Shocked after I went back and rewatched the Ravens game

Please don't use the words "not bad" and "offensive line" in the same sentence while talking about the dolphins. I get your point with what your saying with decent protection and that's te thing sometimes we do get decent protection and tannehill holds on a second too long but a solid 12 sacks were just olinemen beaten right away to where Tannehill doesn't even get to finish his drop back. That is what we need to fix the instant breakdowns.

 

It's not just the nice pocket but how long the pocket holds up. I do admit Tanny doesn't do himself any favors and for a guy that can move so well it's criminal how often he doesn't (due to coach/gameplan or decisions).

How long are his pockets holding up?

 

Wow.

My review of every passing play came out with the exact opposite conclusion about the offensive line play.

Tannehill was contacted on a sack within 2.5 seconds on five occasions. To be exact, we're talking 2.2, 2.4, 3.1, 2.5, 2.5 and 2.2 seconds. That means one sack was a coverage sack featuring Tannehill holding onto the ball too long. Several of these sacks featured all vertical stems which meant it was literally impossible for Tannehill to get the ball out to a target under 2.0 seconds.

What got me are the occasions when Tannehill was pressured into throwing the football early or off balance because he was hit as he threw. One such occasion happened on the final drive, 1st & 10. Tannehill wants to hit Mike Wallace on a post pattern after he clears the underneath coverage of the right side corner. The window the ball has to go through is between the right side corner, the linebacker in that area, and the safety over top. The pressure came in too early and so Tannehill has to release the ball soon. He throws it into the only window he could, but Wallace isn't there yet because the timing was thrown off by pressure.

What a picture DOESN'T show on the snap shot that shows a supposedly "spacious pocket" in front of Ryan Tannehill is the fact that he started that play from shotgun and the timing of the play was five-steps with no gather step. Admittedly, the play call itself put Jonathan Martin and Tyson Clabo under a certain amount of pressure by having Ryan Tannehill's setup spot be so deep in the backfield. But then, they're professionals and they're supposed to get the job done anyway. Tannehill took his drop and actually did take a step forward, began his throw immediately in rhythm. The problem is both Martin and Clabo let their guys into the backfield so fast they were practically there to meet Tannehill at his setup spot. He'd have had to pull the ball down, screwing up the timing of the play, and scrambled up in the pocket then hoped his intended target was still open.

Could have happened. He could've done it. But let's not pretend that means they blocked that play well, because they didn't.

 

Thank you, because this illustrates pretty succinctly the elements that Ryan Tannehill is responsible for. Tannehill has had a lot of opportunities to buy time outside of the pocket, or take off and gain positive yards that he isn't taking. The idea that the pocket is routinely collapsing in some sort of uniform, net-like fashion that makes it improbable for Tannehill to escape from is a fantasy. He hasn't had an opportunity to escape from all his sacks, but he's flat out not even reacting to pressure.

I think that 4th down play is pretty strong evidence that Tannehill has the ability that isn't really being utilized. He's being told to stay tight in the pocket and take the sack if it comes down to it. Either they don't want him to take chances in forcing plays, or they want him to try and buy time for a deep Wallace completion, but either way, I think it's a big factor.

 

Snapshots show the pocket formed, but it does not show how quickly it crumbles, and that is the real issue. Just by virtue of the way the o-line forms during the snap, by the time the ball is snapped and both lines make contact, the horseshoe shape of a pocket forms naturally. The real issue, and what separates olines between good, average, bad and dolphin, is how long can they keep their blocks and keep the pocket formed.

Our pocket forms just like any other, it just happens that it crumbles too quickly.

 

I think both GM and CK have a point. Thing is, Tanny isn't going to get 3-4 seconds with the poor blocking and little threat of a run game. But given that reality, he could be doing more with his legs. My uneducated suggestion is that Ryan should play more street ball. I have heard enough about Andrew Luck, but he plays every play like it's his last. It gets him into trouble sometimes, but it also allows for spectacular plays similar to that 4th and 10 Gibson.

 

I think it's a combination of a young QB that needs to learn to feel the pressure, and use his feet better to avoid it. And, an O-line that IMO could be better.

 

This is something I have a problem with.

I really hope the coaches are rethinking our offensive strategy and we see a different approach in two weeks.

 

I don't know if there's another quarterback in the national football league being asked to throw the ball more quickly and deal with more pressure more quickly than Ryan Tannehill.

He's essentially asked to be Peyton Manning as far as reading the field and figuring out who to get the football to in a very short space of time. But Peyton Manning is a 16-year veteran and Ryan Tannehill is a 2nd year player.

I mentioned before that Tannehill's average time to throw was already 3rd-quickest in the NFL at 2.29 seconds. That dropped even lower this week against the Ravens as he got the ball off on average in 2.26 seconds during the Ravens game. He's now 2nd-quickest in the NFL at 2.28 seconds on average. His time elapsed until whistled on a sack is still holding steady at 7th in the league though the time dropped from 3.62 seconds to 3.60 seconds. His percentage of throws taking longer than 2.5 seconds is down to 2nd-lowest in the league.

The guy is being held to standards that other QBs are not, as far as what he's dealing with in pressure up front.

Nobody's ever said he's among the league's best at feeling pressure, ducking it, scrambling around and finding options. But he's certainly not among the worst at it either. He's very average in this regard.

You don't attribute 24 sacks in 5 games to your quarterback being average at a certain skill.

 

Coincidentally, I was just finishing up re watching the game when your thread started. Also, earlier in the afternoon I listened to Joe P on his Sirius radio show. He basically concurred that there wasn't excessive pressure until the end of the game. On the 3rd quarter pressure just outside of 10 minutes, I noticed the same thing about Tannehill being able to step up there, although #51 for the Ravens was completing a spin move and would have kept Tannehill from making any kind of play.

On the late pressures on the last drive, Philbin stated that at that point they were looking for a TD, not settling for a FG as there was a good minute of time left and they were down near the 35. This was after Tannehill's completion to Gibson. I think Tannehill was of the same mindset that he was in during the Atlanta final drive. He got good protection then, and I think he believed he would get it again in this time. He was looking for something downfield. That's why I believe he held the ball too long, incurring that final sack. Then Clay not catching that ball that would have made the FG more possible really did them in.

 

Your'e making too much sense, we have no room for that here.

People want it to be Tannehill's fault. Some, because they don't like him. Some, because it's easier to say "he needs to get rid of the ball quicker" and it is easier to fix that problem. "Just run an offense that gets the ball out quicker and we are fine".

As you have shown, we are already running an offense that gets the ball out faster than anyone yet, he is still getting his *** kicked.

The offensive line is garbage. We have the best center in football, a Pro Bowl guard and three guys who would likely not start on any other team in the league.

 

I agree, and you've shown good quantified data to support everything.

But, too bad people aren't asking him to be Roethlesburger instead of Manning. Roethlesburger feels pressure and knows how to step up in the pocket. So does Luck. Some QBs do it exceptionally well. Tannehill needs to do that IMO, or at least be conscience that doesn't HAVE to stay in the pocket every time. Good players adapt. Tannehill isn't yet - not saying he isn't good BTW.

EDIT: Thanks for the work GM!

 

Thank you so much.

 

According to PFF, they don't have any sacks occurring before the 2.5 mark.

I don't think anyone is pretending the blocking is good, I think the question is if it's good enough, or even if it's historically bad.

The blocking is not awful, the result is awful because of other factors.

 

That's because they don't stop the clock until the whistle blows. I measure the point at which the player was hit by a pass rusher which is the functional amount of time the quarterback actually had to make a decision and throw on the play.

 

I don't think your standards account very well for comparisons around the league.

 

No i wasn't calling you out or anything like that. At least you took the time to rewatch the plays. My comments are just towards people that might see the shots and formulate an opinion based on what they show, without actually seeing the moving footage.

I've rewatched most of the game, I still come up thinking Tannehill is getting pressure way too quickly, and the only reason we're not seeing even more pressure and even more sacks is due to him getting rid of the ball quickly most of the time. I think Martin and Clabo are more likely to get beaten or pushed back like a shopping cart, than to stand strong and control their man. John Jerry gets pushed back a lot on most pass rushes and that makes stepping up in the pocket a very difficult endeavor. Incognito is not so bad, but he still gives you the odd head-scratching play.

I'm not disputing Tannehill is not the best at working the pocket, however I think he's getting a very raw deal from his oline and I actually think the coaching staff has plenty to do with him not moving more in the pocket. They want him to stay in there, IMHO.

 

Not buying it. I dont think these pictures tell the whole story here. The facts CK points out however does tell the story. If you look closely at the pictures though, specifically the game clock, you can see that while we can take the pictures, and make it seem like he's got all the time in the world in that "pocket", but in reality the frames you show of these plays, rarely cover more than 2 seconds, which is what CK points out. Our tackles, and Jerry, are getting pushed back almost instantly, leaving Tannehill no time to look downfield, and feel around him for an escape route. He's simply not getting enough time. Hell, there were times yesterday where the tackles were already walked back 3 yards into Tannehill's face before he even finished his drop. That, is not good OL play, however you want to slice it. That being said, thanks for looking into it and taking the time. It's a pain to find time to go back and watch these things and break them down. I appreciate it.

 

Where are you getting that from?

 

Them, directly.

 

I've run into so many situations like this and it's always the same.

When you see something that's historical bad there's definitely blame to go around. Ryan Tannehill's being pretty average at feeling the rush and avoiding it does not absolve the offensive line of their poor blocking. I realize nobody is saying that it does. What I'm saying is that the sacks being taken is at such a ludicrously high rate that Tannehill's being kind of average at feeling the rush and avoiding it does NOT preclude the offensive line from being "awful" or "bad".

When I see a review of the offensive line's protection in this game as "not being bad. at all."...I can't help but think, I don't agree with that. Could Tannehill have done more? Absolutely. You need only watch Andrew Luck play some football to see that he bails his offensive line out a lot with his ability to feel pressure and avoid it. But then, Andrew Luck also holds onto the football longer. So yes he bails out his line in one way by feeling the rush and avoiding it, but in another way he makes them look worse than Ryan Tannehill does by holding the football longer.

Russell Wilson holds onto the ball longer than 2.5 seconds bout 60.7 percent of snaps. If Tannehill tried to do that, at the rate he gets sacked on those plays he'd have been sacked 41 times in 5 games.

 

Are there times where RT holds it too long? Yes. There are more times that he gets rid of it. Expecting him to never hold it too long or to make a bad decisiion is idealogical and not possible I am tired of ARM chair qbing and being an ARM chair qb. I see diff things, I see some of the same. But I also see that if RT doesn't step up and make a play noone else does. We are 3-2 in large part to RT making plays.

Brady held the ball way too long way to many times yesterday and we know he doesn't suck

Fine line between holding it too long and dumping too early

 

I'm asking you for a link, indirectly.

 

I think a glaring hole in the methodology here is the fact that GM tried to make a point about Tannehill that doesn't refute us having a bad offensive line.

This is like a person sucking in their stomach to look slim. Showing the shape of the pocket at the snap means nothing if it immediately starts to look horrible. Fat people have to exhale sometime.

In the very effective yet misleading series of three pictures captioned to imply that Tannehill holds the ball long, there are two issues:

Only three seconds have passed in the pictures. If pressure gets to Tannehill on average 3.6 seconds after the snap, the three seconds depicted is less than his average sack time anyway. Considering that's 7th fastest in the league, that's not a long period of time by NFL standards. Go ahead and count 3 seconds and tell me if it's really that long to read a defense, make a decision, and throw. Then remember that on average, Tannehill gets rid of the ball faster than that.

Second issue is, on the play where he's getting chastised for holding the ball long, based on the pocket, he can afford to. Should he check down if he actually has time? Of course we've already established that the 3 seconds isn't long anyway.

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Is there a reason we're not rolling Tanny out more? He was beautiful on the play where he was forced to.

 

Ryan Tannehill seems to have a near-miss interception every time Miami does it. Sherman/Philbin don't seem to like half-field reads, and Tannehill seems to lock on to whoever is coming back to the ball on the play-side and tries to force the pass.

 

Its funny how opinions vary. Just like the comments that were being made in past years that the offensive line is not a core position, depending on what your definition of core position is. I believe this year is proving that offensive line is a necessary priority and shouldn't be taken for granted. Now there is the debate about Tannehill's pocket awareness. The limited experience Tannehill had as a college quarterback showed that he moved well in the pocket and was considered one of the best passing quarterbacks in the draft while on the move. Now we see that he doesn't move that much and tries to be a pocket quarterback. It appears to me that they have or are trying to change his style and coach him to stay in the pocket. Maybe that is good or maybe not but I guess we will see how he develops, but it seems he is in the process of relearning the position as a pocket quarterback?
By the way I was wondering what peoples opinions were of the Dolphins playing without a fullback on the roster and would that have helped the running game?

 

It's tannys worst decision making area. Last year he threw a few picks while rolling out. Biggest one I remember was the pick 6 to laron Landry against the jets. That and rolling out requires the TE and or fb making a good block most of the time

We don't have a fb nor a TE we can trust to make that block.

 

It is all interconnected, the main problem is our OLmen are being man handled, the counter move to that is to run draws and traps etc, however usually our OL then allows penetration or misses blocks compounding the problem with countering such an up the field first mentality.

Another interconnected problem is drops on key plays, and THill's oddly erratic throws at times.

This is why the offense looks flat dysfunctional at times, it is not just one thing, it is a combination of problems, I also hope now Bush being hit for "dancing" last yr came from this situation as well, only Jake Long is objectively a better run blocker than JMartin.

 

They were clocking Payton Manning's throws yesterday at the 1.7 second mark.