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Tannehill in Shotgun Formation

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MonstBlitz, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    In my admittedly untrained eye Tannehill seems very comfortable in the Shotgun formation. I remember one play specifically where he was lined up under center, seemed to detect a blitz, very casually backed up into shotgun and I think he completed the pass (but I don't remember for sure). Anyone else remember that play?

    Why do I mention this? Because as the season happens and we watch our young QB develop I'm asking myself, "How is Tannehill different from Chad Henne?" Because I remember a lot of us after 2009 thought Chad Henne was the guy and ultimately he was not successful here. So what types of things make Tannehill different?

    Maybe the gurus can expand on this, but I think this is a big one. I seem to remember threads discussing Chad's effectiveness or lack thereof in Shotgun formation. His inability to audible into Shotgun, or pick his head up to read the defense after taking the shotgun snap. Again, just my untrained eye, but it seems the best QBs in the league all throw very well out of shotgun. I'm not sure a QB who struggles in the formation can have success in today's NFL.

    Is Tannehill as good in shotgun as I think he is?

    Was Chad Henne as bad in it as I seem to remember?
     
  2. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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  3. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    I did read that about 150 of his 300 snaps have come out of the shotgun, so they are balancing that well.
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    For whatever baffling reason Chad Henne told the coaches he didn't like shotgun, and for whatever even more baffling reason they decided to take his word for it at complete face value and avoided shotgun plays for him for most of his stay in Miami. But in the end, he played a fair amount of shotgun toward the end of the 2010 season and during the parts of the 2011 season that he actually played, and he looked better than he had previously.

    Ryan Tannehill is like the exact opposite. I'm sure that Ryan Tannehill LOVES the shotgun. Can't get enough of it. But it's also not necessarily good for him. He's 27 of 41 for 458 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT (with a rushing touchdown) when not working out of the shotgun. That's a 101.5 passer rating.

    I think it's when he's working from the SHOTGUN that a defense gets a bead on his passing lanes and tendencies to where they can bat down passes and limit gains. But when Mike Sherman actually concedes to changing some of his timing and launch points by working under center, that's when Ryan Tannehill has the most success.
     
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  5. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    He worked almost exclusively under center last game. Only about 32% vs. 45% against the Jets (according to Volin)

    The biggest difference I see is his ability to take shots down the field. Henne seemed overly cautious, whereas Tannehill seems to trust his abilities. The other thing is the anticipation of throws. That was Henne's biggest knock IMO. He didn't go through his progressions well at all.
     
  6. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Interesting. So even though he looks and probably is comfortable in the formation, the results aren't the greatest. Thanks for that link, Stringer. Lots of good stuff there. Now I know where everyone is getting that stuff from when they talk about the "splits".
     
  7. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    When Chad Henne passed the ball downfield at an average rate for an NFL QB, his QB rating plummeted. Through six games in the 2010 season, he had attempted only eight passes of 21 yards or more in the air (far below the league average at the time), and his QB rating at the time was respectable. When they opened up the offense and he started going downfield more, his QB rating fell significantly. He's simply not a QB who can run a full NFL offense at an adequate level IMO, which is why he's now a backup.
     
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  8. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Shotgun's always an interesting topic because most were opposed to it and by most, I mean coaches and quarterbacks. I think some quarterbacks are sometimes opposed to it because they have issues with seeing the field from a depth standpoint from there and are used to the rhythm passing from under center. The steps in your dropback are generally decreased in shotgun because of your initial depth, so it skews your rhythm. There are quarterbacks who enjoy the comfort that shotgun brings, however, as they usually have quality field vision from there because they can see the field in its entirety from there. Sometimes those quarterbacks are the ones who can be makeshift passers (think of a makeshift shooter; one that has to set his feet and be squared to the basket every time and one that doesn't a la Reggie Miller).

    From the coaches view, they are generally risk averse because they are coaching for their job one play at a time (truth is, the risk aversion is the reason they end up getting fired). Catching a shotgun snap does two things: 1. it increases the chance of a mistake and 2. it forces the quarterback to take his eyes off the defense -- and that's the biggest reason why they are so opposed to it. And as ridiculous as taking your eyes off the defense half a second sounds, consider how many quarterbacks in the NFL struggle when they turn their back to the defense on play action. They struggle to re-engage with the field, to get a crystal clear picture once they look back up.

    And then there's also the discussion of how spread formations, most notably the wider splits of offensive linemen, effects this all, which is pretty obvious. However, the NFL hasn't got to that point yet, in my opine, so it's not worthy of great discussion.
     
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  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The numbers look really, really, really lopsided...but something should be kept in mind.

    I personally believe 5 of Ryan's interceptions this year were not really bad decisions per se. Three were tipped passes, one was Brian Hartline's falling during his break, and another was the pass in overtime where Daniel Thomas picked up the wrong guy and Ryan got hit as he threw the ball.

    The 1 interception he had this year that he truly earned, came against the Jets on a play where he dropped back from under center. Furthermore, there was a second interception he's damn lucky he didn't throw, the interception to Adrian Wilson that was overturned on replay because they said he just barely didn't control the ball as he went down and out of bounds. So that's 2 genuinely poor, interceptable decisions in 41 throws from under center.

    On the other hand, you look at the shotgun work and yeah 5 interceptions but all 5 of them were not necessarily poor decisions, but rather just a combination of miscues from tipped balls to a guy falling on his break to a blown protection. That's 100 throws without a really poor, costly read and decision. That is pretty remarkable for a rookie.

    So before we feel we've got a bead on all this and start calling for Ryan to throw more from under center we should keep that in mind. Overall I think the shotgun definitely helps him see the field better and make more comfortable decisions. There are plenty of throws he made out of shotgun where his skill players were not helping him, that would have dragged upward his poor completion percentage and yards per attempt out of the gun, not to mention his touchdowns. But the shotgun also I think is more predictable for the defense and I think if you were to track every single tipped pass they would all be out of the gun, or at least the overwhelming majority of them would be out of the gun.

    Getting Ryan Tannehill to make as consistently safe decisions from under center as he does the shotgun will be critical, as will be finding a better mix of shotgun and non-shotgun plays.
     
  10. Zanno

    Zanno Junior Member

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    No long snap problems with Pouncey this year
     
  11. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Just to clarify; when I'm talking about rhythm on those short drops from the gun, sometimes this requires guys to stand in the pocket and read the field instead of dropping back, step by step and reading each route with the drop. That's what sometimes is forgotten -- each step of the drop is tied into the routes, which break off usually around 12-15 yards, meaning each one ran by the receiver is about 6-8 steps. The quarterback's steps account for the WR's, but when those steps are taken away from a reduced depth (shotgun), they are forced to do more reading by standing there if their initial read isn't open.

    Three examples of players who do this but don't equally do it well. Tom Brady is one, Ryan Fitzpatrick is two and Andy Dalton is three. All three take reduced drops, leaving them to stand in the pocket like a statue and read the field. Brady is the best at this because he sees the field, knows the defense inside and out, knows his receivers, has a rhythm with them and knows when to get the ball out. He can also avoid mistakes. The same can't be said for Ryan Fitzpatrick, who takes more reduced drops than Brady or Dalton but has the most mistakes because he doesn't do those things as well as Brady. Dalton is somewhere in the middle between those guys, as he also takes some of those reduced drops, and sees the field better than Fitzpatrick but not as well as Brady. So what that ends up doing is sometimes leaving him in the pocket like he's frozen in time and taking sacks.
     
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  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is true. When he became a starter, he did enough to give me hope. Unfortunately he didn't improve much from the beginning of his career to when he left the Dolphins.
     
  13. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    You're all partially wrong.

    The reason for the difference is defenses respect the threat of a Reggie Bush run more.

    QB in shotgun means less threat of a handoff to Bush, and definitely no lead blocking FB.

    They play the pass.

    Bush makes things lopsided.
     
  14. arsenal

    arsenal Sunglasses and advil

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    ehh i dont see a trend here, Tannehill has had 6 picks on the season... 4 of which were fluky...
    2 tipped balls, 1 WR slipped and fell, 1 hit while throwing (plus arguably the Naanee pick where he let the CB right through him was shotgun)

    the fact that the flukes happened out of the shotgun doesn't make it a trend... but thats just my opinion
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think it's the opposite. I don't think it's a coincidence that Ryan Tannehill's biggest positive plays or his biggest mistakes of the season came from under center. I think it's more of a give-and-take from under center with respect to his decision-making, whereas from the shotgun I think his decision-making is generally much better but the defense's decision-making is also better.

    I go back to something Jon Gruden told Brock Osweiler during their QB Camp. He was making a big deal about Osweiler's 6'8" height, doing the Gruden thing saying all kinds of nonsense, "Gyah, six feet eight inches are you kiddin me? Think you can see the defense over the line at six feet eight inches? Goll-ly". But then he slipped in this nugget of insight and truth. He said you might be able to see the defense better over the line but they can also see you better and that means you have to be more disciplined with your eyes than the average guy.

    Same thing probably applies in the gun. If you've got a better view of the whole field from the gun then the whole field has a better view of you, too. And just as in anything, it's easier to focus and get a bead on something that isn't moving as much or as quickly, and your drop from the shotgun doesn't see you moving as much or as quickly as you would from under center. Like I said I wouldn't be surprised if 90-95% of his tipped passes at TAMU and here in Miami have been from the gun.

    Yet thus far, Tannehill's been less likely to misread the defense and make a truly costly decision and throw from the gun than he is from under center. With the exception of tipped passes, he's getting more advantage of the better view from shotgun than the defense...at least as it relates to truly costly decisions.

    Even so it's clear defenses are on their heels when he's under center and they're getting less of a view of what he's doing, especially with the run threat maintained. Even if you take away that 80 yard TD to Hartline you're talking 65% completion and 9.5 YPA. And there's really no reason to take away that Hartline play because the botched coverage was probably a function of the drop and the play-action. You can't guarantee they'd have botched it the same way if that were a shotgun play.
     
  16. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    Good point by Gruden... never thought of that issue with taller QBs and the shotgun.
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Taller QBs was his.

    Shotgun was mine.
     
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  18. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    Duly noted. Insightful point with the shotgun formation, CK!

    Mr. Gruden, insightful point regarding Osweiler.
     

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