handle things better, but to say you like his game better than Matthews at this point seems indefensible under any objective reasoning.

 

Yep, and Fuller has a longer torso, but all of this means nothing until practices start.

 

It does mean that by your definition a longer torso and 1" longer arms are more physical tools than being measurably faster, stronger, quicker and jumping higher and farther. That definition is what I questioned.

 

Heh, a wr bench pressing is no indicator of anything, and as you know, timed speed means jack, it is on the field speed and acceleration or playmaking ability.

Ted Ginn could blaze, he just was a mediocre Wr, DBess can't blaze, and is far better a Wr.

 

Well obviously the biggest indicator is how they produced, but we're not talking about that (Matthews was obviously more productive). We're talking about the players physical ability. You stated that Fuller had more physical tools. I pointed out that in the vast majority of measurable categories Matthews was the better athlete. So your contention that Fuller has more physical tools is obviously wrong.

 

This is a no-lose for us. These are guys with a chip on their shoulder. They bite when they're hungry. Wes Welker? Undrafted. Davonne Bess? Undrafted. Hell, Brandon Marshall was a 4th round pick. Victor Cruuuuuuz? Anybody remember Rod Smith (okay, he had Elway throw to him all those years; still)

Michael Crabtree? Early round holdout; has yet to accomplish jack. Our boy, Ginn?