I don't recall many arguing that Hartline was or should be a #1 WR. In fact, if I were comparing how many criticized him vs how many said he should be a #1, it would probably be around 30/1. And I disagree that most critics were talking about him only as a #1. The criticisms continued after he was signed to what was obviously not #1 WR money.
Are you talking about his improvisational skills now or as a rookie? one of the main criticisms of Rodgers coming out was that he was too robotic. I doubt anybody envisioned him as the mobile QB is now. If you wanted a mobile QB in that draft then Alex Smith was your goal.
I thought I remember scouting reports saying Rodgers was good moving around the pocket and extending plays, and throwing on the run. The one thing I remember though is they did not say he was someone who could run.
Here's one I recall from 2008: Alex Smith Scouting report: An accurate passer who is very intelligent and has excellent leadership skills. He reads coverages well, works hard and is very mature. Buyer beware: Smith played in a gimmicky offense at Utah and will have to adjust to taking snaps from under center in order to adjust to the NFL. His arm strength has been questioned. Why 49ers will draft him: Smith has all the intangibles, is very coachable and has only scratched the surface of his vast potential. Why it won't happen: Cal QB Aaron Rodgers, who visits today, is closer to being a finished product and the 49ers need immediate help. Quotable: "While (Smith is) not the next John Elway or Troy Aikman, lacking that type of arm strength, the overall package of skills he brings to the table definitely makes him deserving of a lofty NFL grade." -- Mel Kiper Jr., draft expert. Aaron Rodgers Scouting report: Has great arm strength and mechanics, and is extremely accurate. Played in a pro-style offense in college and has a high football IQ. Buyer beware: Rodgers is 2 inches shorter than Utah's Alex Smith, the other QB the 49ers are considering, and does not have great mobility. Why 49ers will draft him: Rodgers already has an understanding of the West Coast offense, and his local roots put him over the top. Why it won't happen: The 49ers will determine that Smith has the greater upside, or that WR Braylon Edwards is the most talented player available, or they will find a trading partner and move down in the draft. Quotable: "Rodgers is tough, confident, incredibly poised and, most importantly, very few of his passes hit the ground." Mel Kiper Jr., draft expert. http://www.ninersnation.com/2008/6/18/554001/alex-smith-vs-aaron-rodger I generally recall Rodgers being considered as the lesser athlete. He had some pocket mobility, but was not a threat to run. There was also the whole "robotic" knock that all the Tedford QBs got.
There were threads focused on the suggestion that Hartline & Bess are a quality starting pair of receivers and other threads suggesting Hartline is good enough to be the top dog [paraphrasing]. Many Miami fans, even fans of Hartline, grew tired of a portion of the fan base's desire to turn him into the poster boy of inflated ability. I was one of the most outspoken posters against him during that time but I also mentioned repeatedly how valuable he is to the offense when not having to serve as the primary target. IIRC the criticism continued only because a portion of the opposite side kept it going, but I could be wrong. Now that Wallace is on the team and things are in better order at the WR position I don't hear a peep of true criticism about Hartline, or maybe I simply missed it.
That's how I recall him at Cal too. The very mobile athletic QB he's become in Green Bay was a later transformation, and perhaps his style of play at Cal had something to do with what Tedford coached him to do too.
As long as Hartline doesn't fall down on his butt every time he has the ball everyone will be happy....cue gifs of people falling over themselves....joking.
Ok, so were narrowing it down into something we can at least pinpoint, and that is, the moment of anticipating that the play isn't there, or that the chaos in the pocket is too much, and how he deals with that moment mentally and athletically, to me there is a delay there like you have alluded to, and that very well could be from the lack of experience you speak of, I mean it's hard to put into context how athletically it isn't transferring at this level into his qb'ing, considering he played receiver at a big time conference level, but I didn't see it translate, and it wasn't that close imo .Im not sure the agility needed to be an excellent individual playmaker is there, so, can he get better at it, yes, thru experience and learning to anticipate conflict better, will he ever be that playmaker I was coveting when looking for a franchise Qb, at this point I would say no, does that mean he can't make up for it by being more of a pocket passer, no.
2008? Wasn't he drafted in 2005? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2005/draft/players/64079.html http://www.draftinsiders.com/node/1288 These guys fricking nailed Rodgers by the way
You really should look at Tanny's and Rodger's respective college numbers. They are virtually identical....scarily so.
And this is the point where we break down. There is nothing a QB can do on an individual basis that is not severely hindered by a knee injury, inexperience, coaching and lack of talent around him. Luck & CKap can not make things happen if they are injured or there's no one to throw the ball to, which is what Tannehill was shackled with.
Because your not understanding the exact moments for which I'm looking at.. The trait I'm talking about ONLY happens when pressure is right upon the Qb and what he does athletically to escape and get himself out of trouble..in that moment is the talent for which I'm looking at, that moment and what he does in it has nothing to do with receivers around him, or coaching, it's an innate trait that cannot be taught, and only appears when pressure is directly upon the QB.
Yup. That is my good friend, Frank Coyle, who wrote that report. Frank was totally sold on Rodgers well before the '05 draft. Had him #1 overall and told me SF should take him #1 and if they didn't, Miami should definitely take him at #2 overall.
Their report on him was spot on. From top to bottom, 8 years later. He did underrate Rodger's scrambling/running ability but that's about as glowing of a report as you can write. Your buddy is Ms Cleo with this report.
Nice joke buddy. How bout this..this ability to escape the pocket with precise anticipation and specific athleticism is a specific talent that one either has or doesn't, and it doesn't matter about the other 10 guys in the moment that it needs to happen, its only engaged when pressure is bearing down on the player, it's an Individual play..some are elite at it, some are lethargic at it, some are decent and can get a little better thru experience, but being elite at it is a gift from the football gods.. Ryan falls into decent at it with a good chance to get better at it thru experience, better anticipation, and a quicker stronger body.
Aaron Rodgers always had the talent by the way, Rodgers release was so damn fast, his footwork so precise, Tedfords system so catered to the quick accurate pass, their philosophy was to design offense to out quick pressure so he didn't need to go there often..but when he did, he evaded it just like he does now..
And compared with years past, the problem with that is..........??????????? I am glad to see that the Pandemic Eeyore Complex of 2002 through 2011 seems to be somewhat diminished of late. I hope that trend continues, though I doubt it will survive the first five games. That is all I am worried about - The First Five. If the team can survive that run, they will be in good shape for the rest of the season. If not, it will be a struggle (as will reading this and other boards!)
So it doesn't matter about the 10 guys on his team, but also isn't at all reflective of the pass rusher's ability to close? Ok. Must be why Aaron Rodgers got sacked on 8.5% of his registered drop backs last year while Tannehill only got sacked 6.7% of the time. Oh, but at least on the times Aaron was sacked he lost on average one less yard than RT. I guess all that shows he's got elite escape-ability and not at all reflective on anyone else's ability to do their job on a given play.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you hadn't identified that as what we differed on. I understood and have been saying that's the difference for awhile now. IMO that's all about experience. I'm sure if you check their combine numbers for cone drills you'll find that they all compare. It's not about athleticism. It's about seeing things early enough. I think it's obvious that the guys with twice the experience see things sooner.
You're right about the draft date. (brain fart, I guess). I think that much of the mobility limitations I recall were in comparison to Alex Smith. In that draft there were two top QBs and Rodgers was the less athletic one.
It's all connected, the anticipation to know when the right moment is to gtfo, and the specific athletic ability necessary to gtfo.
I understand an Olineman not doing his job will engage the specific skill faster, that doesn't change the point I'm making, it doesn't change the moment a Qb needs to initiate the trait in his mind and body,
I knew you knew exactly what I was talking bout, that's not why I said what I said in my orevious post, and you very well may be right, and I hope you are, and that is, experience alone will get him to anticipate the pressure better thus allowing him to make precise escapability moves with the athletic ability he does possess.. This whole conversation started when I said Ryan does not compare in this specific dept with the qbs that are elite in the dept..(Luck, RG, Wilson, Kap, Rodgers, Ben. Bree's ) some said that's because of inexperience, injury, poor receivers, and coaching constricting him to the pocket, my take is, no, that's not the case, the trait identified is something completely instinctive, and imo only an injury can curb the instinct and limit the athleticism to escape into a playmaking mode..Last year, when those individual moments occurred throughout the season, Ryan did not measure up to others..I do think that he can get better at the trait, thru anticipating better, which comes from experience, and specific strength training, but only by so much.. I think some think to themselves, what is he talking about, Ryan is deadly on the run ( I agree, he is), but that's not what I'm referring to in this discussion.. When I evaluate Ryan, please understand I'm not saying he was a bad pick, I'm only trying to see where he's going to measure up to what we missed out on, and Im interested and hopeful to see if he can make it up in other depts, such as from the pocket, which I think he can.. Lastly, I believe the trait I'm talking about is becoming more important in today's game, individual play making ability by the Qb, precise athletic movement and multitasking by the brain, in that moment of chaos, to me is important, (this is why I coveted Kap, Wilson) I feel like it's becoming increasingly more difficult to win if your a pocket passer..Unless you are on the level of a Brady or Manning.
I am 100% positive that increased experience will speed up the decision making (in those specific situations) and individual playmaking ability of a QB that has the demonstrated athletic ability of RT.
His overall analysis of players is at least as good as Kiper, Ourlads and Nolan Nawrocki at PFW. Often better.
I always liked Solomon, he gives his opinion without a ego. Whether you like his opinion, thats up to whomever. Need more guys to let their ego go and just give a honest opinion.
