Solving the Defensive End situation(Wake, Vernon, and Jordan)
49 replies
DisgustipatesubscriberOPDion Jordan being under-played has been a pretty big issue with fans, but I think there's a relatively complicated, somewhat related set of circumstances at the defensive end position. Basically, they've got a lot of guys that play the same general position, and need to find a way to manage them better.
I think there are some aspects to consider:
Cameron Wake is a left-side player only
The base defense doesn't typically play with two "wide" defenders- Generally, you've got a wide weak-side guy, and a more tighter aligned strong-side guy.
All of Wake, OV, and Jordan are "wide" defenders for the most part
Jordan hasn't taken any snaps as a base-package LB
Part of the problem is in practice, someone has to play Jared Odrick's "role". The idea seemed to be going into the season that it would be Olivier Vernon's job. Week 1 and 2 he lined up heavily in that position, and he got his ass kicked badly. When Wake went down, he was moved to more of an edge rusher role with Derrick Shelby as a closed end, and he bloomed.
After Wake's return, when he and Vernon are on the field, most typically that seems to be Wake's job. He ends up lining up closer to the ball in 6-, or sometimes 5-techniques, and if that's the offensive strong side he ends up lining up between the tackle and tight end. He's made plays and done decent from the position, but I don't know if it's ideal for him. He's still a quite good player, but I think the edge positioning is better.
That's an issue in its own regard, but adding Dion Jordan makes it more problematic. He's not really a guy whom comes out of the box capable of playing that 6-technique position. He was a 230-240 pound college linebacker whom rarely lined up in a 2-point stance. It would seem to be most logical that he would play linebacker in the base formation, as there's a long history of guys of Jordan's background(Former 3-4 OÆüW¾with coverage upside) playing the SOLB position. However, the team just re-signed Misi and they don't seem willing to put Jordan there.
I think the defense needs to be changed to accommodate the players, regardless if Kevin Coyle is here or not. I don't think you necessarily need to come up with a situation where all three guys are almost always on the field at the same time generally, but I think that's an option worth considering. I do think you need to find a situation in which you can maintain "two" edge rushers on the field, and find at least occasional packages featuring all three. Here's I think the options:
A New York Giants-style 4-3 - This I think is the best option if Coyle is retained, because it's the closest to what he does now. Basically you've got 3 "edge" rushers on the field at all times. It differs a bit in terms of base alignment and rush tendencies from what Coyle the SOLB/Kiwanuka position rushes more than what Coyle and the Bengal's defense asks from an SOLB-position, and I think the strong-side DE plays a bit of a wider technique more often, both things which I think would fit Wake/Jordan well.
I'm not a huge fan of the "NASCAR" package being employed in Miami because none of our edge rushers play interior positions particularly well, and at least current the Dolphins have excellent pass rushing defensive tackles, beyond what I think you can expect from an edge rusher can do reduced. I think they'd have to come up with a different Nickel package solution.
A Tampa-2/Wide-9 style front - Basically, a defensive front that is adverse to the idea of a defensive end not lining up shaded outside the outer-most blocker. If an offense lines up real unbalanced, the defense will still keep that edge rusher wider. It's worked with pairs like Dwight Freeney/Robert Mathis or Trent Cole/Jason Babin in the past. It doesn't really mean 3 on the field in terms of base package, but I think it allows you to feature two guys strongly. If you do it "wrong" though, you're up ****'s creek in terms of run defense though.
A 3-4 Defense - Basically, your two OLBs are always lined up as edge rushers and you're not exposing yourself to huge spacing issues in the middle of your defense because you've got three big men instead of two. I think this works well because of how many coverage-oriented guys are in the current defense. There's also a fair amount of 3-4 allied Nickel packages that work well with the idea of getting 3 on the field without an interior guy.
RoninFin4subscriberPersonally, I'd go with #3 if this staff is gone, and #1 if Coyle is retained. I'd still prefer a 3-4 defense above all else; I think that allows you to get the most out of Wake, Jordan, and OV.
@KevinMD4
DisgustipatesubscriberI think basically you can summarize the situations as the Dolphins sticking to the "rules" of a defense they aren't really in a good position to run. They were a little bit unorthodox trying to run basically a reversed 4-3 Under last year when Odrick, now they're all over the place in terms of personnel and positioning.
Stringer BellsubscriberThey should have signed Michael Bennett.
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djphinfansubscriberThis defense is playing very well right now, their coverage is at a high level, their pass rush is elite, it's getting to that point of consistency, I think the most effective use of the #3 overall pick is at linebacker, so can we just make this a personnel decision in the offseason, look for someone who would take wheeler or Misi off our books and give us a pick.?
Bpkluxury_boxA base 3-4 on 1st downs, with a nickel/dime front that has Dion and Wake outside and OV inside, but mixing in some stunts between OV and Dion would be interesting, or just slanting OV to the tackle when Dion drops back, etc. Would be interesting.
Thing is, Dion is best in a 2 pt stance, which means 3-4 (since they kept Misi, which bothered me, since eI think that was Dion's ideal run-downs position in a 4-3)…. meanwhile Wake is best with his hand in the dirt, in a 4-3.
We def have a strange mix. And we need to make a decision because if we are not clear and committed to the front's scheme, it makes it harder to weight the importance of Soliai vs Starks at the end of this year.
Put Dion Jordan at OLB, and put Wheeler on the bench.
We need Cam Wake, Olivier Vernon and Dion Jordan on the field at all times.
mlb1399forum_veteranOur defense is currently ranked #9 in points allowed, we are tied for 4th in sacks and 2nd in INT's. OV has stepped his game and Wake is Wake. We do have a unique and tough problem to have with all 3.
I like Jordan at LB. His ability to cover the tall TE's is a major plus and he's been really good in coverage. He also has the ability to move around and to attack the QB. I don't know what the base defense looks like but I do know that we have a lot of pieces that can disrupt an offense and I want to see more of it.
DOLPHAN1luxury_box"mlb1399 wrote:
Our defense is currently ranked #9 in points allowed, we are tied for 4th in sacks and 2nd in INT's. OV has stepped his game and Wake is Wake. We do have a unique and tough problem to have with all 3.
I like Jordan at LB. His ability to cover the tall TE's is a major plus and he's been really good in coverage. He also has the ability to move around and to attack the QB. I don't know what the base defense looks like but I do know that we have a lot of pieces that can disrupt an offense and I want to see more of it.
didn't OV get one of his sacks right up the middle? couldn't he shift to the middle and line Jordan up outside? eh what do I know any way lol
GMJohnsonNew MemberUm,
Our problem is that we have too many good players.
Why solve it at all?
Disgustipatesubscriber"GMJohnson wrote:
Um,
Our problem is that we have too many good players.
Why solve it at all?
I didn't and don't advocate trading anyone, the issue is a matter of getting the players we have on the field and being used to their abilities.
ToddPhinluxury_boxUntil we become a high scoring offense I don't have a problem with the flipped 4-3 Under but I'd want an appropriate right side closed end, not Vernon. We're not lighting up the scoreboard and in turn forcing opponents into pass-heavy mode, so I'm not sure I see the need for 2 rush ends in base D at the expense of run support. I'd rather go stouter vs the run while opposing offenses can afford to be more conservative & cautious so that we can force them into more frequent 2nd/3rd & long situations and out of their comfort zones. Use the run D to help manufacture more turnovers since we don't have a Brady or Manning applying pressure to make opponents error prone. We'd still have an extra pass rusher on the field if needed to blitz or rush 5, but he'd be at OLB instead of RE. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Misi to give Jordan the full time OLB gig and then let Vernon rotate with Wake at LE and Jordan at OLB to keep everyone fresh. We only need 3 bodies between those 2 positions. The 4 we have now is just overkill.
OnehondosubscriberIts just my opinion but we have too much invested in Jordan for him to be a situational player. Its not his fault, its just the way he is being utilized. I also believe we are fortunate that OV is coming along as well as he is. With Wake on the north side of 30 we can have hope that we have a ready replacement in OV or Jordan.
GMJohnsonNew Member"Disgustipate wrote:
I didn't and don't advocate trading anyone, the issue is a matter of getting the players we have on the field and being used to their abilities.
Yeah, just thinking about it makes my head hurt.
All I wanna know is, where did all these guys come from, who is the GM of this team and what the hell is his problem?
GMJohnsonNew Member"Onehondo wrote:
Its just my opinion but we have too much invested in Jordan for him to be a situational player. Its not his fault, its just the way he is being utilized. I also believe we are fortunate that OV is coming along as well as he is. With Wake on the north side of 30 we can have hope that we have a ready replacement in OV or Jordan.
Wait, Wake is over just 30 and we already have his replacement(s) on the roster developing?
Holy sheeeeiit, who is responsible for this madness!!!
Dol-Fan Dupreeforum_veteran"Onehondo wrote:
Its just my opinion but we have too much invested in Jordan for him to be a situational player. Its not his fault, its just the way he is being utilized. I also believe we are fortunate that OV is coming along as well as he is. With Wake on the north side of 30 we can have hope that we have a ready replacement in OV or Jordan.
His cap hit isn't that big.
Holland is a huge upgrade over McCain
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rdhstlr23subscriber"GMJohnson wrote:
Yeah, just thinking about it makes my head hurt.
All I wanna know is, where did all these guys come from, who is the GM of this team and what the hell is his problem?
Don't want to turn it into an Ireland thread. But, I don't question his acquiring of talent. We have talent. It's basic accountability.
You can't go potentially 5 straight years of missing playoffs and no real improvement and still have a job.
GMJohnsonNew Member"rdhstlr23 wrote:
Don't want to turn it into an Ireland thread. But, I don't question his acquiring of talent. We have talent. It's basic accountability.
You can't go potentially 5 straight years of missing playoffs and no real improvement and still have a job.
I count this as year 2 of the Philbin era, not year 6 of the Ireland era and I think there has been a lot of improvement from year one to year two.
You can't ask a guy to build an apartment complex and then in the middle of construction say no no no I want shopping mall instead, then blame him for not having the job completed on the original time table.
rdhstlr23subscriberI'm sorry but that rationalization doesn't fly in any other sport, business, or successful organization.
He hired a new coach. He's already fired one. There isnothing you can tell me that takes acaccountability of Ireland.
That analogy was brutal btw.
Ireland built an apartment. It didn't meet expectations and now he's building another one that's failing too. He even had the biggest budget to make it nice and it's still the same mediocre building.
unifiedtheoryluxury_box"GMJohnson wrote:
Yeah, just thinking about it makes my head hurt.
All I wanna know is, where did all these guys come from, who is the GM of this team and what the hell is his problem?
Same guy who has built the worst offensive line in the league, has assembled one of the thinnest teams in the league that is on it's way to another astonishing 8-8 season.
I'm on Twitter @ut_pez
ToddPhinluxury_box"unifiedtheory wrote:
Same guy who has built the worst offensive line in the league, has assembled one of the thinnest teams in the league that is on it's way to another astonishing 8-8 season.
You sure that's not on the strength & conditioning department?
rdhstlr23subscriber"unifiedtheory wrote:
Same guy who has built the worst offensive line in the league, has assembled one of the thinnest teams in the league that is on it's way to another astonishing 8-8 season.
Take the good with the bad. You're right.
At the end of the day, Ireland did some really good, even great acquisitions, for Miami. But if you can't pull off the playoffs in 5 years, you've got to go...assuming they miss.
Disgustipatesubscriber"unifiedtheory wrote:
Same guy who has built the worst offensive line in the league, has assembled one of the thinnest teams in the league that is on it's way to another astonishing 8-8 season.
I think the offensive line thing is debatable, but I don't see how this is even close to the thinnest rosters.
xphinfanxforum_veteran"GMJohnson wrote:
Wait, Wake is over just 30 and we already have his replacement(s) on the roster developing?
Holy sheeeeiit, who is responsible for this madness!!!
Careful your not suppose to point out positives.
That's why they play the games!:yes:
meh, you guys are over thinking it a lil bit. In today's NFL with the rookie salary scales you don't have to rush a guy into a starting position unless you are forced to because the vets are stinkin it up. Let 95 marinate for a year or two, by that time Wake (unfortunetly) will be reaching the end of his career and you just plug in the now ready Jordan.
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