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Short Yardage Problems versus Bengals

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Nov 6, 2013.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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  2. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    what is this football you speak of?
     
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  3. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    I know every roster spot is precious on gameday. But I can't get past not having a fullback or RB that specializes in 3rd an 1 situations. that FB we had a couple of years (was that Javorskie?) ago only had one purpose: 3rd and 1, and he was very effective. Maybe the coaching staff likes Thomas because he can also play the pass in case we don't run, but if he sucks on 3rd and short, it's a waste.
     
  4. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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  5. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    there shouldnt be a need for a short yardage specialist. if you cant trust your starter to get one yard, then maybe he shouldnt be your starter.
     
  6. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Barry Sanders probably shouldn't have started then.
     
  7. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    when we have a barry sanders on this team please let me know.
     
  8. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    This. I'd use Clay. He would be my choice getting those 3rd & 1s
     
  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I don't that's a truism in this day and age. The game isn't smash mouth football anymore.

    Look no further than to our game against Indy a few years back. We controlled the ball for 45 minutes, ran all over them, and still lost to a high powered passing attack.
     
  10. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    That wasn't the point.

    Can you specifically tell me why having a short yardage back is a bad thing?
     
  11. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    im not saying we need to be smashmouth, im just saying that you should have confidence in your starting rb to get 1 yd.
     
  12. sandcastle

    sandcastle Active Member

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    I agree that Clay should be used more in short yardage. With the emergence of Egnew and Miller, the Dolphins have a set of players that can be used in multiple formations to vary short yardage plays. I think Thomas has value but his lack of power and outside speed results in too many easy stops on short yardage.

    Varying short yardage between traditional and empty backfields should help reduce the LBers filling holes; freeing their DL to penetrate with limited gap responsibility. The risk of emptying the backfield is that the above have shown limited short yard receiving skills; however, I hope that execution would improve if it becomes part of the weekly game plan.

    Additional short yardage plays/looks might be found with direct snapping to Clay. Read option is already in the play and perhaps a wrinkle can be added. Moreover, Miller's speed might make him a good partner for Ricky role in the Wildcat.
     
  13. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    because i would prefer to have a starter who can get 1 yd. and a fullback whose sole purpose is to block.
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I disagree. The concept of a big bruising short yardage specialist is neither new nor unique to Miami.
     
  15. Bofin

    Bofin Member

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    Clay certainly made good on his conversion here,, and agree we should give him more opportunity. As for Thomas, his vision and decisiveness are real problems and have been. I thought he ran more decisively overall in the last two games, which is good but obviously not on every carry and certainly not on these short yardage attempts. Short yardage is not his strength and the team continues to pound the square peg into the round hole. His vision remains an issue on some plays. Thomas has never looked like he was in the flow of this offense, ever, maybe a couple of his very first games here but not sustained. Coaching and scheme don't fit him, or he is just not a really good back.
     
  16. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    this is what happens when you have a junior college qb as your short yardage rb. thomas was a qb in junior college. he has never had rb vision. i was pissed when we traded up to get him and knew it would be a failure.
     
  17. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    But why? Your preference is irrelevant. Why is a short yardage back a disadvantage?

    I don't see the problem with it. If you have a runner that's very good in space and between the 20's, but not great in short yardage, and you're able to pair him with someone that is a good short yardage runner (something Daniel Thomas clearly isn't), then your backfield is going to be more productive than if it were just a guy that was a good runner in all situations.

    To me, it's like saying you wouldn't want Pedro Martinez because he rarely finished games. But if you paired Pedro with a guy like Craig Kimbrel, overall you're going to get a much more productive 9 innings than if it was just Mark Buerhle throwing 9 above average innings.
     
  18. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd focus more on getting lineman who can block then worry about a short yardage specialist.
     
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  19. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    well, if you're good between the 20s, shouldnt you be good in the redzone. javorskie lane literally took up a roster spot to get 1 yd. he sucked on special teams, and he couldnt block. that is why he's gone. he served no purpose. if you cant trust miller to get that tough yardage then maybe he isnt the answer.
     
  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    That never happened before and hasn't happened since!
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Two of the best teams in the NFC are smash mouth teams.
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Didn't it happen the very next week with the Saints and us?
     
  23. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    It doesn't have to be a guy who's sole purpose is to get one yard. I'm talking more about Daniel Thomas' role. Him replaced with a LaGarrette Blount, Mike Tolbert, etc.

    If you're dressing a player JUST for short yardage ala Lousaka Polite, I can see why that would be a detriment, but I don't see why that has to be the case.
     
  24. Vengeful Odin

    Vengeful Odin Norse Mod Staff Member

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    You are thinking of Lousaka Polite, who, for about a 2 to 3 year stretch, made money running on third and short.

    I think he even made the Pro Bowl because of it.
     
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  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    No it didn't. No team has ever lost with controlling the ball for 45 minutes. Until that game it had a 100% win ratio. Since that game is till has a 100% win ratio.

    Also when the Saints were able to establish their running game is when their passing attack became effective against the Miami Dolphins that game.
     
  26. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was expecting to open the article up and just see "DANIEL THOMAS".

    Looks like the Dolphins are sixth worst in the league on 3rd and 4th down with less than 5 yards to go. They convert 46.3% of those situations with a stunning pass to run ratio of approximately 3:1.

    On 3rd/4th with less than 3 yards to go when running the ball, Miami is 22nd in the league with a 53.8% conversion rate.

    EDIT: Source: http://pfref.com/tiny/eqZQJ
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I never thought Polite did anything that special. The line was really good at blocking for 1 yard during these 2 to 3 year stretch.
     
  28. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    You're always money. Grazie.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Dolphins are succeeding on short yardage runs 50% of the time (7 of 14). League average is 70%. Charles Clay (now 2 for 2) is dragging up the average. If not for his runs, the Dolphins would be #32 out of 32. Instead they're #29/30 of 32...with a good bit of distance between them and the #28 team.

    I have Miami at #24/25 out of 32 on 3rd & 2 or 3rd & 3. Miami has passed the ball 90% of the time in those situations. The average is about 75% passing. Coincidentally or not so coincidentally, the most successful team on 3rd & 2 or 3rd & 3 is the Philadelphia Eagles, who run the football 66.7% of the time on those downs. Only the Carolina Panthers run the football even 50% of the time on those downs.
     
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  30. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Not like several of those short yardage situations were important or would have been significant to convert.
     
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  31. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Breath of fresh air. Actual football.
     
  32. NUGap

    NUGap Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Are we having a stat-off? This is great.

    I find it really interesting that Miami has only gone for it on 4th and <5 yards two times the entire season. Only Indy and the Giants have gone for it less with one instance each. The average in the league seems to be about 5. Conservative play-calling at it's finest.

    But profootballreference is great, their game play finder is spectacular. For those who haven't played around with it ever go here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/play_finder.cgi and just enter in random scenarios. You'll feel more knowledgeable instantly.
     
  33. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I think short yardage running/success is much less about size and power than many people think. Over the years, some of the guys who were best at it weren't very big (e.g., Walter Payton) or powerful (e.g., Marcus Allen). It's often more about vision, quickness and body lean.
     
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  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Moving to Soap Box. No use for this stuff right now, Chris.
     
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  35. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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  36. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    Yes, but we clearly have multiple linemen who can't block, so why not keep a short yardage specialist to compensate?
     
  37. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Is part of the issue though that the box is getting stacked? Those two Cincy examples I believe had essentially 9 and 8 players in or near the box. Seems like that would dictate pass, but we still need to be able to convert short yardage. Crucial. Critical.

    I agree, but not realistic to compare to two of the all time greats. Even big backs who are succesful at short yardage generally make good reads and maybe one good cut. And they have heart, which Thomas seems to lack.
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Size may be overrated where it concerns short yardage success, but I do think it plays more of a role in short yardage than it does on normal downs.
     
  39. josh

    josh Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's right. Lane sucked. He had like one nice (outside) run the the pre-season where he pancaked an LB or DE, and then showed nothing in games.
     
  40. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    When we are in 3 and 1 or even say 4 and 1....

    Why not spread the entire field out......and then have Tannehill chose which way to dive the way the Patriots seem to do all the time.?
     

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