Welcome to the party 2 Socks, for a quick recap: Ted Ginn had 2,006 total yds in 2007 in 2008 he had 1,600 or so, in 07 Ginn was a pro bowl alternate as a kick returner, in 08 he was removed from kick returning duties to concentrate on being a better Wr and to be honest, poor performance at handling punts (3 fumbles) and returning kick offs (avg dipped 3 yds per attempt).
After seeing what he accomplished in college, I would have to disagree. I think Ginn should be out there in a rotation, let the kid take advantage of his abilities. Holding him back because he is the number one receiver is silly, Steve Smith was able to do it and excel, and if one looks at Ginn's career thus far, that is the player that he mirrors the most in terms of stats and progression IMO.
Thanks Padre....always enjoy chatting with everyone......seasons starting and I am psyched. Listening to the Bills/Bears in the background.....don't know what happened most of first half was blacked out by Directtv Just not sold on Ginn....I have respect for him...just not sold. Was not impressed to say the least in career kickoff returns....which is why I questioned the bow down as he was the Man....not even close in my opinion 95 returns 2090 yrds 22 yrds avg 0 td's punts 31 returns 284 yrds 9.2 avg 1 TD the interesting thing on the punts is one kick was for 87 yards ...the lone TD. Take away that and he averaged only 6.5 yards. Not very good IMO.
L2G...there you go being all reasonable and stuff, Ted Ginn is a precious flower who cannot be expected to do both jobs at a high level... Seriously though, if we replace Ginn on kick returns, we really should find somone to replace him who is just as potentially explosive, all respects to P Cobbs. Truth be told, Pat White makes sense as a KR/PR.
That is a fair assumption. But, very often is a poor way to judge his true talent in THIS league. Playing in college and playing in the NFL are two completely different things. How many players have we seen that have excelled in college only to be flop's or just average (Ginn) in the NFL??
As ive been pointing out, we were bad at Special Teams in 07 as well, we ranked 24th, and Ginn's yardage totals will be much better moving forward as he only had 450 yds in receptions in 07, a 1,000 yds in receptions and Ginn's number would be a gaudy 2,500k total yds.
I'm not a fan of Cobbs as a returnman or a RB, I'd prefer to see Ginn, Bess or White out there. Ginn has to refine his return game a bit, he isn't going to get away with some of the things that he did in college, he needs to find a seam and go. That can be fixed and I think he could be an excellent weapon for us. With White's ability in the open field, I wouldn't mind seeing him get a chance, we finally found a position for him to play.
Right, and while that's true, I think the rules are a bit different for a returnman than it would be for a regular positional player. Ginn needs to be more aggressive as a returner, like I said in the previous post, he needs to find a seam and run because he isn't going to get away with running to the sidelines and doubling back like he did in college, but the talent is definitely there.
Football purists would say White should not be put on returns, however if as the WC Qb he would only be involved in 4 or 5 plays it makes sense to get the ball into his hands as a playmaker. So far though, only Bess, Ginn and Williams have returned punts, I have no idea who has been handling kick offs.
1000 yards ...do you really think he has that in him. Remember Chris Berman....YAC.......I have heard every excuse in the book why he hasn't excelled. From the return teams sucked to Pennington can't get him the ball down field, which was proven he has and can. It's Yac that separate the average from the best and I'm afraid that due to his size he will always be average. Don't get me wrong I like Ginn....just my honest opinion
Ginn definitely has talent. No one can take that away from him. I think due to his size, (he is a small guy) and his inability to get any YAC will keep him average at best. Additionally he was unable to get anything on returns because at the meer sight of contact he is on the ground.....Yards after the catch is the key in the NFL. This is one reason why the big strong receivers excel. Line him up and kick the ball to him. His speed allows him to get about 20 yards upfield before the first wave gets to him....the stats don't lie.
I hear ya, and that is one of points of the discussion, "if" Ginn is really good, returning kicks and running routes is something that he should be able to handle. A 1,000 yd season from Ted Ginn...yeah, I can but that, our offense does spread the ball around though, but 1,000 yds is like 60 yds a game or so, Ginn should be able to manage that unless he draws #1 cb all the time. And if does draw the Ashmougha's and Samual's, he can then perform in the return game. To me, Ginn almost has to do that to make himself a real weapon.
See this is exactly my point, 60 yards a game. Now don't get me wrong but receivers such as, Terrell Owens, Brandon Marshall, Randy Moss, Donald Driver, Hinds Ward, Derrick Mason, Anquan Boldon, Santana Moss, Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne, Wes Welker, Antonio Bryant, Craig Jennings, Calvin Johnson, Roddie white, Steve Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, and the one and only Andre Johnson draw the #1 corner every single play and they manage......what's up with Ginn?????? 60 yards
Amazing, Sparano has said he will keep no Specialists only, he has to have a vision for them at a starting position, what does that mean to you?
And Hester never fumbled? It comes with the job. I myself will accept the fumbles if he takes a few to the house, or gives good field position most of the time. In 06' Hester fumbled 8 times in punt and kick returns. In 07' he fumbled 7 times. It's a risk reward thing.
Granted, but think about that in the context of this thread 2 socks, a mediocre kick returner and kick coverage unit costs much more than 60yds per game.
Well thats too bad for him, because you won't get a dangerous returner without the risk of them fumbling a few. It just happens.
It means he wants players with potential on the team. Just because you aren't a person who does only STs, doesn't mean Sparano doesn't want pro-bowl caliber special teamers.
No it won't... And that is where I diverge from Sparano on this, fumbles happen, in sparano's view he would rather take the reduced production in favor of a sure handed catch and small run.
I like the threat of the homerun, sometimes you strikeout, but when you connect it sure is nice to see. I don't like the sure catch small run stuff. I have faith in the defense that if something bad happens, they will do their job 9 times out of 10.
Terrell Owens 1st 1K season came in his 3rd year, while working across Jerry Rice Donald Driver's 1st 1k season came in year 4, while working across from Terry Glenn w/a hall of fame QB. Hines Ward first 1,000 season came in year 4, while working across from Plaxico Burress. Derrick Mason's 1st 1,000 season came in year 5. Santana Moss' first 1,000 yard season came in year 3. Vincent Jackson's 1st 1,000 yard season came in year 4. Reggie Wayne's 1st 1,000 yard season came in year 4, while having Marvin Harrison across from him and Peyton Manning at QB. Wes Welker's 1st 1,000 yard season came in year 4, with Randy Moss across from him and being covered by anything but the #1 and #2 CBs. Antonio Bryant's first 1,000 yard season came in year 4. Greg Jennings' (not Craig) 1st 1,000 season came in year 3, with Donald Driver lining up across from him. Roddy White's 1st 1,000 yard season came in year 3. Steve Smith's 1st 1,000 yard season came in year 3, with former pro-bowler Muhsin Muhammed lining up across from him. Before you question Ginn and ask him to live up to the billing of most of these WRs, how about giving him just as long to prove himself?
so when the season is over you will eat crow!!!!!! Care to make a little friendly wager??????? season tickets next year if I am wrong....if I'm right I'll give you my address on where to mail them...... I additionally think we should Trade Ronnie Brown for Brandon Marshall.....see a trend in your own stats So you think because you don't like what my opinion is that I should wait till the end of next year to form an opinion???? Wouldn't that be two sided????? So why bother to even discuss anything????
I must've missed where I said Ginn would get 1,000 yards in that post. I was showing that you are judging him unfairly. And a lot of good season tickets would do me when I live over 12 hours from Miami.
REalistically though, a player is going to take a yr or two to shine on ST, if they cannot also cut it as a everydown type of player they won't be here long enough Stitches. Look at Jason Allen, he is a top notch gunner now, but he is on the bubble as is Erik Walden, those two have loads of ST potential.
surely u jest?...;p If there's ONE thing holding this guy back it's a lack of toughness....he plays scared. The day u see this kid decide that he really wants to be a football player and strap it up and go out there ready to get dirty, then you'll see him take the next step. Until then he'll just use the talent he has to coast thru his career as an average WR.
Not at all. Ginn isn't a smashmouth player who will run over the defender (not many WR's are), but to say that he plays scared or can't take a hit is silly. If you want to fault him for struggling at times to get off the LOS, then I could understand, but to say that he isn't tough is unfair criticism IMO. I think he catches too much guff from people for stepping out of bounds on that play, but all players do it throughout their career, I don't know of any player that hasn't done it at one point or another.
Exactly, the old "It is better to live and fight another day than to die defending the undefendable."
Thats completely false. He's never been afraid to expose his body going up for a catch, or to try and squeeze through I tight spot on a screen pass. Just because he went out of bounds (correctly) a couple times doesnt make him soft.
It's not silly at all...the guy visibly shies away from contact and that's exactly why he fizzled as a KR. He lacks the b*lls to run towards the point of contact. And I mean how many times have we seen him go down easily in the middle of the field? I've seen a few occasions where the kid looked like he was about to slide like a QB does, just to avoid a good hit. He kinda just folds up and crumbles to the ground....and it's not very pretty. I'm not saying he needs to go out and kill himself.....but if there's one area that's holding him back, it's "toughness" JS
First of all, Ginn didn't fizzle as a KR, lets not forget that he had his share of returns called back due to stupid penalties. Add those up and he's statistically one of the better returnmen in the league. He was taken off of return duty by the coaching staff to preserve his body on offense. And since when has running in the open field meant that you had to initiate contact? WR's by nature are more elusive than they are physical, Ginn is no different. To expect him to take the Ronnie Brown approach and bowl over the defender is to ask him to do something that very few WR's are capable of or inclined to do. How many WR's, or any player for that matter, don't try to avoid a big hit? Football is a rough sport, knowing when to get out of the way shouldn't be seen as a weakness. I'd really like to see a clip of him getting ready to slide like a QB, because for the life of me I can't remember an instance of it happening. I think this is a case of "fan memory", where a player makes a play (positive or negative) that sticks in a fan's mind and it automatically becomes the "norm" for that player throughout his career. If you're looking for him to have the mentality of Wes Welker, you're going to be disappointed. If you're looking for him to be a jump ball endzone threat like Randy Moss, you're going to be disappointed. They are unique players, they are exceptions to the rule, not many players will run through a brick wall to make a catch (Welker) or jump over 3 defenders to easily one-hand the ball in the endzone (Moss). I think you're holding Ginn up to a standard that just doesn't exist for the majority of the WR's in the NFL.
So you're telling him to get lit up in the middle of the field just to show how manly he is? For all you know, Sparano is telling him to go down if he's going to get lit up... simply to avoid injury. Ginn isn't built like Brandon Marshall, he shouldn't be taking a lot of hits over the middle. Marvin Harrison did it, no one is *****ing about that. Nat Moore even admitted to doing it it, no one was *****ing about that. I think it's unreachable standards people place on Ginn which is why he has constant criticism.
I wouldn't blame Ginn for not taking the punishment, I will say he will not be as effective a player as he could be until he accepts he will be lit up every now and then. To his credit when he did duck out of bounds instead of picking up an extra two yards, he was ridden hard for doing so and it didn't happen again.
Well if he takes a hit over the middle and spends the season on IR instead of sliding like he probably should... we'll see how effective he is there...
