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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by PhinFan1968, Jul 18, 2014.
Our LBs say Hi!
You'll have to forgive me if I don't much feel like giving old pasty legs credit for not being able to build a complete roster in the 6 seasons he was GM of this team. Did he find a handful of good players? Sure. A monkey pulling names out of a hat would have hit on a couple over 6 seasons. Does it validate anything about his career, or your fandom for the man? Not at all. Just because I despise Jeff Ireland and the mess he helped create with these Miami Dolphins, it doesn't mean I have to not appreciate the players left on this team.
Charles Clay was a good find in the 6th round, so was Donald Thomas if you're counting all 6 years. Jimmy Wilson was a good find in the 7th. Carroll, Clemons, Jones, Bush, good value in the 5th. Langford, Vernon and Jerry in the 3rd. Henne, Misi, Smith, Marshall in the 2nd.
You can stack Long, Vontae, Odrick, Pouncey, Tannehill and Jordan up against pretty much group of 1s rounders in the league over that span. That's a lot more than a handful.
I think there needs to be an Odrick thread, this dude has literally shredded a ton of weight, looks to me 25 to 20 lbs..
Like I'm not sure I understand at dtackle, I'm sure he'll be quicker but he's light as hell.
Haven't heard anything about this drastic change.
How many of those few "wins" you mention are still on the roster? Player retention is a big part of any GM's job. The fact you mention Henne is laughable. So is the fact that you mention Marshall while failing to disclose he was jettisoned for a pair of 3rds.
This argument is pointless. His lack of employment with this organization is all the proof anybody needs that he did not get the job done. Too bad it came 3 years too late.
I still can't believe Ireland is still a subject here. lol I thought we were done with that topic, does he even have a football related career anymore? Come on now..
"Few"? Lol I named 15. I left out Wake, Bess, Hartline, that makes 18. If we're talking FAs, Burnett, Dansby, Soliai, Starks, Grimes, Gibson, McDaniel, Ellerbe, Wheeler and Wallace. That's 10 more.
Henne was a 2nd round pick, his career has gone fairly well given where he was drafted.
You're right about one thing, this is pointless. Like trying to teach a horse to speak German.
Wut R Ireland?!?!?!?!?!
Its a subject because I don't hear the Firelanders praising Philbin for nearly making the playoffs despite the horrible roster that he was supposedly saddled with. In fact I hear the Firelanders sharpening their knives for Philbin just in case he doesn't deliver a dramatic one year turnaround and trip to the playoffs. It's truly a bizarre POV but it's passed common and heading for predominant.
Half the league almost makes the playoffs. Ireland gave him a 7-9 8-8 team and he coached them to an 7-9/8-8 record, both years. There is no contradiction here. To win the superbowl and contend yearly you want a GM to assemble a team that is 11-5 potential, and a coach that will coach them to 12-4 or more.
Not right now.
Did you see how much $$$ Jimmy Graham got?
LOL. You want us to praise a guy who was fired for sucking at his job. You can always go be a Seahawks fan if you're still that passionate about the man.
He wasn't fired but please continue, this is good stuff
Let's be honest here, 90% of GM evaluation is playing the result. Team wins= GM is great. I just went thru a laundry list of solid acquisitions and the response is basically blah blah blah Matt Millen.
I don't praise him for finishing 8-8 but I don't kill him either, winning 10 games would have been one of the greatest coaching jobs I've ever seen with what he had to work with, but it didn't happen so meh.
actually that was just a temporary gig
That's kinda the point. Winning 10 games would have happened by beating Buffalo and NY at the end of the year, I doubt that would have surprised anyone after wins vs SD, NE and Pitt. Instead we lost both games and suddenly everyone knew all along that we were a .500 type team. It's playing the result and it's the epitome of intellectual laziness.
this must be the same dumb *** logic Ireland used in 2012 when he didn't sign Reggie Wayne despite having nothing but 4's, 5's, and 6's. and didn't you support the Moreno signing?
Clay is not a beast, if he was I think every single one of us would want him signing an extension today. Julius Thomas is, Reshad Jones was in 2012 before he disappointed last season.
Your laundry list of solid acquisitions is just that, a list of solid acquisitions. Anyone can cherry pick a list. Did he build us a lasting, solid oline? What about 2012 when we fielded one of the worst WR corps in the league. So bad, he was on camera saying the team was built of 4s 5s and 6s. His own words! What star QB did he grab for us? He was allergic to star offensive players. He traded up to grab Daniel Thomas. That's a fireable offense on its own. He was actually scared of losing Daniel Thomas! We can end the conversation right there. He can't pick a star WR so he has to throw picks and money, or a lot of money, at the position. Both efforts have been mediocre so far.
Let Julius Thomas do this for another decade before we start comparing him to Reggie Wayne, ok?
And yeah I support the Moreno signing because it's cheap and he provides much needed blocking and catching ability out of the backfield.
Yeah I'm sure he resigned voluntarily into unemployment.
Did you seriously just poke at my list of 25 players and then name Daniel Thomas as your ONE example? LMAO that's funny. If anyone can cherry pick a list then I'll need you to have a list longer than one player. Actually, the obsession with Daniel Thomas shows how ignorant you guys really are. As if Ryan Williams and Mark Ingram didn't go before he did. As if Ireland didnt grab Reggie Bush in exchange for a 5th round pick that very same year. Who's the GM in Nawlins that took Ingram #15 overall, Mickey Loomis the Super Bowl champ.
Nice job w/ the OL, casual fans love to pile on once the media has told them what to think. The reality is there are several teams who had OL issues equal to or worse than ours, one of those teams won the Super Bowl. Of course fans don't watch the OL of their own team, they sure as hell don't watch the OL play on other teams.
I see you watch Hard Knocks, that's great. You heard Ireland's comment about the WR corps. Reality is Hartline is a decent #2 and Bess is a decent #3, so we had more thna just 4s, 5s and 6's. We lacked a number one, though Brandon Marshall would probably have fit the bill if Philbin had any desire to keep him. I don't say that to slight Philbin, he was right about needing Branden Albert to shore up the OL. But he was wrong about switching to a 4-3, and overall it was his incompatibility with Ireland that hurt the team. Hopefully Hickey and Philbin see eye to eye, but the Ireland sucks storyline is a myth Dolphin fans cling to to make themselves feel better.
Who says he resigned? All I heard was mutually agreed to part ways. Now, is he still being paid under the terms of his contract with the Dolphins? I know, we have no clue. I just wanted to point out that we have no clue.
Who says Philbin was the one that wanted Marshall traded? Is there a clue that speaks to that I missed along the way?
Just an assumption. I assume Philbin wanted Albert in 2013, or Lane Johnson as an alternative. I also assume Ireland wanted to stick with the 3-4, that he wasn't a big fan of trading Marshall, letting Bush go, or cutting Dansby and Burnett. Just assumptions of course, but there's no agenda behind the assumptions. What's clear is that Ireland and Philbin had differing opinions on how to build the team. One of them had to go, neither of them were incompetent IMO.
One example? I just gave you the entire oline except Pouncey. So that's 4. WRs corps minus Hartline there's another few. Hartline is a decent #2. Bess is a decent #3? Notice you keep using superlatives such as solid, and decent. I mean, lay off the hyperbole there buddy! Go look at San Fran where their #3 is going to be a battle between Stevie Johnson and Brandon Lloyd. Hartline would be a #4 on that team. #5 behind Vernon Davis.
25 players over how many years? That means, after 6 years, if you picked his best players, we'd end up with almost a full starting lineup of decent solid players. 8-8.
I love how you write off the bad OL by pointing other teams had problems with their OL. Such a ringing endorsement of the job Ireland did here! Look at Geno Smith! See Ireland isn't so bad at QB!
Here we are, months after Ireland is gone, and there is still a defender on the boards. Incredible.
Why is this Charles Clay thread turned into a thread about a guy who is unemployed by the NFL?
Charlie big Play Clay..
I really think he and Landry will work well together, the middle of the field should have real win options.
Because GMJohnson really is Jeffrey Ireland.
That really would be awesome and hilarious if the GM of the dolphins joined this site. Kind of like how Incognito's dad did.
I like Clay, but would fall into the 'no extension' camp at this time. I just don't believe the production, position or uniqueness of his talent warrant an extension at this time.
I'm not writing of the bad OL, but clearly it's not an uncommon flaw if you look around the league and there were concrete reasons why things unfolded the way they did.
Basically it boiled down to Dion Jordan. Instead of trading for Albert like Philbin wanted, Ireland saved the extra 2nd rounder as ammo to trade up for DJ, figuring he could skate by with Jon Martin for one season and then grab Albert in FA this year w/o having to give up a premium draft pick to do it. Obviously that decision blew up in Ireland's face in 2013, but based on the info available at the time I can see why he did it and if Dion Jordan reaches his potential then it will go down as a good decision in my book.
Yes, it's months after he's gone. People are still taking pot shots at the man so I don't see the issue with giving him some credit for a guy like Clay. But more importantly, most of the players on the team were acquired on his watch, that's something to keep in mind, especially for Firelanders. Will there be some patience extended to Philbin and Hickey, only a year removed from Ireland's poor, poor, tenure as GM? Or will it be Philbin & Hickey's heads on the chopping block if the team struggles in 2014? LOL. No need to answer that one.
What I do need help with is a name for the group, how about the "Clean House Crew"?
When does his contract expire?
The tale of the extremes, I give him props for taking a chance and going after a talent like Dion, he and Sheldon Richardson were neck and neck as top 2 defenders, he didn't spend much at all to move up, however Jon Martin had no business going in the 2nd round..I just can't believe the same man drafted those two players, doesn't make any sense.
After this season.
Hmmm, it's an interesting one, but I'll disagree with you here and I know you know how the game works.
Reason why I would extend him.
1) I believe the offense is set up where he will have more space to operate this season
2) the other dude on the other side Landry is going to make life easier for him.
3) his production last year.
4) his lack of an injury history.
5) work ethic
6) offseason dedication
7) character and toughness
10) a very nice piece of the puzzle..
I think it's enough to take the chance on for the reason of saving your teams cap space in the long run.
I mean thats the game, we can all sit here and say yeah sure, lets see how he plays this season, well, if he blows the sh&& up, your going to be having less cap space..
Now you can say well, there's no telling what he's gonna do just based on last season, well, I gave 10 reasons why I would Rafs, what's yours why you wouldn't?
Depends on how much Clay wants.
The 100 top player in the league thing was very surprising, because I wouldn't put him as the 3rd best player on the team.
He is a great utility player in the Jim Jenson type mold, other than playing quarterback.
He can line up at fullback, wide receiver, tight end, and even runningback if Miami wanted to use him that way.
IMO, he is a 40 to 60 catch 500 to 1,000 yard type player. The type you want on your team, however not the type of player to build the team around.
Unless he starts doing plays like against San Diego and Pittsburgh on a more regular basis I don't see him more than a $3 million type player.
I would love to extend him two years with a 4 year 13.5 million dollar contract with 7 million guaranteed.
I believe that Graham's contract has created unreasonably high expectations for any TE contract. In other words, right now is a bad time to sign a TE not in Graham's class and expect any kind of a bargain.
I don't see Clay's talents as unique enough. I think there are a glut of those tweener types that are too big/slow for WR but not special size/speed types for a TE. Heck a guy like Gator might be another Clay given the opportunity. Gator is a long shot, but so was Clay. Obviously, I like what Clay has done, his versatility and his work ethic, but I don't see it as rare in terms of what the colleges are producing.
Just a half year of production. You better be very sure that the motivation, work ethic and production will continue.
I don't see much risk that he'll blow up stat-wise. He may produce better numbers, but I also expect that we'll use the run game more and that some of the passes that went to Clay last year will go to Landry, Gibson and the backs. I am hopeful that we'll see more efficient numbers out of the offense overall, but I'm also hopeful that that production will be distributed across the board.
Bottom line is that I don't see much risk that his price will sky-rocket and I do see some risk that he'll be a one year wonder. And that one year wonder risk may increase if he's signed to an extension now.
Martin was horrible, no doubt about it. Egnew has done next to nothing. Then you have Tannehill, Vernon and Miller, all I'm asking for is some objectivity...
Then I'd open up discussions now!