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SI Calls Ginn one of Top 10 Returners in the League

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Georgia Fin, Dec 20, 2007.

  1. njfinfan

    njfinfan The First Lady

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    That's awesome. Too bad he's not ahead of Leon Washington, but number 6 is great. :-)
     
  2. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Member

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    still no respect for Ginn tho as they think we could have grabbed Yamon Figurs in the third round instead if we needed a return man . . . . . when will they realize that we drafted Ginn to be our #1 WR one day . . . as well as an exciting returner . . . Ginn has shown the hands and improved route running ability all year . . . he just needs a QB to consistently get him the ball.
     
  3. Georgia Fin

    Georgia Fin Fin For Life

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    I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Parcells getting Keyshawn to come and give some pointers to Ginn, or all our recievers during training camp. How could Keyshawn say no, he is absolutely in love with Parcells.
     
  4. crkranz

    crkranz New Member

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    with the 9th pick in the draft the Dolphins select..........................

    The tenth best return man in the league - yeah. Pretty much sums up why we dead last.
     
  5. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Member

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    I got news for u, we could have drafted Calvin Johnson, Brady Quinn and whoever else . . . . we would still be dead last.
     
  6. crkranz

    crkranz New Member

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    I got news for you. You don't draft a hobbled return man with the 9th overall pick in the draft when you have a million other holes to fill. You don't build a team around a return guy.
     
  7. Kdawg954

    Kdawg954 Member

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    Right, we build it around drafting a QB, RB, C, WR, NT . . . . . . which is what we did last season . . . and we will continue this season with DT, LB, DB, OL . . . so what is your point?

    THEY DIDNT like Quinn, plain and simple . . . they like Beck, and that is who we have . . . just because u draft a guy in the first round doesn't mean THAT is who you are building your team around . . . and Ginn is hobbled? He has played every game . . . has caught almost everything thrown to him, returned a kick for a TD . . . had 2 more called back on fluke penalties . . . .gimme a break . . . hater. Ginn has been one of the few bright spots on this team.
     
  8. Bruzer

    Bruzer New Member

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    :ffic: i agree people still bashing ginn is making absolutely no sense to me. We didn't get quinn big deal get over it the past is gone...
     
  9. just win baby

    just win baby New Member

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    I still to this day don't understand why people call Ginn a return man. Ask Jim Tressell what Ted Ginn did for his offense as a WR.
     
  10. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    It's simple, to this day you still read comments made by folks that dont understand the basics! (and the site allows them to post illogical comments).

    Carry on....LOL!
     
  11. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    You can't really moderate ignorance, only hope to prevent it through example and proper guidance.
     
  12. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    And you don't call a guy 'just a return guy' when he's also the #1 WR. To do so points out the ignorance within you. At worse he'll be a solid #2 that can stretch the field and make the deep plays. At best he turns into a deep ball game breaker.
     
  13. thedayafter

    thedayafter New Member

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    Is this the very same SI that has us going to the SB... not sure... but I guess if you look at all the stats on Ginns returns he looks pretty good... lord knows he's had enough opportunities (85)... but if you look at value.... to date ... you could only say... he hasn't been worth the investment....

    If you look at the assets of top return guys... Ginn comes up very short with the lone exception being speed....

    But Cam could just be right when he called Ginn another Desmond Howard... pretty sure NOBODY wants to see that happen....
     
  14. thedayafter

    thedayafter New Member

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    Ginn ranks behind Martin Pelle and Hagen in receptions... and if you look at production he catches only 43% of targeted throws compared to Hagan's 54% and Ginn doen't produce first downs with catches either with only 26% of reception for firsts... to Hagans 38% for firsts....


    Now one could say it's not his role to produce first downs but to stretch the field and make big plays... but with only 1 TD this season... that POV pretty much goes out the window...

    Maybe next year... we can only wait and see at this point...
     
  15. Colorado Dolfan

    Colorado Dolfan ...dirty drownin' man?

    Oh, it does, does it? Who, pray tell, was throwing deep to him to nullify the POV? :001_rolleyes:
     
  16. thedayafter

    thedayafter New Member

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    The same guys that were throwing to Hagan, Martin and Pelle... what's your point!

    I'm not on here saying Ginn is a "bust" like some others... I'm just saying... he hasn't been a factor... and his production doesn't support his draft placement... it's not his fault he was picked 9th overall...
     
  17. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    :001_rolleyes: Only if your in the immediate gratification club. It's damn rare for a WR to break out in his first year. A grand total of under 1% drafted ever do. You could probably name this decade's on one hand and one of those was a rookie fluke (Michael Clayton).

    As for the deep part. He's busted through SEVERAL times only for our QB's to ignore such or as usual under/over throw him. There was one time that Cleo went to the short route and Ginn was near the endzone wide open with no one around for 15 yards waving his arms frantically and got ignored.

    When he was drafted most reasonable people here expected 25-35 catches for about 400 yards (If finheaven ever comes back I can link to that) and he's on pace for that.

    Also stats lie (after all Hagan's got less yards, less avg and he's clearly dropped several catchable balls in plain view and his long is 21 compared to Ginn's 54) and thedayafter it's doing it there. Hagan is the 'possession' WR so he better damn well have more first down passes. Ginn's supposed to be the stretcher and he's also got the defenses scheme's going towards him unless you really think they ever double Hagan up. Watching the games I only recall 2 passes that he out and out dropped that were good throws otherwise he's shown to have the best hands on the team. Once Ronnie is back, with improved Beck play we should see some significant growth in his 2nd year. I'm more concerned right now with getting a more viable 2nd WR as I can't trust Hagan's hands.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2007
  18. Dolphins77

    Dolphins77 New Member

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    With a little help from ST blocking, he could be top 3 no doubt. Look at Welker's numbers, his return averages jumped up now he's with the Patriots and their ST blocking.
     
  19. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    I don't see why people who were opposed and possibly still are opposed to the Ginn pick have to be labeled as ignorant. Isn't it possible to have a differing opinion without having the masses shout you down? Think how boring life would be if everyone thought the same thing.

    I, for one, was against the Ginn pick when we made it. I felt we should have drafted Brady Quinn in the first, Steve Smith in the second and Yamon Figurs in the third. Just my opinion.

    However, I do see the value in Ginn. I think he is a playmaker without a play to make right now. Meaning he needs people around him in both the return game and offense inorder to tap his potential. One thing I wanted topoint out about that article as well was that they said Jones-Drew is the only player on that list to be a starter as well. That is innaccurate since Ginn starts as a wideout for us.
     
  20. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Rookie WRs w/1,000 yds since '90
    Player Yr. Stats
    Joey Galloway, Seahawks | '95 | 1,039 yds, 7 TDs
    Terry Glenn, Pats '96 | 1,132 yds, 6 TDs
    Randy Moss, Vikes '98 | 1,313 yds, 17 TDs
    Anquan Boldin, Cards '03 | 1,377 yds, 8 TDs
    Michael Clayton, Bucs '04 | 1,193 yds, 7 TDs

    Anyone else I'm missing?

    Reading fundamentals ftw. Were calling those who refer to him as a "returner" only as ignorant. You wanted to spend 2 draft picks to fill the position that one Ted Ginn can do? Steve Smith by the way. 5 catches for 34 yards.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2007
  21. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    So its boring to Learn that the alphabet starts with A and ends with Z?
    Its boring to understand that 2 + 2 = 4?
    Its boring to know you stop at a RED light and proceed with Green light?

    Basically its boring to logically see you drafted a WR with blazing speed that is also a specialist at returning kicks and punts?
     
  22. thedayafter

    thedayafter New Member

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    Hey... if you're satisfied with Ginns production... no problem... but understand... a significant case can be made for the opposite POV...

    I see the same issues now with Ginn as were listed as negatives prior to the draft... slight build... not a physical player....struggles against physical CB's.... does not run precise routes... fails to break tackles.... doesn't change direction well...

    Can he get better... I sure hope so.... but Cams evaluation and comparison to Desmond Howard type abilities doen't excite me... if that's ok with you!!!
     
  23. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    You haven't seen such. Your just regurgitating the negatives. Please tell me exact plays where your seeing such? Slight build/Not Physical? He's taken a couple heavy shots at the sideline and sprung right back up. He hasn't been injured at all. His route running hasn't been spectacular but it's been solid. They aren't asking him to do to much yet. He's pretty much running the same 6 routes over and over. Doesn't change direction well? What about that catch he had no business getting where he turned upfield at the last second and caught a pass over the CB (anyone recall the play I'm talking about and has a link?).
     
  24. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    What other POV case can you make with FACTS? You cant take any other player you would have wanted to pick @ #9 and state with FACTS that "this" or "that" is what you would have gotten out of them on this team in this system. All you have is speculation and that is futile!

    Where as with Ginn, with FACTS and actuals, one can state "this is" what we have and what production we have received to date. He is a WR and a Returner.

    I will tell you this much, without Ginn on the outside for the final play vs. Ravens and the Safety moving over the top to protect against his speed, G. Camarillo does not enter the middle void of defenders and able to have the angle to out run the pursuing safety that had shaded to Ginn's side. That is a fact. So Ginn contributed to that play as importantly as anyone.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2007
  25. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    Considering I never once even was talking about you Van, and yet you felt compelled to reply says a lot. You can keep your smarmy reading fundamentals comments to yourself too. It isn't appreciated.

    As for what I wanted to do, yeah. I personally believe that Figurs is a better teturner and Smith is a better receiver. The reason Smith hasn't had an impact is because he quite simply hasn't been given the opportunity. Much like Ginn before Chambers was traded, he has too much talent in front of him. You put Smith on the Dolphins and he has probably comparable stats to Ginn as a wideout.

    Furthermore, I have always held the opinion that have a Jack of all Trades is a bad thing when it comes to football. If Ginn gets hurt, what then? We have to fill two positions instead of won. While it saves us a roster spot when he is healthy (and hopefully productive), it hurts us much more if and when he is out.

    But I am not here to call Ginn a bust. Like I said in my first post, I like Ginn. I think he is a playmaker on a team with very few of them. I simply don't know why people aren't allowed to express an opinion without being called names or have some guy respond like he is smarter and holier than thou and give some smart alek response.
     
  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Facts are stubborn things aren't they?

    Ginn also caught a 50yder against the Bills, and the Ravens had to resort to pass interference to keep on Ginn's 50yder.

    Compare Ted Ginn to Calvin Johnson, the two have very similar numbers except CJ has more catches in the Lions offense, Ginn of course blows him away in total yds.

    Ted Ginn was great pick for us, it will be a long time before we can afford to spend such a high pick on world class speed on offense.
     
  27. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    BigDogs, you have been around a long time an dI respect your opinion. However this posturing and going overboard the alphabet and math isn't relevant or in anyway backing your point.

    What you are stating are facts, not opinions. Fundamental difference. Drafting a wide receiver/punt returner and his family at #9 is much more of an open ended scenario. Come on, you know that.

    I never said it was boring to draft a wideout or to see the logic behind it. I said its boring to not allow for differing opinions on a message boards without being insulted and your mental capacity challenged. Which leads to the point that if everyone thought the exact same way, it would be boring. No debate no intelligent discussions, nothing.

    I am getting off topic slightly here, but I think you catch my drift.

    Oy vey, how did I get wrapped up in a Ted Ginn debate? Did I black out and wake up in April of 07?
     
  28. thedayafter

    thedayafter New Member

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    The negative exist... like it or not..... I watch all the games... I see a player that gets taken down by the slightest arm tackles on returns... I see a player that is hesitant to just plant his foot and go on returns.... and yes... he's a slight guy and not a physical player.... his routes remain suspect from what you can see on the tube....

    All that said... please note... I haven't used the "bust" word.. I haven't said he could'nt get better... I've said wait and see.... so I suggest you read the posts and at least acknowledge there's enough to suggest an opposing POV...
     
  29. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Gee I wonder how I figured you were talking about me.
     
  30. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Samphin -

    I respect yours too (honestly, it wasnt until after I responded to what I read did I even notice it was you that wrote it.....not that it means much...but kinda funny). But going overboard was my attempt to point out what we have in Ginn. That point is that we have a WR and a Returner. Its simply incorrect for folks to continue with the "Ginn is a returner we drafted at #9 argument". Its been proven he is both. That's all. So if they want to debate anything about the pick fine, but they shouldnt start with a false statement that he is only a returner. Its wrong. Ginn being a WR and a Returner is not opinion.

    Now, I read your comments about all your eggs in one basket and this actually made me think. If you think Smith is a better WR and Figurs is a better Returner I can see where you reach your view. I still like the pick because of his speed and what he changes (and what we have missed for a long time) when it comes to defenses having to stretch themselves based on his speed at the WR spot. Plus, he has lived up to his return billing also.

    I think next year and the ones to come he will be discussed about being a #1 overall pick on a roster of talent that commentators constantly discuss about what the Dolphins did right and how many top performers we have - he will be viewed as a key reason for our success. That is my view.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2007
  31. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Yup maybe that wasn't made clear enough by us earlier in the thread. It was that line of thought that was annoying the heck out of us.
     
  32. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Probably!

    I can see Samphin's point about an injury requiring 2 players to replace Ginn....but its the same perspective that we use to equate the tremendous value in having Ginn as WR and Returner.

    Lets hope he stays healthy, and also that who ever the extra body is on the roster that we have because of his duel talent is a contributor as well.
     
  33. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Ginn will become Santana Moss in time.

    We really need a veteran receiver to play #2, that can hold onto the ball and catch with his hands [Booker, get out of here]. Patrick Crayton please, thanks.
     
  34. Colorado Dolfan

    Colorado Dolfan ...dirty drownin' man?

    How many of them got the deep ball? That's the point...

    We don't have a passing deep threat to go along with our receiving deep threat... :001_rolleyes:
     
  35. High Definition

    High Definition No Smoke / No Drink 2011+

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    He'd of been #2 or #3 if it wasn't for Hagan & Camarillo.
     
  36. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    Actually, to be honest, I was responding to Stitches comments, not yours. Truthfully, I didn't even see your comments about ignorance until this post. :lol:

    But it doesn't matter really. I am not about to get into a debate over the merits and shortcomings of Ted Ginn being picked 9th overall. Its been done and quite frankly, I like Ted Ginn so the point is kind of moot with me.

    However, I will say this, people are spouting the just a punt returner line because Cam Cameron and Co. sold Ted Ginn as such. So don't blame the fans, blame Cameron who sold the pick initially as a punt/kick returner first, and a receiver second.
     
  37. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Man, I hope not. Moss is overrated to no end.

    Ginn projects better as a new Steve Smith, not a new Santana Moss.
     
  38. pocoloco

    pocoloco I'm your huckleberry Club Member

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    I think you'll see two guys from this last draft play at the all-world level, Peterson and Willis. We had a shot at Willis at least, but he wasn't even on the radar.
     
  39. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    ur gonna eat ur words one day ..trust me .........furthermore, the hobbled return man ran a 4.32 forty and has only been playing receiver for two years i believe it was. You gotta be PATIENT and let him DEVELOP. you guys want everything to happen in one second, get some patience.
     

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