Sports Buzz: A look at where Dolphins stand offensively and potential solutions

Nope

 

I seriously don't get everyone's infatuation with Hartline, he is flat out terrible.

Maybe its because we've seen him play opposite Legedoodoo so he looks great in comparison, but Hartline sucks across the board. He is the single biggest detriment to our WR corps. He cannot stay on his feet. He cannot get open anymore. He cannot score. He's not great a catching. He's not great at first downs. He is horrible in YAC.

All he was, was training wheels for Tannehill and just like training wheels, he is a hinderance now that Tannehill can ride a bike.

 

I don't think anyone is defending Hartline's performance this year, or wants him next year in Bill Lazor's offense.

The idea that his production somehow was illusionary or invalid somehow is pretty much totally bankrupt. He was consistent, productive, and the idea that he was "training wheels" that were appropriately discarded is nonsense when that void hasn't at all been filled.

 

I don't think you understand what training wheels are then. They don't get replaced, they are simply no longer needed, so there's no void to be filled. Hell, the #2 receiver spot was a void this year with Hartline here.

 

By all means, feel free to cite this infatuation?

Beyond that, he's really only played poorly this season.

 

This year he was worse than "played poorly". I find it hard to believe a stat guy like yourself, doesn't see how poor Hartline's play has been prior to this year (where it fell off a cliff).

 

He is still better than Brandon Gibson.

 

In what way?

 

In the way that Brandon Gibson is useless on the outside, and Brian Hartline isn't.

Brian Hartline is a much better receiver than Brandon Gibson.

 

He's not useless on the outside. He only became a slot receiver when he got here. The year before he came here his 1st down & Td per catch ratio was thru the roof.

The only thing I've seen Hartline do that is better than Gibson is sideline catches.

 

I would say that Gibson is better at catching with contact and more valuable in the redzone. And IIRC Gibson is also cheaper next year. Hartline is a solid receiver who helped Tannehill with his precise routes and more reliable hands (relative to Gibson), but is now not worth the price tag. I could see an argument for replacing both or maybe keeping the cheaper one (if Hartline restructures) for another season for continuity purposes, but we should be looking to upgrade and relegating either to a #4 at best.

 

Most of the statistics prior to this season indicated Hartline played well above his level of compensation. He was slightly above average statistically coming into this year.

 

Prove it.

 

Hartline is much smarter, and prior to this season was a much better route-runner.

Either way, every WR sans Landry is overpaid, and should be jettisoned. I'm not sure the team can realistically have that much turnover on the unit, but at the least, I think you see two of them gone. Considering Hartline got more snaps this Gibson this year, my guess is that the coaching staff would be inclined to go with Hartline over Gibson.

 

He has never been as successful as Hartline as an outside receiver. He has never been a decent outside receiver.

The year before he got there he was a third option.

The only thing I have seen Hartline do better than Gibson is be a better wide receiver.

 

2013: Hartline's YPT was 32nd in the NFL. His EPA was 28th.
2012: Hartline's YPT was 25th in the NFL. His EPA was also 25th.

That is very good level of efficiency for a guy that was on a 4th round rookie contract.

 

What burns me is we gave Hartline that much money (I protested it at the time as too much) to see Golden Tate get insulted by Seattle and sign with Detroit for how much more a year later? Could we have made a move for him if we didn't sign Hartline to that contract? Now, I have no info he would have chose us but still.

 

Hartline is not on his rookie contract. Also you said:

. You didn't prove that. At best you proved he played right at his level of compensation.

Also "yards per target" is not the only important WR stat.

 

I agree we overpaid Hartline.

 

Golden Tate is too colorful for Philbo IMO. Not a realistic proposition.

 

Hartline stopped being a third option by default.

 

And yet he was an option ahead of Gibson.

 

He isn't now, thats correct.

Being amongst the top 32 WRs at under $2MM is exceeding his compensation. There are 50+ WRs making over $2MM/yr.

 

Not really.

He was placed in the slot, because Hartline can't be. Until he got hurt last year, he was crushing it.

 

He wasn't in 2013 either.

He was among the top 32 in one stat.

 

Still outperformed his compensation.

I cited two stats - YPT and EPA.

Either way, lets not lose focus of what this debate is about. You claimed there is an infatuation with Brian Hartline. Can you cite this infatuation? I'd say there is maybe < 5% of this forum that even thinks he should be retained.

 

That's not what this argument is about. This argument is about Gibson vs Hartline.

The part you're hung about is the as important as you saying he far exceeded his compensation (then just exceeded).

 

No he wasn't crushing it. He had one really good game, but the rest he was decent at best. He was easily replaced by Mathews who was just as efficient in the slot.

 

Hartline in his "big year" had one really good game.

And the passing offense got worse when Gibson went out that year.

 

Gibson still hasn't even had one big game.

 

I don't understand why you think it's an appropriate comparison.

The idea that Brian Hartline's production was somehow didn't count or was illusionary doesn't make any sense at all. The team didn't suddenly move upwards in any meaningful sense because Hartline was utilized more poorly.

 

Huh?

I said Hartline was Tannehill's training wheels.

 

I think Brian Hartline was always a specialist who was only going to outperform in very specific circumstances. The fact he's no longer outperforming shows that his lack of versatility isn't going to make him a consistent pro. That's a good reason not to pay him $6-7 million a year, IMO.

They need something different in this system, clearly...so I think he should move on.

 

I'd take Hartline over Gibson all day long. However, I'd only keep Hartline if he would restructure. I don't know that you can justify paying Hartline $6-7M, but he's certainly the more valuable WR if you ask me.

The production issues involve the spots in the offense so I'm not going to argue Hartline's yards over Gibson TDs or vice versa. Landry once again outmatched Hartline in terms of TDs. That's a predictable occurrence given how we ran the offense. It's not hard to find guys who can play in the slot. To me, it's harder to find a guy who can make the catches and run the routes that Hartline does. I don't trust Gibson's hands nor his ability to hang onto the ball nearly as much as I do with Hartline.

The question of keeping Hartline really involves whether or not we retain Wallace. I don't think we'll have both Hartline and Wallace next year. They could be mutually exclusive entities at this point. We'll just have to see how the team moves forward.

 

I will take Gibson over Hartline all day long because Gibson costs about half of what Hartline costs.

And I disliked the Gibson signing when he came over from the Rams. I'm just saying, Hartline is not a guy that should have the contract he has. They overpaid him because they were afraid of the unknown and wanted to keep continuity for Tannehill. I understood it, even if I ultimately didn't agree with it. But that was Mike Sherman's system. The logic doesn't work anymore. Time to move on.

 

If we keep Wallace then we let go of Hartline 100%. That's easy when Hartline would cost us $6-7M in 2015. He's not worth that.

However, if we lose Wallace we have to make an attempt to restructure Hartline. Hartline is the more desirable WR over Gibson from a talent, production and position standpoint. Gibson doesn't have a large role in the offense now that Landry is here.

If we lose Wallace and Hartline doesn't agree to restructure, we're in a tough situation. That's where things would get tough.

I'm not sure we can afford to lose Wallace and Hartline both while Gibson and Landry battle for time in the slot. We're simply not that deep at the WR position to afford losing both guys during the same year. I don't see how that would go over well.

 

Miami Dolphins: Afraid of the Unkown. That's the new team motto.

 

I would rather keep neither. Hartline doesn't fit this offense and Gibson is not worth his cost. If Gibson could be signed for veteran's minimum, then sure, however he is not that good of a receiver. I honestly believe we should have kept Damien Williams over Gibson

 

You won't get MUCH of an argument from me, but I will say this.

It would be a shame in one major respect. In my opinion when a guy tears his ACL, that first year back is a tough pill for the team to swallow knowing that he really won't be very effective. And if he's under a contract he signed before he tore the ACL then you can almost just ink in that he won't play up to that contract worth for that year. However, the second year after the ACL tear tends to be the year the guy bounces back fully, and in some cases has a career year.

People have gone cuckoo for cocoa puffs over Jarvis Landry's performance in 2014. Well prior to injury, Brandon Gibson was on pace to far outperform Landry in almost exactly the same role in 2013. He could, probably should, get back to that level in 2015. If you're going to cut him before he can do that, I don't know why we bothered keeping him around (and paying him) in 2014. It's sort of like when Philbin tells Bill Lazor to call aggressive plays on 1st and 2nd down and then gets queasy on 3rd down. Be all the way in or all the way out, because half-in doesn't help anyone.

Same is really going to apply with Branden Albert. If there was some kind of magical escape clause that allows the Dolphins to get out of Albert's contract right now, they should probably either take that right now, or stay committed to playing him through 2016. He's going to go out next year in that first year post-ACL and probably struggle. And then the Dolphins will be like, we're getting rid of him because he struggled (predictably). And that'll be a shame.

 

Needs to get on dat dere HGH. If we sign Peterson, maybe he can give him his connect.