Well, this is my current drum to bang, Special Teams, for all of the talk of the offensive struggles, I had Special Teams envy watching the Ravens consistently spectacular ST play pinning opponents inside their own 20 yd line while generating long returns themselves.
So let's take a look at the "cost" of putting together such a unit:
Billy Cundiff:
Cost: UDFA
Sam Koch:
Cost: 6th rd pick in 2006
David Reed: Led the NFL in kick return avg with over 29 ypa
How acquired 5th rd pick
Leading ST tackler Brandon Abeyandejo
How acquired:FA
So for 2 late rd picks and 2 FA's the Ravens finished 4th in the NFL in ST play, I do not see any reason why Sparano could and should not expect a similar performance from Darren Rizzi and Dave Fipp, the cost is so incredibly low to build a solid unit there really is no excuse not to have a better unit than 29th in the NFL.
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If it really is this easy to make a great ST unit, then everyone already has one. But if eveyone's is good we cant ALL be #1. there are 32 teams, thus 32 rankings, someone has to be 32. Im sure you are simplifying this WAY too much. Coaching is a big deal and can make studs out of nobodys.
GMJohnson, dolfan7171, arsenal and 1 other person like this. -
one touchback is all we ask for. and some decent coverage when possible.
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Oh sure, add in the first step is firing the crappy ST coach from the previous season..we did not do that..we did add a solid assistant in Dave Fipp.
Real problem is, Sparano just will not use roster slots for ST only type of players, they hand Rizzo or Bonamego guys they want to develop for the offense or defense and expect good results and it has not worked save for a 10th place finish in 2009, the two other yrs under Sparano we have finished exactly at 29th in the NFL.
Avg finish is 24th or so over the last three yrs. -
Carpenter doubled his touchback total to..9!
Cundiff had 40.
The answer is find a kickoff distance specialist, the reality is Sparano will never do that, he does not put enough emphasis on ST play. -
A great ST would be nice, but I don't think it's as easy as you're making it sound... I mean you've got Green Bay who honestly doesn't have really any position on their team that you can look at and say they're deficient, and they seem to do just fine, even with (if I recall) the worst ST in the league. I'd think if it were just FA, UDFA, 5th rounder that they'd have shored that up.
ST is great, and useful. But we might not get FA this year, and I really don't think we're 1 draft pick away from having an all star ST cast.
I like where your head is at personally, and I think it's something that would be nice, but I think it's more of a luxury when compared to how absolutely awful the offense played. We can play the field position game all day but if we can't capitalize when we have the ball it's kind of meaningless. -
Well the difference is, in the NFCN only the Bears are good at ST's, the Packers are not, the Bears are an inferior team to the packers but that ST edge allowed them to win the division and a playoff game.
In the AFCE, the Jets, Pats and Bills finished on avg 9th (4/9/17) we finished 29th again, we give up a huge advantage in every divisional game we played in 2010, to me Sparano should want to close that gap but it remains to be seen if he will put any resources into the ST or just sort of let Rizzi figure it out as best as he can.
The last 3yrs he has been just sort of letting the ST languish and the cost to improve it would be 3 additional roster slots, one for a Returner, one for a Full time gunner and one for a kick off specialist. -
That is the rub. Can you burn the roster spots?
Titans got a good return guy in Marc Mariani. 7th round pick wow. No production at the WR position at all yet. Just a great returner all around. -
Happens all of the time in the NFL, Sparano is trying to buck that and the results have been terrible.
Mariani was on our radar in the last draft as well, for whatever reason they just didn't pull the trigger, but with the small horde of longshot Wr's maybe one of them develops into a ST stud? -
:yes:
As long as Carpenter has pop gun kickoffs, and we put raw players on special teams, we will be featured in highlight films for as long as this continues. -
Hopefully they feel they have plenty of depth now because the bottom, or near bottom of the roster better have some special teams aces. If not Sparano will see his demise....
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I brought the subject up in the Ted Ginn thread, but for as much as Tony loves to preach Special Teams and winning the hidden yardage battle, he doesn't put the effort into it. I think that Sparano sees special teams as a proving ground. He makes young guys and bottom of the roster guys play out there to earn play time on offense/defense. He let out special teams go to absolute **** before he fired Bonno. Not to knock the guy, but I don't think Tony really understands the importance of special teams in today's NFL. There are players in the league now solely for their ability on returns. Hester, Ginn, and Cribbs come to mind off the bat. Special teams needs to be built up just like any other unit on the football team. However I feel that this coaching staff has taken the approach of put 11 random guys out there and hope for the best. And that simply wont cut it. A complete change in mentality towards special teams is required this off-season, not just the addition of a player or two.
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Well, yes and no, I say that because "yes" that is exactly Sparano's approach, put 11 guys out there, hope for the best, it's fine as long as there are no flags on us or returns for TD's against us, "no" because most teams use Specials to get young guys on the field who are good prospects to see snaps on offense or defense.
That is a part of the reason why Specials have started seasons soo poorly, they do not keep "core" specials players they tend to churn them out of Miami and just replace them with UDFA's and Rooks, which has led to things such as Cam Wake still covering kick offs and punts..or a fmr ST standout winning a starting job and being replaced with someone who is not as good at ST's like Chris Clemons being replaced by Nate Ness.
Now teams can win in the NFL with poor ST play, the problem is they normally have other units that are dominant, for example the Packers are poor on Specials but their Offense is Top 5 and their Defense is Top 5, we are not in that situation which is why I'm banging on this drum. -
funny thing is we've had some ST standouts such as Izzo and Abeyandejo (maybe it was his brother) on this team ... and then let them go without an afterthought ....
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im sorry but this thread is ridiculous...
How to put together an offense
Tom Brady - 6th round pick
Ben Green Ellis - UDFA
Danny Woodhead - UDFA
Wes Welker - UDFA
Deoin Branch - 2nd Rd Pick
so we should be able to use just 1 high pick and the rest UDFAs or low round picks to build the best offense in the league... if Sparano can't do that he's a moron! :headscratch:
Not to mention special teams is more than the returner, kickers and gunner... as i recall it you have 11 players on the field at once and it takes all 11 to be successful, especially on returns... -
Different skill sets altogether arsenal, you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
That is where the rubber meets the road, you in fact DO need those players as a part of a core on Special Teams, the fact of the matter is we do not have them and Sparano has shown no propensity to spend any resources to acquire them or put them on the roster aside from a 2 game tryour for Clifton Smith early in 2010, otherwise he has been happy with Pat Cobbs returning kicks even over Ted Ginn.
The last 3 yrs, Carp's touchbacks have been minimal, we have never retained the leading Tackler on ST, and we have yet to keep a Returner. -
Yep, and it is the same Abenyandejo, he went to the Bears and went to pro bowls, then landed with the Ravens simply because he was such an excellent ST player, something Sparano would never dream of doing.
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Not saying that Carpenter has a "Thunder Foot" but, a number of his KO's were directional kicks to compensate for questionable coverage. He's not great on KO's but, is not bad.
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Padre, For whatever it's worth, PFF's overall ST rankings have the Rams at #1, followed by Atlanta, Baltimore, and a tie between Cleveland and Miami for #4.
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I tracked Football Outsiders DVOA and enhanced DVOA rankings for the Dolphins ST unit for the last two yrs and we were horrible, bad enough that I question PFF's rankings as bull****.
Put it this way, how can we be ranked even in the Top 15 after surrendering 5 Returns for TD's and having 9 touchbacks and no Returns for TD's and maybe 3 kickoff returns past the 50 yd line?
Look for yourself:
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst -
IMO STs have limited impact relative to the offense and defense simply b/c of the number of plays. So while I love watching an exciting returner, I'm not gong to make that a priority. My goal with STs would be to establish continuity by getting the best coach I can and not churning his players so often. If I have a STs unit that is just average and doesn't lose the game for me, then I'm happy. That means I want a LS, K and P who are capable of doing their job without making major mistakes the vast majority of the time. And it means that I want my coverage units to stop the big play most every time, but I'm not going to care about a difference of 5 or less yards better starting position for the opponent that I'm guessing is the difference between being ranked 15th and top 5. As for the returner, unless he's an elite talent (among the best in history), then I want him to be able to do something else.
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I have not seen the Rams. From what I did see of the Falcons, Ravens, and Browns, I do understand why they would be ranked high. Not so on are Phins.
I asked for an explanation from PFF. Will let ya know their response.
I do know that Fields be the #2 punter, and Carpenter being the #2 FG kicker, lower overall, has to have something to do with it. -
I pointed out the Ravens ST unit more or less as I knew this line of thought existed.
Consider pinning the opponent inside the 20 yd line on punts, and not allowing returns past the 20 equates to more field the opponent has to drive to attempt to score, that means a reduction in points allowed as well as controlling field position making it easier for your offense to score.
That is what happens by putting Pat Cobbs on returns, it is not the lack of TD's it is the lack of generating consistently above average field position, the Bears for example, led the nfl in starting field position of around the 37 yd line, 45 yds for FG distance, 63.1 yds for a TD.
http://footballoutsiders.com/info/FO-basics
And
Basically we are trading consistent field position disadvantages for a FG kicker whose avg FG made number will vary from yr to yr but will return to the mean. -
I agree, to a degree. Our LS, P, and Kicker are at the top of the NFL. Our coverage, aside from a few games has been good.
For me, a legit threat returning kicks is very important. It's not just when they touch the ball, it's also how teams kick to them, off to the side, out of bounds, etc. Many times this means 10, 15, 20 yards of field position.
Take Ginn. He is far from one of the best in history. However, he made opposing team think twice about giving him the ball on kicks. That, and the occasional game winning performance, adds a lot to a team.padre31 likes this. -
All true, the only one who has not made a pro bowl is Brandon Fields and he had a pro bowl worthy season, but what that should tell us is while there are good pieces, the overall whole is very limited, extremely limited.
How can you have 3 pro bowl quality ST players and have such a overall poor performance?
Take for example David Reed, a 5th rd pick who did not have a pass thrown his way all yr in Baltimore, he was the Returner, he led the NFL in ypa on Returns, and our guy, Nolan Carroll, played frequently at Cb? That is one of the huge differences between the two approaches, and one works well, one does not.
Exactly, it is not Ted Ginn per se, it is the role and the production on the field, Sparano simply pays it no attention no matter what he says to the contrary the fact is he refuses to detail resources to the ST Coordinator solely for their unit, they have to work with the leftover prospects for other units.
How can that produce net positives? It hasn't that is why the avg finish of the unit is 24th in a division whose 3 other teams avg finish is 9th or better. -
Yep, under Sparano:
2008: 29th
2009: 10th
2010: 29th
That is not to say FO is perfect as their weather adjusted DVOA is somewhat nonsensical, however it also can be said that Sparano's ST approach is easily the worst in the AFCE and that is being completely objective. -
Fields most definitely had a Pro Bowl year. I can't recall the game but, he did win one for us. This is pretty much unheard of aside from Ray Guy, who should be in the HOF.
Ireland has agreed that he made a mistake in not addressing the ST, especially a KR. That in itself is unheard of. I fully expect he will fix that problem this year. -
AFC All Pro KR Marc Mariani:
http://www.egriz.com/grizboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43284
We interviewed him twice, did not pull the trigger we went with Chris McCoy at #214, Mariani went off at #222 to the Titans. -
In all due respect, we do have top kickers, which does mean a whole lot. Our KR's have been good, and our coverage, in spite of the early season blunders, were good as well.
I have to question both sites on their grading. Ido recall a current player saying that PFF's grade were about the same as those of his team. -
They rate Carpenter a the 8th worst kicker on FG/XP. That seems kinda silly. JMO
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Rich Gosslen's end of yr rankings say right about the same thing, only slightly worse in 2008, and slightly better in 2009, sorry bro, ST has been hot garbage outside of any measuring stick save for PFF's, and with 5 returns allowed for TD's, PFF's methods are looking sketchy at best.
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People tend to forget he closed the season poorly and his kickoff distance is simply sub par.
He missed those FG's vs the Bills and his season went downhill from that point in time. -
There are many aspects of ST's. Kickers, LS's, returners, etc. Let's forget about the "so called experts." Where, and why, did our team merit a horrible rating, by some, with their play? Can we PLEASE forget the Pats game? :)
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Carpenter's max height was tied for third on KO's. Does that matter?
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special teams is a legitimate third of the game, no matter how neglected by many
they set the field position for both the offense & defense & scores points
to win a game you need to win in any combination, any two of the the three basic units:
Offense, Defense, Special Teams
if you care to take the time to research the subject, or do the math the facts will bare me out -
Well that is the funny thing SB, the Patriots ST massacre pushed us back to 29th, Rizzi took over for Bonamego and we improved all the way up to 17th, then slid backwards all the way to 29th, and if one thinks about it, the Pats had 2 Returns for TD's vs us in 2010, one in each game, that should have been the nail in Rizzi's coffin but he was retained and Dave Fipp added, Fipper is a decent ST guy but really Rizzi should have been canned as the unit played that last game flat as a carpet which in ST parlance means they quit on the Coach.
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Not quite 23rd, ST is worth 33% of a good offense or defense, so 23rd it is 1/3rd as productive as offense or defense.
BUT when you lose that 33% in every game you play it puts the O and D behind the curve, we simply have to win that battle more often in 2011 in order to see an improvement.
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