St Louis Rams vs Miami Dolphins Game Thread...

I don't agree- He's learning a new sub-position of sorts and he's played well the last two games. If he can play a 6-technique/strong-side type position, it's a pretty big deal I think. They could probably get better play more quickly if he just lined up as a wide rusher, but if he can develop like this it's a good thing.

 

I don't prefer it, but I think it's valuable. It's a base defense role, and right it's a weird situation where Cameron Wake sort of plays the role so Vernon can be a wide player. If Jordan can play it well and still do the other stuff he was drafted for, it's a huge winner.

 

I think I understand your point about maybe their intent is to make him learn a new position while knowing what he can already do, then once learned his game is more diverse..however pate, making him gain the weight tells me differently, that weight severly affects what made you and me love him in college, I remember a point you brought up way predraft when we were analyzing him as a prospect, it was a play where dion was standing up, faked the blitz then literally exploded back into the slot to cover the receiver, you were excited about that movement and diversity, now he's more one dimensional..I don't think he played well the last two weeks considering his talent when he was at 245. I think he's depressed or something or severly dissapoinent in himself, he doesn't look like the same player.

 

I finally got to see the game this morning and my take from the game is that I would rather see McCain rushing the passer from the LB spot than Jordan from the DE spot.

It would not surprise me in the least that if McCain can keep his head on straight and he continues to improve, he will end up having a much more productive career than Jordan.

I continue to be unimpressed by Jordan and I just don't ever see him being anything but a mediocre player in the NFL. McCain on the other hand looks like he can develop into an impact outside LB if this coaching staff will just give him a chance. In fact I'd take him as the starter over Wheeler or Ellerbe at this time. I know he would go through some rookie learning curves, but he has far more upside as a LB than either Wheeler or Ellerbe.

 

I think he can be a really good OLB, one of the best, but at this point it's a long shot, meaning something that needs to be planned outside of this season.

 

We are remembering that the last two weeks any positive reps he got were against backups..and the positive ones he did get were how impactful? Point is, if some think he's played well the last two weeks then imo you have some low expectations of what this players is capable of at his natural weight.

Jordan spent a lot of time on the ground..

It doesn't make any sense to do what their doing, to me at least, I hope Pate is right, but the movement and explosiveness is not there and theres only one common variable that would dictate that happening, and that is quick weight gain..

His only move all preseason is simply trying to leverage his new found supposed strength directly into the chest of the lineman blocking him, that has been the extent if his repertoire..

There are so many contradictions with this player, I've heard him say, " I really don't need to work on a bunch of moves because of my speed"... Well, they or you chose to lose that speed when you decided to gain 20 lbs..

I would do anything to know what is going on in this dudes head, and what the coaches are going to do after review, and what he's going to do for a month while out ..will he be intrinsically motivated to get quicker faster, stronger, or will he continue to wallow.

 

If they would let him do what they are having Chris McCain do right now then Jordan would be starting. people see how much McCain has flashed and a lot of its because of his athleticism and length...Jordan (at least last year) is a far more gifted athlete and far better in coverage.

 

agreed..

If folks can't see a significant degree of lethargy then I'm not sure what their looking at.

I'm starting to think there is a lot we don't know.

 

While I am not high on Jordan as a DE, I have also been stating since last year that he should be playing outside LB. I think this is more his natural position and I think he could be very effective at an outside LB position.

The reason I don't see him being anything but a mediocre player in the NFL is because Coyle seems determined to keep him as a DE in a 4-3 defense. This is also why I think they should trade Jordan and get what they can for him.

If they are determined to play him at DE, he just isn't going to be effective in this type defense. Perhaps it still isn't too late to see if the Eagles have any interest in trading for him. If Jordan comes back after his suspension and has a mediocre season at DE, his trade value will only decrease.

 

Not surprising at all, McCain killed it in PFF rating for the STL game. Here's some results (top 10/bottom 5 for O/D, top 3 ST):

Offense Top 10
Nate Garner 1.9
Matt Hazel 1.4
Damien Williams 1.4
Tony Hills .7
Kyle Miller .6
Jason Fox .3
Dion Sims 0
Marcus Thigpen -.1
Evan Wilson -.2
Jarvis Landry, Matt Moore -.3

Offense Bottom 5
David Arkin -8.1
Seth Lobato -7.6
Sam Brenner -4.1
Evan Finkenberg -2.9
Kevin Cone -1.6

Defense Top 10
Chris McCain 7.5
D'Aundre Reed 3.6
Anthony Johnson 2.6
Kamal Johnson 2.2
Dion Jordan 1.7
Don Jones 1.0
Reshad Jones .9
Jordan Kovacs .8
Kevin Fogg .8
Jason Trusnik .7

Defense Bottom 5
Michael Thomas -1.4
Walt Aikens -1.2
Andrew Wilson -.7
Isaako Aaitui -.7
Tevin Mims -.5

Special Teams Top 3
Brandon Fields 3.5
Jonathan Freeny, Jordan Kovacs, Tevin Mims, Andrew Wilson .5

 

Jordan could have stayed the same weight as last year but that doesn't guarantee he would learn to be a football player... the guy is an athlete first, football player a distant second... I still pray he doesn't bust, I hope he's the next Jason Taylor but his progress is very underwhelming...

 

My super ultra dark house dude tony hills with another solid performance, lol when is anyone gonna share some love with me about him, not one mention of the guys name anywhere and I mean anywhere..I saw him in the first, 2nd and 3rd game play with sound position specific movement and strength, also like the way he's built for a lineman, someone said he liked him coming out of college but he's always hurt..

 

Lol..Dion in 6th place amongst the 2nd and 3rd stringers makes me laugh.

 

I've said this like 8 different times this offseason...no one listens. IMO, having him bulk up allows him to play better against to the run to the point where I think he'll eventually beat out OV (whether the staff does make that move...who knows?). But having him be that effective from a base end fromation AND being able to do what we saw him do last year will eventually make him more valuable as a starter than OV. I also think part of it, and this where I think a lot of people on the board get confused, is that the coaches want him to develop as a DE, so he's going to get more reps there; they know what else he can, why tip their hands to teams in preseason? Yet, fans and media (Omar) seemingly only focus on where he's playing in preseason and act like he's anchored there, when that's just not the case. Joe Philbin damn near said virtually that the day before training camp started.

That said, there are various issues - 3 specifically brought up in Club, so I won't bring them up here - that make me question Dion Jordan personally, not in as much as what the staff does with him. I think his ability...or inability to do certain things, chiefly rushing the passer, rests more with him than anything else, regardless of the weight gain.

 

No it doesn't, and it could be a total failure on misevaluating a player on my part, but I swear the dude could be a great, if, the weight was right, and the position was ultra versatile...maybe we'll never find out now, for me personally, who obviously loved the player coming out, they went philosophically (physically, schematically) totally against everything I know I believed in him about and what he could be on a field..

I don't think I've disagreed more with a direction on such a hi level athlete and high status draft pick...Sherman did a good job cutting Tannehills skillset in half, but this is on another level, and here's the thing, he played in so many areas last year and looked to be progressing, why in the hell would you think he could do what he was doing 20lbs heavier, they put on the brakes and said we need to make him this, "he need strength to hold Point of attack." Yaaaaa what the frig ever man..

Dude didn't need to gain anything but 3 to 5 lbs of lean muscle, that's it,nothing more..

 

I remembering studying him in college and there was this play, he was playing on the boundary at corner, and he was in a perfect crouch, set up exactly like a corner would look, the play unfolded, the safety came over and Dion sprinted toward the Qb on a coner blitz, timed his leap perfectly and knocked the ball down...he started on the boundary, must of ran 30 yards..I remember watching him in the slot cover guys half his size with perfect technique and balance, I remember what great leverage he would play the run with and just rip arms off his body to make tackles..

Not anymore, just plow ahead at 265 lbs..every freakin down..it's a joke and everyone in the media is afraid to call them out, and their to stubborn or stupid to admit their mistake, or that they even made one.

 

Just spit ballin' here but, is it possible Jordan hasn't picked up the game well enough yet?

Athletic ability aside, if he's poor at diagnosing the play (not saying he is) then that could cause more problems than his athletics could mask, no?

 

I think, based on what we've heard in Club, that this is certainly a factor. How big a factor it is, I'm not sure.

 

I dunno, did it seem like McCain had more of the freedom we want Jordan to have?

 

I didn't watch the St. Louis game, but from what I've seen of McCain this preseason I liken him to a player Kevin Coyle was around in Cincinnati - Manny Lawson. Similar builds as both were around 6'5" 240-250lbs; Lawson was a freak athlete coming out of N.C. State. I don't know what McCain's numbers are, but he seems to move around quite well, and has been used as an on the LOS "SAM LB", much like Lawson was during his tenure in Cincinnati.

I certainly think once Jordan returns from suspension we'll see him in those roles in certain packages*. Joe Philbin pretty much said it without saying it in that interview the day before camp started. I think his exact quote was, "We'll do what we have to do to get off the field on 3rd downs." I think that pretty much spells out moving Dion Jordan around wherever the matchups dictate - i.e. covering a TE man-to-man, dropping in zone, running stunts/blitzing as a stand-up LB or just straight coming off the edge in both 2 and 3 point stances.

I think the coaching staff wants him on the field more. Well, you're certainly not going to take Cameron Wake off the field unless he needs a breather, so the best way to get him on the scheme, short of trying to make him into Von Miller (I don't think he's that type of guy, nor do I think he can process enough football info - keys, reads, fits, etc. to function as an every-down OLB) is to make him into a 3-down player. That, *to me* means Jordan having to beat out Olivier Vernon. I think that means getting him better against the run (which is where I think the bulking-up comes into play. Again, Coyle had a similar player on his defense in Cincinnati with Michael Johnson, who was 6'7" 270lbs...damn near the same as Jordan is now, coincidence?). I think that also means having him develop as a rusher from an end spot, since that's where he'd fit in the base formation and that's why we've seen him get a ton of reps there this preseason. I think the staff knows what he can do when they move him around, and going back to that, they've pretty much given him specific tasks when they've done that and not so much reading keys. They've simplified that stuff for him as he knows he's playing an exact function in those situations and not reading a player, a formation, a key, etc. The only times I think they've let him do that are on 3rd and long situations (Carolina game last year) where he can just sit in the middle of the field and "athlete" himself into a play if it comes into his area.

So, going back to the DE spot, the more they can get him stopping the run, and the better pass-rusher they can make him as a DE (both 2 and 3 point stances) the better his odds of beating out OV become. At that point, Jordan becomes a 3-down player and Vernon is a guy who is still probably going to play 55-60% or more of the snaps as a nickel and sub-package guy. Vernon was at his best last year when in sub-packages rushing over guards, stunting, and even blitzing (see the Eric Frenz Bleacher Report article from early December last year). His 11.5 sack number is misleading as a bunch of them came over the course of like 3 games - it wasn't consistent throughout the season. And, he's not as good a run defender as most think. I'd even go as far to say that Dion Jordan is probably equal right now, perhaps slightly better in run defense than OV, based on preseason film. He's just got to put all the parts together to be a 3-down guy. Obviously a 4 game suspension throws a big, fat wrench into that.

As to why he's not a Von Miller-type OLB, I think that's more a mental/processing/football IQ issue than it is an athleticism issue. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Chris McCain end up a starter in Miami's defense...or a similar defense (Cincinnati, Minnesota) if for some reason he's cut (he damn well shouldn't be)...over Philip Wheeler at some point this year. I mean, with Jordan, he's got all the speed, agility, and athleticism in the world. It doesn't help him if all that speed, agility, and athleticism goes in the opposite direction of the play if he bites wrong on a play-action fake or is false-keyed in the wrong direction.

That's my $.02 on Dion Jordan.

* - http://www.thechipwagon.com/eagles/...ns-2013-season-part-2-outside-linebacker.html I'd note that all of these examples come versus obvious passing formations.

Also, not to slight Olivier Vernon, he's a fine player who brings a lot of versatility to the table. I just think he's better served for Kevin Coyle's defense when he's not playing as an open side end (when Miami's in Under formations), or playing 5/6 techniques over a left tackle (in Over formations, and he's almost always the RDE given Wake's propensity to play from the defense's left). As it relates to the open side, I don't think he's a good enough pure pass-rusher to make that scheme work, and it keeps Cameron Wake in a natural alignment to face double-teams and/or chip blocks. Yet, Dion Jordan is also not good enough, yet, as a pure-pass rusher to unseat OV from that role. When OV's on the closed side (Over formations) he's a little better, but still struggles to defend the run from that spot, though it does allow Cam Wake more freedom based on the formation alignment (see Anthony Castonzo manhandling OV in Week 2 last year ALL DAY LONG). The problem in that game was that Gosder Cherilus did about as good a job as any RT has done against Wake as I've seen, though I think that was more anomaly than anything else though as it relates to Wake.

 

I believe and have said this from the get that if you get him in front of the play and he can see it all happen you have a player that can go nsew with great range... Remember that tackle last year against the bengals, he was at the mike about 2 yards back from where the mike usually will line up, dalton tried a draw, dion read it beautifully, exploded forward, then went lateral and made a textbook open field tackle, it was my favorite play by him all year. He was able to see it happen in from of him, react, run chase and tackle..the thing that could make him special is that he can run and chase in all directions with great length, height, and range, unlike the league has seen..getting him to stand up so he can see everything is the first step, you can do that at linebacker, he needs to run and chase so you tell me what position that's best for?
Must take into account size and his range when you talk linebacker.... Now we all know what he lacked in college and that was putting his hand in the dirt and coming up with different moves to get to the qb, yet, what do we do here this year, go against all that college film, bulk him up and stick his face and hand in the dirt.. Sh&& ain't right..now I've been saying this when I first found out what their intentions were, has there been any evidence this far to prove to me I'm wrong when it comes to how he should be used?... I think he's looked awful at what their having him do,against scrubs even.. I'm just heated cause I think I'm right, I think the coaches and trainers have made a mistake with the players body, and lastly I'll say this , if that weight was all muscle from steroids he would be moving much better, I didn't believe it was and because of our sources I feel strongly about that, I think he worked out and ate whatever he could get, I think it's bad weight that just looks good on this kid because when his physique gains weight it will distribute symmetricly, doesn't the way he move look like he's sluggish?

 

Sorry writing from iPhone.. No paragraphs

 

Yes..And that's exactly what 24 was pointing out..hey we all have been wrong on Evals, but I also know that these professionals are not immune to being wrong, gems and coaches get fired all the time..I cant blame hickey for this, he came in late I have to blame the coaches and trainers... And man do I hope that this experiment is part of some master plan, but the fact that they wanted him to bulk up that much to play the run tells me philosophies on the players skillset are opposite

 

I'd just say there's a heckuva lot more to playing LB in the NFL than reacting and chasing the ball...which is probably why Dion Jordan isn't playing LB in base packages.

 

I disagree with a lot Ro, to not go long winded, this is an evaluation of talent mistake, the game is to get your best athletes on the field at once, with Dions skillset and normal size I don't have to take Vern off the field, let me ask you this, what are you afraid of that dion can't do at outside linebacker if he was at 245 with his old speed?

 

I don't see McCain as another Lawson. I think McCain is more of an all around LB. He seems more like a faster, quicker Bryan Cox to me. I also think McCain is best suited for the Will, because he is at his best in back side pursuit and in chase mode. Lawson was a 4-3 end in college and seems better suited to me going forward than in reverse.

 

Right, but think about it for a second......

If Jordan is having a hard time with the mental aspects, especially to the point where the coaches feel like he's a detriment, wouldn't it make more sense to have him play a mentally easier role (like DE) till he gets the swing of things? Even if that means he has to bulk up some to be better at that easier role?

 

As I outlined in my post, I don't think Dion Jordan has the football IQ to read proper keys, especially when multiple keys are in play based on formation/situation, make proper run fits, wrong-arm with leverage into gaps to stop the run. I think he'd have trouble disengaging from blocks in a phone booth. I don't think his athleticism is transcendent to the point where it mitigate those things. It might work from time-to-time, but I don't think he's going to be Von Miller any time soon. In short, as I said, when Miami does move him around, it appears he almost always has a predetermined, specific function relative to where he's lined up. The only times I've notice where he's been allowed to drop deep and react to what he says are in long, passing down situations such as the play against Cincinnati or the plays against Carolina.

You can put as many athletes on the field as you want, but if they don't know what they're supposed to do and when they're supposed to do it, in the NFL I don't think athleticism is a counter to that. Maybe a special player like Bo Jackson or Deion Sanders...Dion Jordan isn't in the class as an athlete. He's certainly one relative to his size, but...

I was pretty clear with why I'd want Dion starting over OV in the base packages at DE, but at the end of the day, how many snaps are you NOT having both on the field per game - 15 or 20 max? Less if your offense gets out to a lead...which unfortunately hasn't been the case in Miami. I'd risk that as opposed to just throwing Dion Jordan out there for 50-60 plays a game at LB with no clear-cut idea of what he's doing.

As much as I feel like I'm crazy saying it, but I'm actually going to side with Miami's coaching staff relative to what they do schematically with Dion Jordan. The weight gain, while I think well-intended, may not have been done correctly as you've talked about. I also think there are personal issues that Dion Jordan has that limit what he's done so far, and those have been highlighted in Club and I don't want to discuss those in the mains based on where that info comes from.

 

Which is the exact opposite of what he did well in the NFL. Lawson was not a good pass-rusher; he was good at playing on the LOS and covering TEs and dropping in zones and pursuing down the line. McCain, based on what we've seen in preseason, seems pretty good at those things as well, and while he's not as athletic as Lawson, he seems to be better as a pass-rusher and blitzer.

 

Ro there's only one reason to watch that ram game, and believe it or not, it's worth it, just because of that kid, even if it was against scrubs, he was fun to watch

 

Yup, there's covering the flat, and dropping in coverage, and running sideline to sideline, and pass rushing, I don't understand your point, Dion at 245 can do all that.

 

not buying it..he played relatively well last year, I saw recognition last year, I also saw weak pass rush attempts, the one weakness he does have requires no mental challenge, it's go sack the Qb...I don't think they made him gain weight and play at one position because he doesn't have the mentals for the game, I just think they fu@&ed up on the evaluation of what he could be doing..

Chip Kelly was willing to drop a first and Brandon Graham. That is no joke..

 

Dion Jordan is a freestyler..I will not disagree with some of the technical aspects of the game that he may struggle with, understand and understood, that's why it's imperative to move this player around, you must let him see what's happening and let him play, don't make the game to complicated, he can cover, he can run, he can cover a lot of ground, he can tackle, he can play with leverage, and he can rush, I'll give you shedding blocks in a phone booth, but I'm not sure,
, that's when he was light lean and quick, I also disagree about this players athleticism, for that size, his movement was special...just let him run and play ball, what's wrong with that, is that too much to ask for in this game, your telling me you can't because he might miss an assignment?... Sometimes you gotta take the hit.....I guess Ellerbe or wheeler do their job with such acumen and precision, and such great play on the inside that we shouldn't look to Dion to play..

I'll compromise with ya, drop the weight play him at linebacker, and lets take our chances, lets at least find out if the 3rd overall pick can play the style he was born to play.not something else in another persons body..

 

funny, the first thing that jumped in to my mind when I watched McCain was Darryl Talley the way he wreaks havoc along the O-line or in the QB's face. constantly being disruptive.

 

Then why didn't he do it more last year at that weight? Why did the coaching staff have him bulk up to play DE? As much as I disagree with things they do, I think they've got this one right. As I've said, I think there's more to Dion's struggles that have more to do with him personally than the scheme, weight gain, or the coaches choosing to play him at one position and not another.

And, you're still not acknowledging that I think Dion Jordan will get to move around as he did last year, we've just not seen it because it's preseason..

 

Putting him at LB would do exactly what you just said not to; it'd make the game too complicated for him. I think that's why they're trying to develop him as a DE, and then use his athleticism to perform specific, schematic and matchup functions when they do move him around in sub-packages.

As I said, his athleticism is special for his size, but it's certainly not of a transcendent level like a Bo Jackson, Randy Moss, or Deion Sanders. Even Jadeveon Clowney's combine numbers beat Dion Jordan's across the board other than the sort shuttle & 3-cone drills, and FWIW, Manny Lawson, a player that Dion's been likened to on this board, roasted Jordan in the 40 (4.43 vs. 4.60). I think at some point we have to acknowledge that at least some (I'd say a good portion) of the lack of development we've seen in Dion Jordan is directly attributable to Dion Jordan himself just not "getting it" and doing things he shouldn't be doing off the field.

In short, he'd be better off in a 3-4 as a WOLB. Miami doesn't run that, but I think they're grooming him to play like a "Leo" or whatever name you want to call the position that Jason Taylor played in Nick Saban's defense in 2005-06 (2006 DPOY). That's almost synonymous with an Aldon Smith type position in today's NFL, so I get why the staff is doing that, if that's what they're doing (I'd bet it is). Dion still has to develop the pass-rushing part of the game to become more effective, which is why I think he's been pretty much exclusively at end during this preseason, especially since he's missing 4 games because he screwed up off the field. I think they know what he can do and how they plan to use him when he's in those sub-packages, so why showcase it and tip your hand?

Looking back at some of the pre-draft stuff on Dion Jordan you see damn near everyone including Nolan Nawrocki (PFW at the time), Bucky Brooks, Daniel Jeremiah, Mike Mayock (see Mayock's quote literally when Miami drafted him), etc. all say he'll require patience to develop. Patience and 3rd overall pick don't go well together from a PR standpoint, or from the standpoint of a GM who was on the hot seat and a coach who now is on the hot seat, so I get the frustration. But you've got to let Dion develop, and I think that part is more on him than anyone else, and with what we've heard about him in Club, that's very worrisome.

 

If they plan on moving him around at 275 then call me crazy, I just don't get that philosophy at all..

I've stated why I think they misjudged the player, I guess they thought added weight and strength was a necessity to his game, I disagree, I Think a natural progression considering the injured shoulder was the way to go, the shoulder hindered him imo, and fooled them..

 

What I'm saying Ro, is that it's fine if there trying to make him better rushing the passer and not show their hand, but if they plan on grooming him as a Leo or jack, then 275 is not the way to get the best out of this player doing those things..and I believe we have seen enough evidence of lethargy all preseason long to abort the mission.

 

Okay, that's fair. I know he weighed into camp at 275, so perhaps he will return from suspension lighter. That still doesn't account for the personal things that were brought up about him though.