1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ted Ginn was less of a weapon in 2008

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Aug 14, 2009.

Tags:
  1. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

    19,893
    9,750
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Over Yonder
    Please find me a list of WRs who have produced 3500 total yards in the last 2 seasons combined, and then tell me that Ginn is under-producing. The bottom line is that Ginn is far more valuable as a WR than as a KR/PR. It's really pointless to ask Ginn to do more as a WR, and then demand that he contribute fulltime as a KR also. You cant have the best of both worlds. You don't see Steve Smith returning kicks anymore. Is he underproducing as well?
     
    Stitches likes this.
  2. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

    19,893
    9,750
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Over Yonder
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZZjE9hxijM"]YouTube - Ted Ginn Jr 2008 Highlights[/ame]
     
    BuckeyeKing likes this.
  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Why limit it to Wr only? I already listed Leon Washington's stats.

    As for Steve Smith, when was the last time the Panthers either won a playoff game, or had back to back winning seasons?
     
  4. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    must step up as a WR & do what he does best as a premier kick return specialist
    :theman:NOW!
     
  5. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    When has he ever said he doesn't want to return the ball? Seriously, this is ridiculous.
     
    GISH and Firesole like this.
  6. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    disagree: he will return kicks & do it well, or parish :yes:
    he will become an excellent WR, threatening defenses with his speed, or be traded
    GinnJr has had sufficient time to figure it out.:deadhorse: he is our Hester unfulfilled, no more excuses
    just do it:up:
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Why did he stop returning punts, and why did he head out of bounds on kickoffs?

    What do you suppose would happen if Ted Ginn flat out told HC Sparano he did not want to do that job anymore?


    I find it absurd that the numbers don't lie, yet folks wish to make this some sort of personal thing in which I don't care for Ted Ginn.

    I love Ginn the player for the Dolphins, I have high expectations for him, if we wish to defeat the Patriots this season Ted Ginn can be a big help in doing that by returning to form on Special Teams.
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    That would be a huge help imho, and it's not that Ginn has to reinvent himself, he has already shown just how good he can be as a kick returner.

    The way I see it, Ginn could be one of the reasons at the very least we split with the Patsies this season, Belicheck cannot scheme away Ginn's return ability and either has to squibb kick and give up field position, or kick off to Ginn and take their chances on Ginn taking one to the house.

    He is the only guy on the roster that has proven he can do that, week in and week out, why not expect it of him?

    And before Bro Gish accuses me of being negative on Ted Ginn, I dropped 80 bucks on autographed Ted Ginn "G"'s from his rookie year game worn jersey, I really do like him as a player, but imho phinfans are too satisfied with his improvement as a Wr and are overlooking what Ginn can do on kick returns for us.

    He made the pro bowl as kick returner for pete's sake, he is pro, he can do both things.
     
  9. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    Hester did worse at PRs last year, does that mean he didn't want to do it? Josh Cribbs had his numbers down across the board, does that mean he didn't want to be the returner?

    Plenty of ****ing returners go out of bounds on kickoffs.
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    And fumble 3 times over not fumbling at all the previous season?

    Think about it Stitches, Ginn went from p bowl alternate as a returner to losing both return jobs, he was replaced with bess and cobbs, why?

    And Leon Washington's yardage curve has went upwards since 07, why can't Ted Ginn's?
     
  11. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitSt01.htm

    Steve Smith's return #'s were down across the board from his rookie year (when he was a pro bowler), guess he didn't want to do returns any more either. :rolleyes:
     
  12. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

    19,893
    9,750
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Over Yonder
    Leon Washington is a backup RB. Ted Ginn is the Dolphins #1 WR. Not many teams use their #1 WR as a fulltime return man.

    What does the Panthers playoff record have to do with Steve Smith returning kicks? Are you saying that if he were returning every kickoff, then they would have won the Super Bowl? He likely would have just gotten injured more often. You can't argue that Steve Smith isn't a top contributor for the Panthers. He has been the top target for a long time now. The facts are that he and Ginn's careers have mirrored to this point. I see a lot of similarities in the two. Steve Smith has a hunger and drive like none other, and I'm starting to see some of that in Ginn as well.
     
    SICK likes this.
  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    And Leon Washington's were up from his rookie season.

    Why was Ginn pulled from returning kick offs and punts Stitches? And replaced with D Bess and P Cobbs?
     
  14. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    Wow, 2 years of data to make up a yardage curve, awesome.

    And Washington actually got worse from 07 to 08 in KRs.
     
  15. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    He was also a garbage returner as a rookie.

    They had nowhere to go but up.



    I don't know why Ginn was pulled off, I'm not in the meetings where those decisions are made. I'd guess they took him off because they wanted him to focus on bettering his craft as a WR without worrying about return duties. Notice in important situations they put him back there though. Wonder why that was?
     
    Nappy Roots likes this.
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Then keep him off the ST return unit and replace him with someone who does a better job as Ginn really underperformed as a returner last season.



    The Panthers are my local team, I've watched Steve Smith since he was a Rook, and when the panther's were good, he was a threat on every return, once they pulled him off that unit the ST unit has never been as good as it was, and they have not won a playoff game since the 04 SB year.

    Causation=Correlation?

    Maybe, perhaps HC Fox is too cautious with his players now.

    I think instead of looking at players through a straw of ""he is only a Wr now" guys like Ginn and Smith should be looked at as weapons in every offensive phase of the game.
     
  17. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    if he has lost his ability to return kicks or no longer wants to return kicks, then he is no longer the man we drafted & the promise has been broken. if that is the case, we should reconstruct his contract to reflect the new reality or trade him (before the secret get's onto the open market) we can buy a Franchise WR when it becomes a priority to do so.
    having said that:
    I believe he is the ReturnSpecialist we need in 2009 (& will continue progressing as a WR) while consistently moving the ball deep into the opposing teams territory on SpecialTeams.
    Keep the Promise:yes:
     
  18. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrayMe00.htm

    Boy Mel Gray was a garbage returner, for a 2 year span following his rookie year his averages were down across the board.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MeggDa00.htm

    Dave Meggett's PR average dropped two years in a row after his rookie year. His KR average wnet up slightly in year 2, but in year 3 was below his average as a rookie. Man, he must've hated returning the ball.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MitcBr00.htm
    All time returner Brian Mitchell's PR average went down from year 2-4, and his KR average dipped from his rookie year to sophomore year. Then in his 3rd year it went up a yard, only to have it drop back to rookie levels in year 4. He must have not wanted to do returns any more at that point.
     
  19. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    In return average, in total yards he was over 2,300, his punt return yardage went upwards from 183 to 303, and he gained a yard per return on average.

    And he made first team all pro in 2008, his 2337 yds led the NFL.
     
  20. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    Yet he was worse at KRs in 2008.
     
  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Please, Ginn not only has been outperformed in his kick return yardage by a 4th round pick, he was so poor he was pulled off of the return duties.

    Dante Hall and Leon Washington both had upward curves, anecdotal stats can be brought out by the bushel, the fact remains, Ginn has been outplayed by Leon Washington.
     
  22. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    Keep the Promise.
     
  23. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    So my stats are anecdotal but the Leon Washington and Dante Hall stats are not? Awesome. :up:
     
  24. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

    19,893
    9,750
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Over Yonder
    hester unfullfilled? so Devin Hester is now the ideal #1 WR in the NFL?

    Ted Ginn Career Totals:
    90 rec, 1210 yards, 4 tds
    9 rushes, 76 yards, 2 tds

    Devin Hester Career Totals:

    71 rec, 964 yards, 5 tds
    13 rushes, 51 yards, 0 tds

    Ginn has 27% more recpetions
    Ginn has 26% more yards
    Ginn has 20% more touchdowns
    Ginn has 115% more yards per carry

    Maybe Hester should be trying to live up to Ginn....

    In the time span that Hester has been playing WR...Hester has taken 6 kicks to the house. Ginn has taken 1, and had 3 others called back for holding. Since Hester is obviously a more proven KR because his team doesn't hold people, why is he no longer returning kicks? It's because they value him more in the passing game, and the risk outweighs the reward of having him play both roles.
     
    BuckeyeKing and Stitches like this.
  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Leon Washington is in our division and currently playing.

    Let me ask you Stitches, why shouldn't fans expect Ted Ginn to be the guy from 2007 in kick returns? He's already proven he is ( or was) a weapon on ST.
     
  26. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    Because #1 WRs don't start at KR.


    And Steve Smith is currently playing (is actually the same position as Ginn), and I showed that his numbers dropped across the board too from his rookie year.
     
    padre31 likes this.
  27. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Fair enough, which is all I've been asking for, if Ginn is now a "#1 Wr" and really shouldn't return kicks anymore than who should in your opinion?

    My only complaint is if Ginn isn't returning kicks, then someone else should be who can do the job, 100yds plus in lost return yds and field position is no small thing to just overlook.
     
  28. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    Maybe Hartline, or Cobbs. Hell maybe Hilliard if he makes the 53.
     
  29. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

    2,000
    826
    113
    Oct 31, 2008
    palm beach county fl
    Special teams were not good overall and yes Ginn did not improve his return game last year.However if this area improves as a unit the return game will get better-you still need people to block and not get a penalty which also happens to often.
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Do you see any of those guys doing close to the job that Ginn did in 07?

    We ask Cobbs to do alot, Hartline..maybe...and Hilliard will be lucky to make the team in the first place.
     
  31. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    No, but Pro Bowl returners are not exactly easy to come by. Hell reigning Pro Bowl returners don't even typically repeat 2 years in a row.
     
  32. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

    19,893
    9,750
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Over Yonder

    Thats exactly what they did!!!!


    Ginn's total number of returns went from 87 in '07 to 39 in '08. Thats 55% less attempts. So there's your "missing" yards. His KR avg dropped by 2.2 yards, and his PR avg dropped by 1.9 yards. That's not a significant difference. That's called a yearly variance.


    After his rookie year, Steve Smith was a much bigger part of the passing game. It's just too big of a risk to have your best playmaking WR returning kickoffs.

    Like I said, Ted Ginn's first two years have mirrored Steve Smith's. Both in production, and utilization by the coaching staff.

    You can sit here and argue that Ginn should be a Pro Bowl returner AND a Pro Bowl WR. But at the end of the day you cant have both!

    Ted Ginn is Ted Ginn. He is not Leon Washington. He is not Dante Hall. He is not Devin Hester. He is a WR for the Miami Dolphins.
     
    Stitches likes this.
  33. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    GinnJr must keep the promise. :yes:
    I remember very well what was said when he was drafted.
    we need him to live up to the promise of his draft or go to free agency or the draft to acquire the Franchise WR.
    he was drafted as the elite ReturnSpecialist that would give us the edge & could in time be an excellent WR.
    GinnJr was supposed to give us the offensive edge through excellent field positioning playing SpecialTeams
    he was drafted #1 by Miami & paid accordingly, however, has failed to live up to his end of the bargain

    GinnJr must keep the promise. :up:
     
  34. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

    19,893
    9,750
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Over Yonder
    because Sparano has made the choice not to use him that way. End of story.
     
    Stitches likes this.
  35. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

    19,893
    9,750
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Over Yonder
    Ginn didnt enter the draft as a punt returner. Cameron was the idiot who said that. He is no longer here. Ginn is here, and he is a WR. Get over it.
     
    Stitches likes this.
  36. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    Yea, because franchise WRs always hit FA.
     
  37. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

    72,658
    35,312
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Charlotte NC
    cobbs is our 3rd RB and special team ace.......he can handle it.....its not like hes playing everydown on offense then making tackles on kickoffs and returning kicks......i dont see how you can think hes "asked to do alot"

    he just does multiple things, in small doses.....not that tough for a nfl player :up:
     
  38. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    GinnJr is what he is
    however
    he was drafted w/ the promise of being a primier ReturnSpecialist that would contribute immediately, giving us the advantage in field positioning, while developing into a viable NFL WR


    that was what went down, that is what was said :up:
     
  39. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    And he did contribute immediately as a returner, and has developed into a viable NFL WR. Sounds like the promise was fulfilled to me.
     
  40. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,173
    2,398
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    not
     

Share This Page