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Tannehill vs. Pressure - A Reversal? What's up?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    This will have to be short because I don't have the time for a long post right now, but I've been noticing articles popping up talking about RT17 being bad against pressure. This is striking to me because I remember in his first year, and maybe second, he was almost better against pressure than without. So I'm not sure a "Ryan can't handle pressure" story is valid in and of itself. I want to know what changed.

    Exhibit A - PFF (2014)
    Exhibit B - Phinsider (2012)
    Exhibit C - Draft Analysis as Excellent Under Pressure (In this case Draft Sharks)

    Just quickly, some thoughts off the cuff:

    1 - The first thought that comes to mind is I remember him moving a lot more at the start. More roll outs, more throwing on the move, using his legs. In the last three seasons it feels like he's become more stationary for whatever reason.

    2 - The OL hasn't ever been great, but it does feel like the team took a few steps back over the RT years. I still wonder about the loss of Incognito on that line. The guard position instantly got bad and has only looked like it's recovering this year - maybe.

    3 - Run-game/Tight-ends - Back at the beginning of RT17's entry we were running with Reggie Bush, then Lamar Miller, and we had Charles Clay. Were the early teams great? No. But we may well have lost better than we thought talent at key spots, and also hurt team chemistry.

    4 - Coaching and scheme changes. Bottom line - this team has had holes all over the place and not been efficient in fixing them. I wonder whether all the efforts to fix the WR's etc. and bring in star players at premium contracts wouldn't have been better spent building and reinforcing a solid OL and depth overall, giving the Dolphins, and Tannehill, and better foundation to build on, rather than a leaky dam where they're plugging one hole while other bigger ones open up. I suspect all this change, especially with the receiving core, losing TE talent, losing RB talent, and not fixing the OL until late on, hasn't done a lot to make Tannehill a 2016 QB who used to excel under pressure and at the moment is struggling.

    Side note - I've consistently said this will be a watch-and-see year, a season of growth. I here remind myself of that, and the knowledge that if we're going to see anything real from this team, it will more likely be next year than this one.
     
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  2. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

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    Tannehill is definitely playing like S this year, but it's still early. You know he's sucking just by the way he's turning the ball over, and over his first 4 years he's been very good at not doing that. I still think it's too early to draw any conclusions just yet though. I know it's year 5 and he should be progressing instead of regressing, but it is a new system which may take time to learn/master. The vast majority of Dolphins fans are too impatient and quite frankly, ignorant. If Miami gets hot right now and even finishes the year at 8-8 that will most likely take us out of a good position to draft a QB, so it's way too early to talk about replacing him when we don't even have any viable options as of yet and there's still 12 games remaining. Knowing Dolphins fans even Adam Gase we will try to run out of town if he doesn't start producing soon, regardless of guys in NFL history like Joe Gibbs who started his coaching career 0-5 and Belichick who was considered a loser in Cleveland, only to become what he is today. I know Tannehill is in year 5 (even though imo 4 were wasted with Queasy Joe) and he should be doing better, but we should probably wait until we stop playing away games against Superbowl contenders with a 38 yr old rookie head coach before casting any judgements. Especially when again, no surprise, the run game is a foreign concept to us. 29th in the league is not very good or helpful to any QB, see Cam Newton.
     
  3. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    A couple quick thoughts:

    (1)

    Tannehill’s career began with him throwing to Brian Hartline and Davone Bess. The strength of both was more in their hands and ability to make clutch conversions than anything else. We can all picture Bess and the sorts of heroic catches he would make to move the chains for Chad Henne, but it was Hartline who really found his stride with Tannehill. During those first couple years, Hartline was a real asset. I loved him and what he brought. His attitude and swagger was great.

    While we get excited by Landry’s effort and the physical stature of Parker, Hartline might go down as the WR that established the best chemistry with Tannehill. Hartline produced nearly 2,200 yards in Tannehill’s first couple years and averaged 14 YPC.

    So while we recognize that there’s more potential in Landry and Parker, Hartline was better able to reach his and showed that he was as efficient as anyone Tannehill’s worked with. This is explained by how nicely Hartline’s skill set matched Tannehill’s strengths. Hartline was fast but no so much that Tannehill struggled to hit him (i.e. Wallace). Hartline was good at finding a void in space and giving Tannehill a big, easy target. Hartline was also a very good route-runner and excelled running out-breaking routes (which happen to be Tannehill’s biggest strength). Lastly, Hartline had a knack for helping his QB on balls down the sideline.

    By no means was Hartline a dominant receiver, but he did the most he could with his abilities and he really seemed to be a great fit for Ryan Tannehill. Please remind yourself of how integral Hartline was to the offense by watching these 2013 Highlights in which he’s clearly a solid possession receiver opposite Mike Wallace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SwQuHJm7_Y

    Let’s remember what the headline was back at that time. Everybody loved Hartline’s blue-collar mentality but they hated the fact he would go down as soon as he caught the ball. He produced almost no YAC. And in 2 seasons, he scored only 6 touchdowns. He clearly had limitations but let’s be honest, in terms of his ability to help move an offense down the field, he was an awesome fit.

    As a personal aside, Hartline’s act-like-you’ve-been-there response is so refreshing after watching 2.5 years of Landry’s in-your-face BS. If Landry ever dragged his toes on the sideline a la Hartline we’d never hear the end of it. And when Hartline beat a DB with a quick route, he dropped the ball and moved on. Meanwhile Landry talks smack after even the simplest plays. In terms of attitude, they’re night and day. Just like his QB, Hartline seemed to be both tough and unshakably confident in his own skin. Landry on the other hand is an emotional diva. In terms of attitude, I miss Brian Hartline, lol. He was easy to root for.


    (2)

    In 2012 and 2013, Mike Pouncey was a young, healthy stud. If you focus on Pouncey in the Hartline highlights above, you’ll see he’s both athletic and strong at the point of attack. He and Incognito were big assets on the interior in terms of providing Tannehill a pocket in which to step up. At about the 5-minute mark, Incognito leaves due to the bullying scandal and we see a slight decrease in the quality of Guard play. Nevertheless, the message is clear. When Tannehill has a clean pocket, he looks like a legit QB.

    Over the last few years Miami has struggled to fill the Guard positions and Pouncey has begun to battle injury. After starting all 32 games in his first two seasons, he’s subsequently played 14, 12 and 14 games over the last 3 seasons and none of those were particularly great years. In 2014 he underwent hip surgery, missed camp and attempted to transition to Guard. While he was elected to the Pro Bowl on the strength of his name, most agreed he was bad that year. This season he’s dealing with hip issues again and will at most play 12 games.

    I hate to say it but Pouncey seems like Jake Long 2.0. Both were dominant talents initially but when the injury bug bit Jake Long he seemed to slow down and become just another guy. At present, I’m not sure Pouncey is even that great when he is healthy. If you can’t stay healthy you can’t practice and prepare physically. When that happens, you lose your edge. As we recall, when Pouncey missed camp in 2014 after surgery he couldn’t physically prepare and looked overwhelmed when he came back. Whether or not his upside is still as high as it once was we can’t say, but it’s doubtful.
     
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  4. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    I don't mind Landry's attitude that much because it's one thing to have fire on the field, it's another to shoot your mouth off to the media. As long as he doesn't go the way OBJ has in getting in trouble, or causing penalties I think it should be fine.

    For me, I think the bottom line is that this team is a lot of a mess. It needs rebuilding on a solid foundation, and I hope that's Gase, but sadly the time is passing on a few of these players - like Pouncey (hopefully not, it's just a slump), Wake, etc. maybe even Tannehill with the beatings he's taken. Still, that's putting a grim outlook on it. Best case scenario is that the FO settles down on the stupid high-price tag spending and starts building a balanced team with a future. And this year, I'm hoping for a few more wins, lots of team building, and maybe one big beatdown of someone! :)
     
  5. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think Landry is ever going to be so important to an offense or threatening down the field that his ego grows to that of Dez or Odell. And to be honest, his work ethic is WAAAAY above that of Dez who by all accounts is very entitled in Dallas. I could never imagine Landry missing "40 or so meetings." ;) Landry does his job and he should get credit for that but I don't like rooting for his attitude at all which I think is total BS. I'd sell that in a heartbeat. Being louder than most everyone else does not equate to being any more competitive. It's just a different way of expressing it. WRs and TEs get to be loud but most other positions can't. Linemen can't. QBs can't. Landry is just allowed to spout off because of the position he plays. It'd be a huge mistake to think he's automatically more competitive because of his antics. I could attend a game and be louder and more obnoxious than everyone else and it by no means signals that I'm a better or more competitive fan.

    What shows he's competitive is how hard to works and trains. I have no doubt he's 100% committed, but that's because of what he's shown in practice and during the offseason. He wants to be the best he can be and he's absolutely dedicated.

    But that's also why I consider the attitude entirely unrelated and unnecessary.
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Hartline & Bess were the WORST Wrs Thill has played with. They are both objectively terrible. Their terribleness is what kept defenses selling out to stop the run, because they didn't fear the WRs.
     
  7. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Early on Hartline was a good receive for Tannehill. I don't think anyone was going to herald him as a pro-bowler or even a great QB, but he was reliable and solid for Tannehill, more than other WR's on the team at the time.

    Still, we can agree to disagree.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    We can.

    However, being the best of a bad bunch at the time doesn't make Hartline or Bess good.
     
  9. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can say what you want. I stand by what I said and what is shown in the link. Hartline had a great rapport with Tannehill.

    Maybe game recognizes game and lame recognizes lame but the chemistry was there. Those out routes were hard to defend. As I said, Hartline's best skills matched Tannehill's.
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    None of that makes Hartline good.
     
  11. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yer hatin' hard here bro.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    No I'm not.

    He was terrible. He couldn't score, he couldn't gain YAC, and he was a terrible leader and teammate. Its why his career is over without Thill.
     
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  13. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Ya, Miami fans are really impatient. I mean the franchise hasn't missed the playoffs 14 out of the last 16 years or anything. And they certainly haven't waited 5 years for it to finally click for Tanny right?

    Other teams and other QB's have turned it around it less time. What we're watching is unacceptable and as always it starts at the very top.
     
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  14. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Here is my thing with Tannehill. He had Hartline, he had Bess, now he has Landry.... are we to assume none of the other WR's ever got open? Or was he just locking on and looking that his guy?
     
  15. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    This locking on thing you're talking about is being overblown, especially early in his career. Tannehill would regularly have games where he would complete passes to 5, 6 different receivers. After Landry came is when he started focusing more on him for whatever reason, but even then I don't believe it's as bad as what you're talking about, every QB has a receiver he likes throwing more to.
     
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  16. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Here's the other thing Bras...when your oline is giving you 3 seconds or fewer, how many progressions can you go through? You almost have to decide presnap who you're throwing to, hoping that they actually get open.
     
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  17. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think "staring down receivers" is something people say to describe how the short passing offense looks when you know your pre-snap read. Tannehill does seem to hold the ball a split second longer on some quick outs and quick slants. That's a fault of the QB, sure, but it's also something that's indicative of a lack of chemistry. It takes time to develop trust in a receiver. Tannehill has never sat in an offense long enough to be a savy, veteran QB.
     
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  18. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    I think Tannehill these past games is slow to react to pressure and isn't being very decisive... he's also trusting his OL too much and staying in one spot way too long. He has also had a few off target throws in situations where he couldn't (3rd downs). Lack of chemistry and familiarity with the offense amplify these flaws. I think this pretty much sums up his difficulties right now.

    "Locking on" I don't think even qualifies, all things considered.
     
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  19. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

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    Well if Gase and Tannehill turn this season around, there's going to be a lot of crow to go around. I know Tannehill has played poorly as has the whole team, but we do have a young rookie head coach who brings a new system. Back in the day when Joe Gibbs was hired by the Redskins he started his career 0-5, and a lot of people were calling for his job since he was 38 as well I believe. Gibbs only went on to become one of the greatest coaches in NFL history, I'm sure the people that wanted him fired felt pretty stupid eventually. I'm not saying Gase is the next Gibbs, but you never know he absolutely could be, we need to give him time. People aren't calling for Gase's job...yet, but my point is a young rookie head coach needs time to start getting W's, even one as great as Joe Gibbs (who btw won the SB with 3 different QB's). At the end of the day, none of our opinions really matter, it's a business and Ross is in it to make money. What matters is the opinion of men like Adam Gase, who chose this team over the Eagles probably in large part because of his belief in Ryan Tannehill. Tannehill still has all the tools to be a high level NFL QB, and I'm sure Gase see's that. Adam Gase is a hell of a lot football smarter than each and every one of our fans, even though many of our fans seem to think they know this sport very well, when in reality, they have no f****** clue what they are talking about. Gotta love the internet lol.
     
  20. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    he locked onto those guys... not saying he stared them down, but I am saying that is where he was going with the ball regardless of anything else. there would be games where he would be told to throw to wallace and suddenly he was throwing to wallace for a game. it has\had very little to do with who was really open.

    The Bengals often doubled down on Landry with help over the top, the took Landry away and Ryan was at a loss. Good defenses will do that.
     
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  21. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    the problem so far is this offense looks exactly like the last 4 years or so. I think we expected to see something different.
     
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  22. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Whatever happens with Tannehill (except possibly a season ending injury) there's going to be a lot of crow to go around.

    What will be interesting is to see how many eat crow or refuse to eat it if Tannehill doesn't turn it around. Specifically.. how many will continue to make excuses if he doesn't turn it around? Maybe we'll find out.

    Either way, IF Tannehill does turn it around, I will happily eat crow!

    (I haven't been down on Gase so that part doesn't apply to me).
     
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  23. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Actually, it's an over-reliance on his arm strength to thread the ball in there. It's mostly been physical strength first, then anticipation with him for the most part.
     
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  24. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    I hate to break it to you, but you're a fan typing on the internet. Does that automatically devalue your opinion?

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    The narrative has already been written by those you're referring to ...... aka the various coaching regimes have ruined him.
     
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  26. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I think we should all send 50 cents to such a "VICTIM"
     
  27. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    not sure anyone ruined him, he looks much the same today to me as he has his entire career. Certainly they have not made him better.
     
  28. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    I think Tannenhill flat lined after opposing defenses figured out Lazor's passing attack.

    Tannehill under Mike Sherman was developing as expected aside the idiotic go/go-go nonsense.

    I'd like to see more rollouts and I-formation play action, but Gase is infatuated with having his QB in the shotgun and conceding any hope of a decent running game to the defense.
     

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