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Tannenbaum says Dolphins will make responsible decision on Wallace

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by FinSane, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    A lot of the "wounds" are self inflicted by Philbin... he can't keep dumping talent and creating holes because he doesn't want to deal with the headaches that come along with being a HC.
     
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  2. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would rather keep him this year because we don't have a replacement (yet)…but the money isn't a major concern to me. CK is right…it all works itself out anyways. Hell look at Wallace's contract..he counted like 3 mil against the cap in his first year, then that jumped to a ridiculous 17.5 this year, and then goes down to the 12 range or something like that.
     
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  3. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Maybe we see what he have in Matt Hazel and his 4.46 speed next season...
     
  4. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I try to avoid being too negative, but it's tough with this team. I like Wallace as a player, but I just don't see anybody trading for him when they can just wait for the Dolphins to cut him.

    To me, it's stupid that the week 17 thing is even an issue. A more secure head coach would have gotten in Wallace's face and gotten him back in the game. Or rather, someone would have gotten in Wallace's face and gotten him back in the game, if not Philbin.

    We all love to rag on Jason Garrett, but how many days of the first training camp would it have taken Philbin to get rid of Dez Bryant?

    Whatever the team does with Mike Wallace should be a football decision and not a "personality" decision, IMO. This football team doesn't have enough playmakers on either side of the ball to just let another one walk, even if he isn't a great fit. [also IMO].
     
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  5. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Wallace in 2014- 67 catches- 862 yards- 10 TD's.

    Hartline in 2014- 39 catches- 474 yards- 2 TD's

    How those numbers equate to Hartline being a better fit for this offense is beyond me. Wallace may not be happy with the way he was being used in this offense, but he was far more effective in the offense than Hartline was.

    I have no problem with the team trying to trade Wallace if he is going to be a negative influence on the team going into next season. I just hope that trading or possibly cutting Wallace means they are going to keep Hartline and pay him six million dollars next year.

    At this stage of his career he isn't worth much more than the veterans minimum. If he refuses to take a big pay cut, they should just cut him and look for better WR's in free agency or the draft.
     
  6. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If I looked at it the way you do I'd think the same thing, but that wouldn't be fair because your perspective is standing on top of a hugely flawed assumption. Just because Hartline and Wallace were both on the team 2014 doesn't mean they had equal opportunity. They played separate roles within the offense. Everybody knows that.

    Hartline caught his 39 balls on 63 targets. That's about a 62% conversion rate. Hartline averaged about 12.2 YPC.
    Wallace caught his 67 balls on 115 targets. That's about a 58% conversion rate. Wallace averaged about 12.9 YPC.


    The only ground that MW has to stand on are his 10 TDs which as I've pointed out were highly tied to his being the primary target early in the season. Through the first 6 weeks MW scored 0.83 TDs per game. That was while Clay was hurt and before Landry and Sims had come on. Once the offense developed a bit Tannehill starting spreading the ball around MW's TD rate quickly slowed to a more reasonable 0.50 per game.

    If you ask me how hard it would be to get a guy in this offense to produce 850 yards on about 70 catches and produce a TD every couple of weeks, I'd say you're looking at a feat that is pretty do-able. If I gave you $10M per year to do it, I think those numbers would be very easily replicated honestly. In fact, I'd like to think that those numbers would be a starting point.

    Hartline had done very well prior to this year in which his role within the offense was heavily diminished. I don't think he slowed down as a player, he simply wasn't given many opportunities. Hartline is a guy who put up back-to-back 1000 yards seasons with Ryan Tannehill and a worse O-line. Hartline isn't the ideal WR, but the closest thing Miami has to a known commodity.

    Now if you ask me personally who I like and who I'd personally rather root for and rely on, I'd say Hartline, but that's my personal preference. I know what he brings week in, week out and his hands and ability to go up for the ball are notably better than MW's.
     
  7. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Philbin seems to value reliability more than ability, he'd better learn to deal with Wallace types bc you can't with a bunch of Boy Scouts. If a guy makes plays then he gets a little more rope to work with.
     
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  8. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And at the same time you can't let the inmates run the asylum. Personally, I'm glad that Wallace got sat down in the Jets if what he said did indeed cross a line. I don't know that it did. I wasn't there. If Philbin thought it was necessary to remove him from the game--a meaningless game at that--I'm going to have to believe he had good reason to do it.

    The fact that Hartline stepped into Wallace's role and quickly started making plays tells me a lot however. I believe Hartline caught 6 passes for 103 yards in week 17. And of course we know that he didn't even step into Wallace's role until the 2nd half.

    So in the 1 game that Hartline got to step into Wallace's role, he immediately went over 100 yards.

    How many times in the other 15 games as the team's #1 WR did Wallace accomplish that?

    Once.

    He caught 104 yards worth of balls against NE in week 15.

    Hartline is 1 for 1.
    Wallace is 1 for 15.

    I think that's very telling as far as Wallace "not fitting the offense" goes. Even a WR with a pretty average skill-set like Hartline can very quickly rack up the yards with Ryan Tannehill and this offense if he's getting the attention that Wallace got all year round. Again, it's not so much that Hartline is great (although 100 yards is a great thing). It's more that Mike Wallace really underperformed this year with exception to his early string of TDs which generally ended after week 6.



    I'm going to have to go with Tannephins on this one. I think that based on the numbers and money involved, the team would be better off complimenting Brian Hartline with a bigger and more physical WR that could be a reliable red-zone target, than complimenting Mike Wallace with something similar. Mike Wallace just doesn't fit this offense while I'm pretty sure Hartline can give me 1000 yards as the #1 target. Maybe Matthews can step up and be that red-zone guy? I don't know. He did score 2 TDs on just 12 receptions this year. I'm not all that optimistic on Matthews though.

    I say that having a good feeling that we could restructure Hartline's contract. I feel like if we extended him we could get him down into the $4M per year range which I think would be very justifiable for a guy of his skill-set. I'm not comfortable with the $6M per year figure, but I trust Hartline more than I do Wallace and I'm much more interested in seeing a Tannehill-Hartline connection come back (because I know it could happen) than I am trying to hope and pray and a Tannehill-Wallace connection eventually develops (which I'm pretty sure won't happen).
     
  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    - He hadn't actually started as HC when Marshall was traded.
    - Long chose to leave on his own.
    - Davis was not shopped.
    - As for Dansby & Burnett, they were allowed to leave in the same offseason that Philbin actually wanted Cogs removed and Martin replaced, which Ireland wouldn't do. Not sure why Ireland would get rid of Dansby & Burnett because Philbin ordered him too but not Cogs & Martin. It simply doesn't add up.

    What we're left with is a whole lot of conjecture that some how became "fact" even though there was no confirmation and the timelines don't actually add up.
     
  10. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He was given less opportunities for a reason. He doesn't fit this offense…he does a few things really well like sideline catches, hitches, etc. He does not offer anything in the RAC game which is what our offense is essentially based on. He doesn't break tackles..and he doesn't get into the end zone. Mike wallace had 10 touchdowns this season…Hartline has 12 touchdowns in 6 (!) seasons. Im sorry but points matter and you cannot expect to win games with a starting WR who averages 2 touchdowns a year…not to mention justifying paying him what we are paying him.
     
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  11. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh, they're both limited guys IMO. I agree with you whole-heartedly on that. The question for me is who I think Ryan Tannehill could have more success throwing to. Wallace is a speedster who runs bad routes. In my eyes, it's only the foolishly optimistic fans who think he's ever going to work with Ryan Tannehill. Maybe Wallace does fit Lazor's offense but right now the limiting factor isn't Lazor, it's Tannehill. So, as far as the current playbook goes, Wallace doesn't fit.

    It's fine if folks want to point to the TDs. I get it. I have my own opinions on that. I can't dispute that he fought for the ball on several occasions and increased his TD total by doing so. However, I think we forced the ball to Wallace a lot and a guy that normally produces maybe 6 or 7 TDs doing what he did this year, wound up with about 10.

    People are free to disagree. I just don't see any fluidity and consistency in this offense so long as we're rolling with Wallace. He is by definition a "big play" guy. We need route-runners and quick, agile, good-hands guys.

    And then you get to the issue of money. So when you argue Wallace versus Hartline, you should consider that we could probably get 2 Hartline's for the amount we pay Wallace. Is that helping us or is that hurting us?

    This offense--as much as it's structured around Tannehill at the present moment--thrives more on the skills that Hartline and Landry provide. I still believe that Green Bay is our model for what we want our WR position to look like. I don't see a Mike Wallace fitting in up their either. Maybe Pittsburgh, Baltimore or San Diego, but not Green Bay, Philly or Miami.
     
  12. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    JMO, but I do not think Philbin wants to get rid of Wallace. While this may ultimately be a FO decision, I do not think Philbin has a problem with Wallace, or vice versa (even after the benching).

    Philbin showed some nuts benching him, but it may have been a necessary thing for the purpose of showing the players that he doesn't care for that type of behavior because of the perceived detriment to the team; damn the player's salary.

    Personally, I would rather keep Wallace, unless it was a straight up trade for say, a Jeremy Maclin. I read about rumors that Philly may be interested in Wallace, but the source was not reliable.

    Regardless of what people think of Wallace, he DID improve in some areas this year, and showed how dynamic he can be if he puts in the effort. 10 TDs is nothing to scoff at, either. I know his overall production does not match the salary, but unless they get good trade value, maybe just let this thing play out. Getting rid of him is almost like starting over again in some regard.

    Maybe Fitzgerald gets released from AZ, but if Palmer gets back on track, maybe he stays. I was really surprised Fitz was in an AZ uni last season. I think he could be a good fit for this offense for a year or three.

    **And just another thought: how will the overall dynamics of this O change IF Wallace does not suit up for Miami next year? Do the defenses play Miami differently? And do they move the ball with the same frequency as they did in '14 sans a Mike Wallace?

    In-between the 20s, they were tops in the league. Does that change?
     
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  13. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would say that I agree they both have flaws…but presently Wallace IS a better fit both for the offense and Tannehill. I will take the season Mike Wallace just put up over any season Hartline has ever put up without question. Mike Wallace is not a great fit no…but neither is Hartline and Wallace is far more talented and productive. Tannehill just had his best statistical season "forcing" the ball to Wallace. We do not have a WR like Jordy Nelson or Cobb…we just don't. I wish we did, and maybe we can get one. I can tell you that GB wouldn't want Brian Hartline up there in their offense either. Im not even advocating keeping Wallace in this discussion (although I probably would for another year) but rather saying Hartline should be gone regardless…and he is nowhere near the player Wallace is.
     
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  14. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    In six years in the league, Hartline has a grand total of 12 TD's. To me Hartline is a dime a dozen type WR in the NFL.

    You stated that he fits Lazors system better than Wallace, yet it was with the Lazor system that Hartline's role in the offense was diminished. That seems to imply that Lazor didn't think much of Hartline.

    I will admit I've never been a big Hartline fan. He s a player who shows up for a few games each season and then he seems to disappear in other games. He also fails to get open in the red zone and that is why his TD production has been so low during his career. Even in his two 1000 yard seasons, he was dead wood inside the red zone.

    To me a quality coaching staff would be able to get the best out of a player like Wallace. I just think Philbin would rather just get rid of talented players he can't deal with. Of course these talented players have gone to other teams where coaches have had no problem dealing with these players.

    Personally I would take a Mike Wallace or even a Brandon Marshall over Hartline. To me they are better players and better players are what this team needs.

    Hartline is a very mediocre receiver, but he is seen as reliable because he doesn't complain. Give me 22 complainers on offense and defense who know how to win and I'll be a happy camper.

    Two of the biggest complainers in the history of the Dolphins were Duper and Clayton. They were always yelling at Marino and telling him to throw them the ball more. They would complain in the game and on the sideline. Marino simply yelled back and them and Shula certainly didn't let these disagreements on the field cause him to trade Duper or Clayton in their prime.

    He understood that talent wins games and you don't get rid of your most talented players because they get upset from time to time. Philbin would rather have the straight and narrow mediocre players on the roster because they are easier for him to deal with.

    The better coaches know how to deal with the various personalities on a team. This is something Philbin seems to lack the ability to do. As he has shown during his three years in Miami, he would rather trade away or cut more talented players simply because he doesn't know how to relate to these players. Yet these players have left Miami and found other head coaches who have been able to relate to these players.

    I have no doubt if Wallace is cut or traded, he will far more productive under his next head coach than he had been under Philbin.
     
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  15. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    RIP, bro
     
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  16. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'll be honest. I just flat out don't like watching Mike Wallace. He just doesn't play a brand of football that I enjoy watching, or that I support or that I want to root for. He has horrible feet, a weak lower body, his routes are terribly sloppy, he's a total body catcher and worst of all, he's too emotionally up and down for my taste.

    That said, I think people are vastly underestimating Brian Hartline as an asset. It's funny how easily he earned a contract extension in Sherman's offense by putting up 2 solid seasons with a young and underdeveloped QB. Yet he almost instantly becomes rubbish to the fans now that Lazor is here. Some people say it's because Hartline doesn't fit the offense. Well, wait...why isn't it fair to look at it the other way around and say Lazor is horribly under-utilizing a real asset?

    Maybe Lazor didn't realize what he had when he came here? It's not like we saw this team utilize Gibson or Matthews to the extent that we would've liked. Philbin has a history of under-utilizing players and I think Lazor was guilty of that same sin this year.

    That in no way is me saying that Hartline is a God at WR. He's very average in many ways but he is more clutch and has made in his time here more "wow" catches than any other WR on this roster. Go watch his highlights if you don't admire him as an asset. Remind yourself of who this guy was under Mike Sherman. He was a strength of the team no doubt.

    What it comes down to for me is how well Tannehill and Hartline seem to connect (regardless the distance). The week 17 game showed us how quickly the Tannehill-Hartline connection can be summoned if it were built into the offense properly. I think that is something which is do-able.

    I don't think losing Wallace and his 10 TDs is all that big a deal. Now that Landry, Matthews, Clay and Sims are all options for us, we're spreading the ball around quite a bit more than we were when Wallace was so impressive anyway. Add someone else to that mix and I think you have a quality WR-corp.
     
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  17. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    For the record, I have little to say in regards to the players attitudes or how the coaches deal with them. That is the furthest thing from my mind. It really doesn't matter at the end of the day. This is a production business. Thus we're having a conversation about skills and performance.

    See my above post for the Hartline vs Wallace stuff.

    I just find it very hard to--as a fan of the game--root for Wallace.
     
  18. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    You make sound points, Greg, but Wallace accounted for 15% of the team's total scoring last year. The 388 points the Dolphins scored last year was 7th all-time in team history, and this was without the likes of a Moreno and other key offensive pieces at various times throughout the season. *The 15% is not accounting for PATs, just the six.

    Of course, there are arguably better fits for the offense, but will those options be available either via draft or FA? While many rookie wideouts had fantastic seasons this year, all were inconsistent. I think this is what you're going to get in the draft. The learning curve is inevitable save for a few great ones.

    So you look at someone via trade or FA. Who is out there? I would love, love, love for a Jeremy Maclin to be in a Dolphins uniform. But does he come to terms with Philly? I would like a Fitzgerald. But if Palmer is ready and they name him the starter, I think he would opt to stay. And his recent injury hx concerns me.

    My point is, you have to replace a player of Wallace's caliber/potential with an equal or better. I just do not know if Miami has that option right now.

    I do not pay too much attention to who could potentially be a signee, so maybe someone could throw out some names for us.

    I am more inclined to stick with him for another year because you know what you have and hope he continues to improve within the offense. If he does, great! If he does not, you still get solid production.

    I just have a difficult time thinking there will be someone out there who can change a defensive scheme for the team like Wallace who will be available for '15. Maybe there is, but I think losing Wallace without a comparable replacement (or better) may hurt this team more than just the 10 TDs.
     
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  19. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd be okay w/ getting rid of Wallace depending on what the actual cost to the team is. I mean $$$ cost. Obviously there better be a plan to replace him. We have a lot of needs to fill and we need money to do it.
     
  20. MiamiDolphin618

    MiamiDolphin618 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I mean we can go back and forth about who is a better fit, its clear you don't like Wallace as you have already said and I think thats why you seem to have a bias. Hartline is an average receiver…he was average when he had 1000 yards and he's average now. You seem to value yards quite a bit…I value touchdowns. Davone Bess had lots of yards too. Some players have a nose for the end zone and some do not. When it comes down to it…yards don't win games, points do. Mike Wallace for all of his faults put up points this year..and he did it with far less targets than Hartline received in his two "big years".

    I think losing Wallace would be a big deal unless they replace him with someone who is capable of putting up those types of numbers. Is that possible? Sure it is. But its completely separate from the fact that Hartline should not be on this team next year without a big pay cut. He's schedules to make what 7 mil next year? Give me a break..there are probably 10+ receivers in the draft who Id take over Hartline in a nanosecond…not even considering FA.
     
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  21. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    Among wide receivers targeted at least 50 times in 2014, 31 of them in the league were more productive on a yards-per-target basis than Mike Wallace. The number of those receivers who had a bigger salary cap hit for their team is zero.
     
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  22. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    Basically. If he's not here we are spending less money, and frankly even if it is 2.5 million, then thats the rookie pool taken care of if you want to find a caveman simplistic view of looking at it, even though we know the rookie pool is a separate entity. We can use that money to do something with, hell we could find an average player at certain positions for that money. Like a punter and a kicker if we want, a long snapper, backup guard who can actually act as a speed bump for the oncoming rush. You pretty much name it and we can do something useful with that money.

    Too bad football is not like baseball where we could absorb some of his salary as a means of making a trade easier to consumate. Its not like Ross doesn't throw money away, he's likely to extend Philbin, and unless we do something great next year he's likely gone anyway; hence wasting money. I'd rather use that money to lower the damage to another team provided we could trade him easier.
     
  23. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Did you miss the whole Hard Knocks series?


    - It was reported by Armando that Marshall had a conversation with Sherman when Philbin and Sherman first took over and Marshall was not receptive to the type of offense Sherman wanted to operate.
    - Davis was traded away after several incidents and Philbin and Coyles decided to have Ireland trade him after the Colts saw the incident on HK.
    - Burnett was oft injured and accused of faking injuries to avoid off-season conditioning.
    - Dansby, Bush, Long, and others challenged Philbin over the handling of Chad Johnson
    - From reports, Philbin wanted Cogs gone over a drunken incident involving a volunteer at some event. Ireland swept the issue under the rug as he couldn't find a better guard before the season started to replace Cogs and had opted to keep him for the 2013 season.
    - "Bullygate" happened on Philbin's watch. He made the decision to hire Mike Sherman and Mike Sherman in turn had him hire his cousin, Jim Turner, as the OL Coach. It was Turner who orchestrated several of the "toughening" up incidents involving Martin, as well as distributing anatomically correct blow up dolls and other pranks.
    - Martin was that season's Dallas Thomas. As a fomer OL coach, Philbin seems stubborn about staying with these sort of experiments even when they are continued disasters. I suspect it was because Philbin was involved in the decision to draft each.

    All of this was stuff from Hard Knocks, Armando, or James Walker's reports.
     
  24. bigbry

    bigbry Huge Member

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    Get into Philbins doghouse and you are not playing.

    If there is a good reason, no problem but the rest is indicative of a petty High School coach
     
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  25. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Token Gay Dolfan

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    he quit on his team. bag his ***.
     
  26. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's pretty damning. I mean the 31 number more than the the salary number. Obviously not all on Wallace, but 31 is every other team out there.
     
  27. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thee...Ohio State University
    Lol.
     
  28. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Or... just tell him you're done for the day. What's he going to do, right? lol...

    This is just funny... and it's probably totally real. I mean, if you read it on the internet, right? :shifty:

     
  29. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    No team will absorb that contract even if you offer him for a 7th round pick... Might as well cut your losses on lesser talented players like Hartline.
     
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  30. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not going to be upset if we're stuck with Mike Wallace again next year. His TD numbers while in Pittsburgh were very solid (6, 10, 8, 8). In his first and second years in Miami he's put up 5 and 10, respectively. Any way you slice it, averaging 8 TDs per season with such a small variance is dog gone impressive.

    However, the future isn't as bright when you look at the system as a whole. It's not really about what any 1 particular player did in my opinion if the system as a whole is more or less the same. Keep in mind that Tannehill threw for 24 TDs last year and that despite Mike Wallace having such a big year in terms of scoring, Tannehill only raised his TD total to 27 this year. A difference of a whopping 3 TDs, and that's with the addition of Jarvis Landry and his 84 catches!

    So while Mike Wallace got the majority of the attention, Hartline and Gibson both saw their numbers go down. That is to say that Hartline operated in a decreased role and Gibson's season totals were roughly the same as what he had produced up through week 7 of last year when he got hurt. Matthews caught 2 last year and again 2 this year. The TE and RB positions both produced less as well.

    So, just to be a bit technical, the total output of the Dolphins passing game in terms of scoring was a bit more lopsided in 2014 but altogether it was very similar. Did we get more out of Mike Wallace? Sure, but it was at the expense of our other WRs and TEs whose numbers were a bit less.

    If anything made a real difference, it was the emergence of Jarvis Landry who bolstered the slot WR numbers with his 5 scores this year.



    Looking at 2013 (Sherman):

    Outside WR 11
    Slot WR 3
    TE 7
    RB 3

    Total = 24 TDs on 3900 yards


    In 2014 (Lazor):

    Outside WR 14
    Slot WR 6
    TE 5
    RB 2

    Total = 27 TDs on 4000 yds


    In other words, Sherman helped Tannehill distribute the ball more effectively.

    5 - Wallace (21%)
    4 - Hartline (17%)
    2 - Matthews (8%)
    3 - Gibson (12%)
    6 - Clay (25%)
    1 - Sims (4%)
    3 - RBs (12%)

    Lazor was obviously more keyed in on certain guys. The top 2 targets alone account for 56% of the production, while 3 to 4 others regressed!

    10 - Wallace (37%)
    5 - Landry (19%)
    2 - Hartline (7%)
    2 - Matthews (7%)
    1 - Gibson (4%)
    3 - Clay (11%)
    2 - Sims (8%)
    2 - RBs (7%)


    All that this should tell you is that whether or not Mike Wallace comes back with 5 TDs or 10 TDs next year, it's not really going to matter a whole lot. If he goes away then we'll see Hartline, Gibson, Landry, Matthews, Clay, Sims, and Miller pick up the slack along with whoever else we add. In fact, I think the safe bet is that the production does even out a bit.

    This is why I've said before to the folks who panic at the thought of losing Wallace, that his production within this offense is (at least to a very large extent) replaceable.

    The 10 TDs is sort of a myth when he basically stole them from other guys and the total didn't change very much at all. Even then, the slight increase is more or less a reflection of Sims and Landry stepping up. All I'm saying is that losing Wallace won't be that much of a hit to this offense.

    The problem really lies in the fact that this passing game is only averaging about 25 TDs per year over the last two seasons. When that's the case, nobody's contribution is really that big a deal. In fact, if our QB can't even hit 30 TDs, I don't see a need for this team to pay any pass-catcher more than $5M per year.





    So what about the increased output of Bill Lazor's offense? Well, while the passing game was fractionally better (27 versus 24 TDs & 4,045 versus 3,913 yds), it was the improvements to the running game that really helped. Lamar Miller improved from 2 scores in 2013 to 8 in 2014. In addition, Caleb Sturgis attempted 3 more FGs this year, all of which he made. That's a total of 3.6 more points per game than last year, with roughly 63% coming from things other than the passing game.

    So here's what I would say to conclude this little article...

    Bill Lazor's passing game was only marginally better than Mike Sherman's. Last year, everyone was excited with what Hartline, Gibson, and Matthews brought to the table and thus most everyone was talking about the diversity of our WR group. We even questioned the addition of Jarvis Landry. Do we need this guy? Is he going to fit? Was he worthy of a 2nd round pick?

    Now keep in mind that while Jarvis Landry was a solid addition, he really only served to replace what Gibson (and to some extent Hartline) had done for us last year. Is that really an upgrade or can we be honest and say it was probably a lateral move?

    Unfortunately, instead of building on the strengths of those 3 that we had (Hartline, Gibson and Matthews), Lazor chose to minimize their contributions this year in favor of making Wallace and Landry the #1 and #2 targets. You know how people always wax nostalgic about how great Shula was in regards to building around his talent? Well it would seem that Bill Lazor is having none of that. He built around 1 feature guy and drafted another while kicking at least 2 or 3 other guys to the curb who had been productive in 2013.


    Is this passing game better? Yes, by some small percentage, which might just be attributed to the maturation of a young QB.

    Does it make you forget about what you had in Hartline, Gibson and Matthews? Yes, it does.

    Is passing for 4000 yards impressive? Yes, but not as much when you realize you had 3900+ the year before.

    Is it biased towards highlighting Mike Wallace? Yes, it is.
     
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  31. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Getting rid of Hartline is the first step in righting the ship and getting bad contracts out of the building. What is he good for? At least Wallace is a deep threat getting overpaid, Hartline is just overpaid.
     
  32. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Doesn't bode well for maximizing Wallace's trade value either..... nor does it bode well for motivating Wallace to continue giving maximum effort to a new guy and an old coach whom he thinks might be out to get him. If he's on the team, he needs to be 100% focused. If he's to be traded, this needs to be yet another example of the media overblowing an issue to generate traffic.

    What Tannenbaum should've said [for the best interest of the offense and the best interest of a potential trade] is, "I wasn't here at the time but I've heard from many supporters of Mike that he worked his tail off all season and was quite a selfless player through the first 15 games. The guy still has a sour taste in his mouth after losing to the Packers in the SB, and now for the second straight year he's seen his team's season end in major disappointment ok. There were a lot of negative emotions flying around leading up to and during the Jets game. Unfortunately Mike was the only one to let it get the best of him.... but he's a passionate, competitive man who wants to help his team win, so I'm not gonna let one emotional instance ruin the rest of a perfectly good season, b/c it's clear that this offense is better with Mike in it than out. Look, no matter what reasons Mike had to lose his cool, he could've done a better job of controlling it. Even Mike knows that, but we're not gonna cut off our nose to spite our face for one incident in a meaningless game. In fact, I haven't had a chance to meet with Mike yet, but my first words to him won't be about the Jets game; they'll be to thank him for how hard he worked to help this offense improve, which I know had to be a little frustrating for him considering he was rewarded with very few deep balls and deep ball opportunities. Then secondly I'll tell him it's a goal of mine to get him more deep opportunities next season b/c it's been a real joy over the years watching him light up secondaries, provided they weren't the team's I worked. The last thing I'll tell him is- The NY game, don't let it happen again b/c we both know you're better than that. It's no secret that Miami has made emotional, rash decisions about players in the past which ended up downgrading those players' position and making matters worse, and I don't wanna see that happen again out of a desire to make a mountain out of a molehill."
     
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  33. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Ahhhh yes, the Gary Busey argument. "Hartline, Clay, and Gibson combined for a whopping 7 fewer TDs than last year, ergo it's Wallace's fault Tannehill only threw 3 more TDs in 2014". :unsure:

    Orrrrrr another way to say it using your logic, maybe not so Gary Busey'ish this time, would be: "Perhaps if Miami's starting TE and starting Z receiver matched or exceeded their TD production from last year [you know, like Wallace did], then Tannehill would've hit 32+ TDs" .... or perhaps you'd prefer to phrase it as, "Tannehill was lucky to have Wallace haul in 10 TDs to make up for the 7 less from Clay, Hartline, and Gibson".

    Gimme a break. How many more TDs than 27 can Tannehill throw when he's got 2 big problems to overcome?! {besides the aforementioned "7"}
    1) his starting Z receiver is Mr Endzone Allergic Hartline [who expectedly returned to earth after his inflated 4 scores of last year].
    2) he needs 238 rolls of velcro and Snoopy from the Thanksgiving Day Parade in order to complete a f***ing deep ball!!

    I hope you realize it's pretty difficult to hit a 30+ TD season without at least 1 guy catching roughly 10+ TDs or multiple guys catching 7 or 8+. LOL that you think you can just divvy out Wallace's 10 like they're skittles. "Here Hartline, here's 5 more for you sir, you know- since you'll be directly replacing Wallace and all, so it's only logical that we give you half, pushing your 2015 TD total to 7"...... "What's that Brian?"....... "Yes, we're aware that you only had 1 TD on 131 targets and the offense ranked 27th in scoring and 28th in reaching redzone the last time you were the starting X receiver, but we've fitted your cleats with rear jet boosters, springs, and a special anti-trip device so we're good."

    Who do you think you're fooling? You could put a second tube of lipstick on that pig and the rest of us will still know Hartline's numbers suffered a stroke because he stinks, not because he merely "operated in a decreased role".

    That's not technical. That's just more Gary Busey. Who cares whose expense it was at if Tannehill and the offense improved b/c of it.

    Wait, so Landry's 5 scores that increased the slot WR TD production by 3 is somehow a greater difference-maker than Wallace replacing Hartline which has increased the TD production at outside WR from 3 to 14? Stop Busey'ing around.

    And how about the improvement in scoring that Wallace provides by way of his speed creating space for the rest of the offense to operate in which helped them reach the redzone a league-leading amount of times? The real difference was replacing Hartline with Wallace. Landry was a fine addition, but the real difference is Wallace. Replace him with Hartline and see how quickly the "Landry difference" dries up as defenses take him away with no one on the outside to prevent them from focusing on Miami's new top WR in this scenario.

    How did Sherman help Tannehill distribute the ball MORE effectively when the passing offense under Sherman was LESS effective?

    No kidding Hartline's targets regressed. That's what happens when weak talent and weak coaching is replaced with better talent and coaches who know how to use it better. C'mon Busey.

    No, it wasn't Lazor who keyed more on certain guys. It was Sherman who did that, giving 17% of the targets to Hartline. All Lazor did was fix the distribution to where it should be, with the targets becoming more appropriately based on the talent, injuries, and return-from-injuries that the OC has to work with. It's amusing that you use a failed fired OC as grounds for how things were done right, rather than the guy who came in and fixed his mess.

    It's funny how you compare Wallace to Wallace instead of Wallace to life before Wallace.
    Wallace had 10 TDs alone this year. The entire passing game had 13 in 2012 before his arrival, but yeah- not much has changed. :unsure:

    Yup, Wallace stole the TDs. :unsure: Apparently everyone else was equally open but Mike somehow forced Tannehill to throw it to him instead.

    Yeahhh real smart move. Miami could "only" score 27 passing TDs instead of 30, so we might as well pack it all in and hire a mediocre crew of receivers to get us back below 20 TDs to save money and make Tannehill's continued development as difficult as possible.

    Passing and running share a symbiotic relationship in this offense.
     
  34. ASOT

    ASOT New Member

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    you know where he'll go if we cut him......NE......Brady would be estatic if we released him
     
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  35. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not a chance they'd be interested.
     
  36. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    On what merits are you making this very bold statement? Other than your obvious agenda? Any facts to this matter of fact comment? Or just more.....well.......ya know.
     
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  37. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Is that indicative of Wallace or Tannehill who does have a lot of shorter passes
     
  38. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    good write up. You always go out of your way to make your argument strong and your thoughts are almost always relivent, nice to see and thanks for putting in that type of effort. You make the board a better place as a result.

    This is a passing league and we need to increase our passing production by balancing it with our run game, lol tell you something you don't already know.

    Cutting Wallace or trading him without having a way to replace his production is a recipe for suicide. It wouldn't surprise me that Tannenbaum would come in and make such a decision. After all he has got a lot of proving to do with me. He is from the ****ing Jets. Ought to tell us everything we need to know. Based on Philbin history I would be surprised if he ever plays another down for the Dolphins. Maybe more telling is who will make that decision. If Tannenbaum makes it, then maybe we have a clue that Ross is reeling in Philbins authority or the decision has already been made and Ross with Tannenbaum's help is going to make sure we don't give Wallace away like we did with Vonte, Long and Marshall.

    I also think Tannenbaum will not only evaluate Philbin but also search quietly for his replacement. I also think you will see EWric Mangini at some point possibly as our DC
     
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  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    No.

    There were reports Marshall slugged someone at a club and a deal with Chicago was made. There are no other confirmed reports of any of that stuff you said.

    Davis was traded, but he wasn't shopped. Indy came calling us. They made an offer, we weren't shopping Davis, which means we weren't actively trying to get rid of him.

    As for Dansby, Burnett, Bush & Long, you are reading into things and making inferences. You've bought into the narrative that Philbin **** canned everyone from the leadership council, which again, is not true. Long left because of Ireland. Dansby & Burnett were released by Ireland who at the time was not following Philbin's wishes as evidenced by the Martin & Cogs stuff.

    Bullygate has nothing to do with my point. I'm only arguing this unfounded perception that Philbin gets rid of players who challenge him or are tough to deal with. It is all conjecture and misremembering of events.

    I get it, Philbin is not a great coach (I was wrong about that), but there's enough things in his "cons" column that we don't need to add stuff that simply isn't true.
     
  40. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    I'm sure we will make the wrong decision when the time comes. That's what kind of funk this team has been in since Ross has took over.
     

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