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Ted Ginn was less of a weapon in 2008

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Aug 14, 2009.

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  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Our kick return game has been on my mind this training camp, someone had a post last season about "missing yards in special teams" or something along those lines, and (Ck?) broke out the stats and discovered our poor ST meant our offense had to make up an extra 100yds in field position, on average, each game.

    The reason is clear, Ted Ginn simply underperformed massively last season:

    His 2007 line:

    34 catches/420 yds/63 kick returns for 1,433 yds/24 punt returns for 233 yds

    Ted Ginn total yards for 2007=2,080

    His 2008 line:

    receptions 56/790 yds kick offs 32/657 yds punts 7/54 yds

    Total yds 1,501

    Davone Bess did make up some of the yardage with 21 returns for 231 yds

    1,731 yds for Bess and Ginn in 2008.

    Ginn's ypr avg was down about 3 yds per return, or 100 yds his punt return average was down 4 yds per attempt, and we had no one to make up that gap.

    Our ST unit was not good in 2007, neither was it very good in 2008, but the difference in performance is surprising, in 07 Ginn was a pro bowl alternate as a kick returner, in 08 he performed poorly.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8263/career;_ylt=Ah0pO8D26IBp9cN5mCHe233.uLYF

    What mitigates Ginn's lack of performance is he had half the kick off return attempts, however even with less return chances, he performed worse on average.

    This is one of the places I'm not on the same page as HC Sparano, to me there is yardage to be had if a player was designated to be mostly a kick returner (I have high hopes for Chris Williams) but Sparano's philosophy is he does not have players on the squad for ST excellence only.

    If I Wr steps up and is just explosive returning kicks this preseason perhaps Sparano will change his mind.
     
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  2. bbqpitlover

    bbqpitlover Well-Known Member

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    This is an easy mark for me as I have never been a Ginn fan and believe he is a bust. Ginn is not physical nor particularly good at running routes. I have heard people on here saying Ginn is still learning, but to me if you can't figure out how to run simple routes with in a few years chances are you don't belong in the NFL. Ginn is a constant reminder of Cameron and I honestly believe this year will be make or break for Ginn if he keeps under performing he will be gone by this time next year.
     
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  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Disagree, he's not a bust, his receiving numbers were up across the board, save yac, but I do think Sparano and Co have to get serious about the return game, if Ginn is "the guy" then they should expect more from him, if he is not, don't put some spare Wr returning kicks, put someone back there who is a threat to take it to the house and who knows how to gain positive yardage consistently.
     
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  4. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    As someone who played WR I'm just going to say its much much harder to run crisp, clean, perfect routes at full speed than you're implying here. Especially with people hand checking, pushing, and bumping you off the line.
     
  5. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm not a big Ginn fan, but he did show flashes last year. Yes he was inconsistent.

    But its to early to call him a bust.

    This year is a big year for him.

    He can be a Terry Glenn type or better, which isn't to bad.
     
  6. dolfan7171

    dolfan7171 Well-Known Member

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    You are making some good points there padre31. From Sparano's point of view, he wants players that could be a "jack of all trades" if you will. In his mind the more you can do, the more useful and more dangerous you will be. In my mind, that will wear a player out. I don't care how conditioned or strong you are, that could make a person too thin for use on a consistent basis.

    As for you point of view, I do see it that way. Ginn should have been used more often and perhaps a bit more coaching could have helped. I personally believe he should focus on receiving only but if he can figure out his returning woes, maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. Chris Williams I am hoping makes the team at that position. I think he could make some waves. I wouldn't mind seeing James Robinson back there too. I think it would be pretty interesting to see.

    I like what you said better though.
     
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  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Robinson or Chris Williams who was a All NCAA returner at NMSU.

    What really should happen is Sparano should make a decision whether or not Returning Kicks at a high level is something he feels he needs philosophically, or whether not turning the ball over and making small but positive yardage is what he is looking for in a returner.

    D Bess averaged 11 yds per punt return, Ginn in 07 was up around 13.4 with a TD, and a good returner can also force the opponents to kick the ball out of bounds on a kick off creating better field position, that happened in 07 when Ginn was going well.
     
  8. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    honestly, if you look at those numbers the stat that sticks out to me is the decrease in punt and kick returns. It wasnt just a few less oportunities it was many. Thats the real reason why he didnt produce as much.
     
  9. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Boy, it sure is a shame the Falcons wasted their time on Roddy White and the Colts on Reggie Wayne. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Less of a weapon, yet he scored more? Since he had less touches and more scores, doesn't that mean he was a more effective weapon in 2008?
     
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  11. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yep, Ditto what Greg said exactly.....with the exception of I would use 2 O's in that last to(o) :tongue2:
     
  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Hmm...I don't think it is FAL, with less chances if he were serious about it, he would have averaged more per return, extra returns unless he broke some for TD's would have only increased the mediocrity, true he would have had more yardage, but he would have averaged less per attempt and imho that means he was a better all around threat in 07 vs 08.

    The argument that Pennington was holding Ted Ginn back is not as strong when his fall off in ST performance is also taken into account, if Sparano wants him pulled off kick returns that would be fine, however we should then replace him with a player who could be just as explosive which is not that difficult to do.
     
  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    No, because if he were elite, his averages should have moved upwards in his second year returning kicks, instead they regressed.
     
  14. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Yea, because return success is totally directly related to offensive success. :no: (and I don't even think CP is holding Ginn back)
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You misread what I wrote Stitches, what I'm saying is if Ginn had continued to progress at returning kicks the talk of him being a "bust" would have been for nil as whether penny can get him the ball deep or not, he is still making plays.
     
  16. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Who said he was elite?

    It is special TEAMS anyway, not special returner.


    Hester must really suck too then, since his KR avg dropped from year 1 to year 2. And his PR average dropped significantly from year 2 to 3.

    I mean with all that extra experience, he should get better each year. Not like his success is at all dependent on those players around him or anything. :pity:
     
  17. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    He was still making plays. He made more plays in arguably less chances last year.
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    He made the pro bowl in 07 as a returner, in 08, from fumbles to ypa to avg per punt return, Ginn was down across the board.
     
  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not in ST he wasn't, he was so poor they pulled him off of punt returns in favor of D Bess.

    Put it this way, in half of the attempts he fumbled three times more returning punts in 07 vs 08.
     
  20. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Show me anywhere where someone on the dolphins' staff said they pulled Ginn from return duties because he performed poorly at it. Go on, I'll wait.
     
  21. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    As was our whole ****ing STs units.

    Oh wait, this is another chance to hate on Ginn, I forgot. Nothing he does is right.
     
  22. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    Its simple we didn't have the pieces on ST for Ginn. Make no mistake if has room he can bring it back. All it takes is 1 miss and he is gone and he showed that in a game against Seattle? where he made a lil juke move and worked perfectly.

    In 08 he was pretty much stripped of return man. I'm sure Sporano wanted a sure bet in Field Position and chose Bess. Bess covers ground very Quickly and usually got out to the 25-30 but for pure playmaker Bess can never do what Gin can do so with Ginn its High Risk High reward. Sure some KO he may only get to the 17-19 but other times he may break it to the 40-50 or even a TD.

    I remember in 07 he had what 4-5 Returns TD's that were called back.


    Also Ginn as a WR would be better off on a team that airs it out. I know CP aired it out but it was a rarity for CP to truly air it out and take a chance to Ginn. I believe Ginn actually caught a TD bomb from CP and I wondered why we didnt do more of that. Also against the Jets we saw Ted Ginn actually comeback and fight for the ball.

    Say what you want but he progressed as a RECEIVER last year.
     
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  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You may have forgotten, we were terrible on ST in 07...as in string Keith Armstrong up bad in 07.

    Ginn was a one man band on ST in 07, seriously, the only ST holdover was Cobbs and he was a bit player in 07, we got rid of everyone but Cobbs and Denny between 07 and 08.



    Where did you get that idea?

    :dunno:

    I like Ginn enough to cough out some dough to buy his autographed items, I love him as a player, I do think Sparano needs to decide if Ginn is the ST guy he wants, or if a roster spot should be used on someone else to replace him so Ginn can focus on WR.

    We lost some 100 ypg in lost return yardage as well as field position, we must regain those yds and then some this season to remain competitive, I'd prefer if Ginn is that guy, but if someone else does it, that is fine as well.
     
  24. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    So did Josh Cribbs (and he wasn't even an alternate like Ginn), yet he was down across the board too. Could it possibly be that these things just happen some times?
     
  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    :yes:


    Bess was a punt return guy, and Ginn's issues were largely in punt returns, maybe he lost his taste for that job?



    :yes:

    That is the Ted Ginn I think we need this season.


    Granted, as a Wr Ginn improved, as a weapon an all around threat...not so much.

    Between poor fielding of kicks and the drop in return average, we lost yds in the ST game last season, if Ginn is a Wr only we must find someone who can regain those lost yds.
     
  26. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    Well the only thing I can think of is the Speed overall at the Pro level. Ginn was a monster in college largely because he was the fastest player on the field however in the NFL he still might be the fastest but not by much. Plus the punting is so much better in the Pros that if Ginn doesn't have alot of room to field it his speed is null its not like he is quick like Bess he needs a good 10-15 yards before he hits stride.

    Thats true but like I said at the NFL level Ginn can bring at least 3-5 Kickoffs to the house now thats a small percentage but its still a higher probability of 6 points than what Bess can do.
     
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  27. Gitrdone

    Gitrdone New Member

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    I feel Sparano needs to show confidence in him and put him there. Hester was known for fumbling also, but he brought em to the house. Well not so much last year cause he was focusing on being a WR. Wait, Ginn was focusing on being a WR and his return suffered also. I see a pattern here.

    Show confidence in the player, and you just might see some good results.
     
  28. The Aqua Crush

    The Aqua Crush New Member

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    Nice breakdown padre.

    I think with Ginn his problem came from lack of direction and consistency in role. I think for me the verdict is still out on what type of player he will turn out to be. This year and next will go a long way on what i think his potential will be or not be.

    The coaching staff that drafted him had high hopes, first in the return game. Then Sparano and co. wanted him as a wideout, less as a returner. There has been mixed direction sent his way and he's been great at just working hard and doing what is asked of him. He trusts the coaches and plays whatever position he is asked. This is the first year where i think he has some consistency at his position and more importantly the role, going into the season. It is my opinion it will be easier for him to be more focused, without wondering what they will or will not have him doing tomorrow.

    I think Ted's instruction, trust from the coaches and teamates, and role is finally defined. Its' something he's wanted and he feels comfortable in his role. If he still can't find success this season i woudl tend to believe he may not become the true wide out we were expecting. However it might not mean he can't be a solid nfl reciever. He still might fill a role and help the team as a wideout.

    But like i mentioned. The instability and some ups and some downs has led me to hold my thought on Ted, but i have a feeling his situation right now could be a big factor on what we have in Ted going forward. In ways i have a feeling he's like our Jason Allen on O. Just with a little more production so far. Versitile, different roles, some success, some underperformance, both first round picks. But i have a feeling our coaches can get the most out of these guys. Their good at bringing competition in to make guys perform and earn their spots.
     
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  29. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    I would think the Coaches would use him in the Wildcat as he can throw better than Ronnie Brown.
     
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  30. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Special teams is one of those things that is hard to predict from year to year. What made Devin Hester so great a few years ago was that he seemed to perform at an extremely high level with consistency. But once you saw him being used as a WR more and more the worse his special teams performance was. I think the numbers would bear that out for most guys, another example is the guy from KC whose name has slipped my mind.

    Assuming they find someone decent in camp to handle the return duties I doubt we see Ginn or even Bess on any kind of special teams duty much at all this season. And that's probably a good thing because for some reason, I would assume they aren't getting the same amount of reps because of WR duties, you just don't see guys producing at a high level as both a WR and a K/P returner.

    I'm guessing coaching staffs have run the numbers and come to the conclusion that whatever bonus in terms of yards one guy has over another that difference isn't enough to justify the risk of injury and the lack of complete focus on being a WR. At least I hope that is the case because Ginn was absolutely incredible at OSU and showed some signs of being special in his rookie year.
     
  31. m ino

    m ino New Member

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    nice write up padre..something we really havent discussed much here in low level. i was under the impression that he was pulled from return duties so he could focus more on his route running abilities which definately improved last yr..not saying he is a all-pro route runner but he did improve he just wasn't physical enough to get off some of the stronger db's. now a yr later he is stronger,more athletic and has a better grasp of the playbook this regime has installed. unless someone like bess just blows him out of the water in camps and pre-season i'd really like to see him given his return duties back this season and if it doesn't work out or we don't see him progressing by say week 6 then we go for a change up again.

    i wasn't a fan of where he was picked but won't neccisarilly call him a all-around bust just yet.reminds me of how i feel about j.allen in that he is coming on as a st ace but you just don't pick st players with your first overall pick.if ginn were crap at wr and could only play st then maybe i think about using the b word.if ginn really comes on as a wr then i don't fell as bad as i would if all he ever amounts to in his carreer is a returnman.
     
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  32. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You Club Member

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    I care more about Ginn progression on offense, moreso than on special teams. Ginn made plays in 2008, he did not in 2007. There are multiple times this season where I could say "if Ted Ginn didn't make this play, we don't win." Sometimes I don't think what Ginn brings is good enough no matter what he'd do. He could have a 1,200 yard, 10 TD receiving and some people would STILL ***** about it. I know people would, that's simply the way things work.

    This argument is beyond crap, IMO. Special teams is very inconsistent and you'll notice not every year the same guy is being shown on the highlight reel. Ginn improved majorly at wide receiver and that's all that really matters to me.
     
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  33. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    My assumptions were right about Hester. Here are his career numbers.

    06: punt returns, 47 for 600 yards (12.8 ypr) and 3 TDs
    kick returns, 20 for 528 yards (26.4 ypr) and 2 TDs

    07: punt returns, 42 for 651 yards (15.5 ypr) and 4 TDs
    kick returns, 43 for 934 yards (21.7 ypr) and 2 TDs

    08: punt returns, 32 for 198 yards (6.2 ypr) and 0 TDs
    kick returns, 31 for 679 yards (21.9 ypr) and 0 TDs

    He had no receptions in 06, 20 in 07, and 51 in 08.

    Dante Hall was a bit of an exception, at least on kick returns. As his receptions went up his punt return numbers dropped but his kick return numbers stayed pretty consistent. His punt return ypr are all over the place.
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Sparano loves to squeeze extra production out of under performing players so to me, with Ted Ginn they should decide if they want Ginn the Wr or Ginn the all around weapon, if Ginn the Wr is more important to them than they probably should pull him off of ST duty.



    Well, I think Ginn is the one player that Sparano has been happy with improvement in one area of their game, they wanted the fmr #1 pick to play better at Wr and Ginn has, the next question is whether or not they say "Yr 2 Ginn, you can play Wr now work on returning kicks better"

    Which I'd tend to doubt happening as the implication is Ginn was not putting 100% into returning kicks, I do find it odd that Ginn could regress on ST and Sparano never called him out on it.

    Ginn was a pro bowl alternate.

    The ideal, goofball player to put back there returning kicks is...Jason Allen...sounds stoopid "but" he's big, fast and fearless and semi on the bubble..
     
  35. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Check out Leon Washington's numbers:

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WashLe00.htm

    06/ 79 yds and 97 yds
    07/ 183 yds on 20 punt returns and 1293 yds on kick returns on 47 returns
    08/ 303 yds on 29 returns and 1231 yds on 42 returns

    Improvement every year, and 42 returns for 1231 yds compared to 697 on 34 for Ginn, Ginn and Leon Washington were fairly even in 07, in 08 Washington advanced and Ginn did not, and the number of attempts are similiar even with Bess added to Ginn's 08 punt return totals and Washington still wins the head to head comparison.
     
  36. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    what a load of garbage!!! how many WRs do you know that produced 1,500 total yards last year, let alone 2,000? I'm getting annoyed with the attacks on Ginn, and other players on this team. Ginn's production as a WR doubled from 07 to 08. Finding a way to say that... "Ted Ginn simply underperformed massively last season"...is simply uncalled for.
     
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  37. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    i have been a big negative nancy towards ginn.....and for my own good, i sat down, watched some games from last season, and some highlights of ted......and ill be honest. hes good. and i have been negative because of where he was drafted instead of realizing how much hes been a model teamate and hard worker, keeping quiet, putting his head down, and working on getting better.

    i am very excited to see ginn progress even more this up coming season. the good thing with bess and camarillo being more of a house hold name than last season.....they will get some defenses setting up schemes to stop them, hopefully opening up things for teddy.....

    also throw in that hes been in this offense with penny, building on their chemistry, i am super ****ing excited for ginn to do good things for the miami dolphins this season, and years to come.....

    gather around children.....sick is no more.....a ginn hater.....he can do some great things for us....hes a dolphin....its time i start backing him up.

    and padre, honestly....i agree i want him returning kicks, he is a dangerous mofo back there.....but i think griddles said it right....i would take ginn lighting it up for the offense and lacking on ST's any day!!!!
     
  38. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    Before anyone hates on Ginn for his production in his first two years....go ahead and try to guess who each of these WRs are based on their first two years of production.


    Year 1: 10 rec, 154 yds, 0 tds
    Year 2: 54 rec, 872 yds, 3 tds
    Steve Smith


    Year 1: 27 rec, 345 yds, 0 tds
    Year 2: 49 rec, 716 yds, 4 tds
    Reggie Wayne


    Year 1: 34 rec, 420 yds, 2 tds
    Year 2: 56 rec, 790 yds, 2 tds
    Ted Ginn


    Year 1: 3 rec, 31 yds, 1 td
    Year 2: 21 rec, 322 yds, 1 td
    Donald Driver


    Year 1: 22 rec, 370 yds, 1 td
    Year 2: 59 rec, 868 yds, 7 tds
    Laveranues Coles


    Year 1: 29 rec, 446 yds, 3 tds
    Year 2: 30 rec, 506 yds, 0 tds
    Roddy White


    Year 1: 21 rec, 228 yds, 0 tds
    Year 2: 41 rec, 492 yds, 1 td
    T.J. Houshmandzadeh


    Year 1: 0
    Year 2: 0
    Year 3: 29 rec, 434 yds, 0 tds
    Year 4: 67 rec, 687 yds, 1 td
    Wes Welker
     
  39. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    welcome to GinnHeaven!!
     
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  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ginn did underperform as a offensive weapon last season Gish, he doubled his recieving totals which is great, if he played at 07 levels in the return game he would have outgained Leon Washington, a pro bowler.

    Instead he came up about 300 yds short of his 07 level, which is either a positive or a negative, a positive in the sense there is clear room for more production, a negative in that Ginn may not want to handle return duties anymore.

    If Ginn doesn't want to return kicks, we must find a returner who can recapture those 600 yds, a returner who has over 1,400 yds in kick off and punt returns is doing a fantastic job.

    Ginn could be that guy for us.
     

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