1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ten things that shocked or surprised me about the Dolphins' draft

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Big Red, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    1. Vontae Davis. I believed his character issues meant there was no way that Parcells and Ireland would draft him. Obviously it wasn't an issue for them and there's no denying that he is a very talented cornerback.

    2. Passing on Connor Barwin and Clint Sintim for Pat White. Well the wildcat is here to stay. I bet Ireland started paying more attention to White after we beat the Patriots in Week 3 last season. Every time some analyst mentioned Pat White and the wildcat our front office must have been like "shut up!" At first I didn't like the pick. I was very high on Barwin. However now that I've had time to think about it I believe our offense is going to be a lot more explosive.

    3. Trading back in the 2nd round and getting a another pick as well as Sean Smith. That was a nice surprise.

    4. Passing on Dorrell Scott for Patrick Turner. That being said I'm a big fan of Turner. They must have considered Scott to be a reach in the 3rd round.

    5. After passing on Scott the Dolphins passed on Vance Walker in the 5th and 6th round. Was all that talk about us wanting a nose tackle a smokescreen?

    6. Brian Hartline in the 4th round. I did NOT see that coming. Especially with Louis Murphy still on the board. Scott was a reach in the 3rd but Hartline wasn't a reach in the 4th? How is that possible? Clearly the Dolphins do not evaluate players the same way most analysts do. As I step back and look at it I do like Hartline's size. He's fast and quick. Plus he should be a standout on special teams.

    7. We didn't draft Don Carey. I thought he was a lock in the 6th round. It's a good thing we got Smith in the 2nd because the Browns snagged Carey four spots ahead of us. I wonder if we still would have taken him if they didn't.

    8. Passing on Michael Hamlin for Chris Clemons. By all accounts Hamlin was rated higher. Personally I believe we made the right call.

    9. J.D. Folsom from Weber State. Who? What? I never heard of the guy. He must be pretty good if they took him instead of Frantz Joseph.

    10. Trading away our second 7th round pick instead of drafting Ian Johnson, Brock Bolen, Andy Kemp, Frantz Joseph, Lee Robinson, or Graham Gano. I can't believe none of those guys were rated high enough on our board. They've all been signed as undrafted free agents.
     
    Bpk and MrClean like this.
  2. late again

    late again Senior Member

    9,397
    2,104
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    Regarding the NT situation. I believe they went into the draft hoping to pick a guy up.
    However I would guess that they considered guys like Dorrell Scott and Vance Walker to be no better than Soliai or Joe Cohen.
    The only thing that really shocked me was passing on LBs until Folsom. They (along with every other team) obviously didn't think so much of Sidbury, as he was sitting there for round after round. I really thought that one of those multitude of OLBs available would have been selected by us. After all of those guys projected early went elsewhere I thought ok maybe they're looking at someone like Jasper Brinkley.....nope....not him either.
    So....
    Are they thinking strongly of signing JT?
    Are they that confident in Wake?
    Do they believe that much in Roth progress?
    Or any combination of the above?
    I'm not ready to criticize yet. Early on the FO was blasted by some for not getting in on the FA CB signing frenzy. Only to watch us go early and often in the draft. I'm sure they're on top of this as well.
     
  3. Agua

    Agua Reality: Try It!

    5,257
    1,725
    113
    Apr 28, 2008
    On the Vontae Davis character thing: it seems that ostensibly, the "character" problem with Davis was his being so physically talented, he towered over his peers and was inconsistent because he at time wouldn't follow direction.

    I think we have a coaching staff that is probably about as good a place for the kid to land and get him through this "coast on my talent" approach he apparently took, at least occasionally, in college.
     
  4. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

    39,245
    10,681
    0
    Dec 2, 2007
    Miami FL
    good read
     
    Big Red likes this.
  5. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I never heard much from the team to indicate they wanted a NT. There was talk from the fans and media, but none of it was ever even attributed to team sources. We had a little action with the invites but not nearly as much as most other positions. By draft time I was thinking that a NT was very unlikely, although I can't say I was happy about it.
     
    Bpk and cnc66 like this.
  6. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

    5,790
    2,699
    113
    May 8, 2008
    Well, if the NT talk was a smokescreen then it worked because the Falcons took Peria Jerry with their first round pick. A good pick at the time, certainly not a reach, but still it may have forced their hand.
     
  7. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    i read somewhere parcells has wanted pat white since last fall.

    so it has been a while in the making and due diligence was taken.
     
    Big Red likes this.
  8. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

    31,582
    17,137
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    That was Casserly's comments that George brought up yesterday right??
     
  9. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    could be, i can't remember.
     
  10. nighttrain76

    nighttrain76 New Member

    46
    30
    0
    Dec 17, 2007
    Oklahoma
    I hate to say this but I think that the Dolphins wanted Ron Brace and was hoping to maybe get Butler with the 2b pick. After the cheaters picked both of them, then Pat White was the highest on their board. Yea, they could have gave up a 5th or 6th round pick to move up 5 spots to get Brace or Butler but that isn't this F.O. style. I wish we would have got Brace but after him, who was worthy of a 4th or 5th round pick?? Face it guys, this F.O. has a way of doing things and they don't care about public perception. This was a weak draft as far as the big mean guys like last year. This year was about some skill players but still with some height & size. Next year will be back to the mean big boys. Oh yea, this is only year 2 of this F.O. plan. Do we have any reason to doubt them so far??? :up:
     
  11. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

    11,035
    4,419
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Pat White over Sintim and Barwin. I guess that means Cameron Wake is going to be used heavily this season. I like that.
     
  12. The Aqua Crush

    The Aqua Crush New Member

    6,152
    1,600
    0
    Jun 15, 2008
    Calgary Alberta Canada
    Good stuff Big Red.

    I think Turner will be good. Esp. with Chad throwing accurate passes to him early in his career. Should help the rookie with early confidence.

    I really like that Hartline could see immediate time on special teams, rather than taking a depth prospect to sit behind a bunch of D line or linebackers all season. At least this way we can upgrade the talent and speed of our special teams right now, which in my opinion was a big flaw with our team last year. More play makers who can regularily play special teams while their young the better. That in itself makes the hartline pick not look so bad.
     
    Big Red likes this.
  13. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    You might be right. I kept assuming that Scott or Walker would be an upgrade but maybe they wouldn't be.

    I didn't think that much of Sidbury either. Brinkley was less than spectator his senior season but his recovery from injury could have been a big reason for that. The Vikings got a sleeper for sure.

    I really hope they're thinking strongly of signing JT. Seems like a no-brainer.

    Judging from the draft they appear to be very confident in Wake.

    I'm not ready to criticize yet either. I was shocked and surprised because I was expecting a CB, WR, OLB, and NT among our first four picks but I can't say I'm really disappointed. We got a couple of great corners. We didn't land a #1 wideout necessarily but I think our corps as whole got a whole lot better. Wake was obviously how we addressed OLB so hopefully that works out. The only concern I have is NT. As long as Ferguson stays healthy we'll be all right.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  14. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    Absolutely. Davis should respond very well to our coaching staff.
     
  15. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    Good point. This is from Ireland's pre-draft presser.

    http://mia.scout.com/2/853367.html

    He never actually says the Dolphins are looking for a nose tackle. Still I doubt we would have passed on B.J. Raji if he was still on the board when we picked.

    How are you doing by the way dude? You must have blown a gasket when we drafted two cornerbacks on day one. :lol:
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Hartline over Murphy b/c we needed a physical threat across the middle to help maintain a balanced, dynamic offense. That's not Murphy. LOL. Remember, we want to control the ball... not get into shootouts. ;)

    Clemons over Hamlin b/c we don't need a starting Safety for a few years and Clemons will contribute more in nickel and ST than Hamlin.
     
  17. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I loved the Sean Smith pick but the Davis pick set me to drinking. :cry:

    IMO he's Jason Allen part two. Great athletes who make too many mental errors. All you have to do is replace Allen's injury concerns with Davis' character concerns and they're the same player.
     
  18. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    Love Patrick Turner! I don't know if he's better than Juaquin Iglesias and Louis Murphy but then I don't know what Parcells and Ireland know. He certainly was impressive last season at USC as well as the Senior Bowl.

    You have to figure that Hartline's stock was rising. Still he seems like a reach. However when you consider that the vast majority of 4th round picks don't ever start and many don't even stick then a special teams standout with the potential to develop into a contributing wideout doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

    Just look at a our recent history of 4th round picks.

    2008 - Shawn Murphy
    2007 - Paul Soliai
    2006 - Joe Toledo
    2005 - Travis Daniels
    2004 - Will Poole

    Look at Jimmy Johnson's 4th round picks.

    1998 - Lorenzo Bromell
    1997 - Jerome Daniels
    1998 - Kirk Pointer and Stanley Pritchett

    Bromell and Pritchett were all right but I don't even remember Daniels or Pointer. Even Don Shula struggled in the 4th round.

    1994 - Ronnie Woolfork
    1988 - Greg Johnson
    1982 - Charles Bowser
    1981 - Sam Greene and Brad Wright
    1980 - Elmer Bailey
    1979 - Steve Howell

    Not exactly household names. I say if you get a productive player in the 4th round then you've done all right.
     
  19. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    If Louis Murphy turns into a Pro Bowl wideout for the Raiders then I would have preferred him. He has that potential. That being said I believe you're exactly right. Hartline and Clemons are pieces of the puzzle.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  20. NolePhin

    NolePhin Look out for D-Bess

    1,007
    651
    0
    Apr 27, 2009
    Davie, FL
    I have a feeling Vontae will be humbled real quick when he gets smoked by big time NFL receivers. T.O. twice, Moss twice, not to mention Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, ect...

    And of course our coaching staff will definitely straighten out his conduct issues.
     
  21. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    Let me attempt to make you feel better.

    Vontae Davis is nothing like Jason Allen. Allen got caught between two positions. Safety and corner. Davis is a pure cornerback all the way. Plus Allen is not considered the smartest player. Davis scored very high on his Wonderlic. Allen was overdrafted. Davis has top ten talent by all accounts. The only reason he slid is because of off-field issues. If Sparano and our coaches get his head screwed on right then we have the makings of a Pro Bowl caliber cornerback.

    Davis doesn't remind me of Jason Allen in the least. He kind of reminds me of Deion Sanders a little bit. By that I mean Deion got by mostly on talent in college and he was often accused of having a poor attitude, sleeping in team meetings, and not always putting the team first. However he was only of the greatest cornerbacks ever.
     
  22. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
  23. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    Thank you for your efforts but I think the alcohol was more effective. :yes:

    I'm not sure that I agree that Davis has a high football IQ. He just has too many mental lapses in coverage. I worry about him in a quarters coverage always running up to the flats and getting burnt over the top. He just never seemed to understand, what I considered the relatively simple concept of "take the deeper receiver". He was fine covering deep when he had 1 WR in his zone but with 2 WRs he seemed fixated on the short route. Illinois played a lot of cover two so there was S help but he won't have that in quarters.

    I do think he's a slightly better athlete than Allen but I don't think he's good enough to get by on just that. He's going to have to work on his technique and he's going to have to understand his defensive assignments better. That's only a concern b/c there have been more than a few reports that he didn't/wouldn't do that in college.

    Here are my notes from when I watched him play. This was made during the season, way before I heard any scouting reports on the kid.

    Big CB, poor technique, does not read routes well, can be turned around by receivers, very aggressive in run support, solid tackler, reads passes to the flats quickly, sloppy backpedal, has elite speed, good closing speed, very athletic, shows good hands, can track the ball in the air and win a jump ball.

    Overall, I give him a 2nd or 3rd round grade. Superior athlete, doesn't seem to be instinctual or to have a high football IQ. Gets by on athleticism.
     
    Bpk and Big Red like this.
  24. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

    31,582
    17,137
    0
    Nov 23, 2007
    I'm enjoying this exchange, thanks fellas
     
  25. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    Hilarious. :lol:

    If you gave Davis a 2nd or 3rd round grade based on his on-the-field performance than you would definitely be in the minority in that respect. Say what you about his attitude or ego but teams went out of their way to avoid him. Whenever I watched Illinois play they almost never threw in Vontae Davis' direction. I was trying to evaluate him and found it very frustrating because the wideout he was covering was rarely targeted.

    Plus he will have safety help in quarters coverage from time to time. In a passing situation if the slot receiver runs a short route the safety is supposed to give the corner help over the top.
     
  26. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    Jenkins was the only CB I gave a first round grade to in this draft. I thought Butler was the second highest rated CB but was a poor fit for us.

    Over the top S help is dependent on several things. The base quarters coverage though gives outside deep responsibility to the CB. My concern is more when the outside WR runs a short route and the slot, TE or RB runs a wheel. That would be on him.
     
    Bpk, cnc66 and Big Red like this.
  27. Onehondo

    Onehondo Senior Member Club Member

    2,671
    879
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Chesapeake, Virginia
    This was Scout.coms opinion of Vontae Davis:

    5-11, 203
    Pre-Combine Position Rank: 4
    Post-Combine Skinny: This was where he was supposed to shine, and he did. The game tape isn't going to help him so he needed to blow up the Combine, and he came in under 4.5 in the 40 and was tremendously quick in the short drills. And then there were the guns. The guy looked like a serious physical specimen.
    Positives: Elite athlete. Possibly the best in the draft … Tremendous speed … Looks the part. Has all the tools and all the skills.
    Negatives: Does he really want to play? Mediocre junior year … Character questions. Not a hard worker … Doesn’t play up to his athleticism 100% of the time.
    http://cfn.scout.com/2/841036.html

    If Parcels and Sparano can light a fire under him he may be just what we needed.
     
  28. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

    2,354
    1,402
    113
    Jan 4, 2008
    If he is not a hard worker NOW I doubt anyone in the world will change him.I just hope he can get by with his athletic ability since it seems like he will do what he wants to do and nothing more.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  29. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

    1,834
    513
    113
    Jan 3, 2008
    North Carolina
    i think that is a problem for many 'top' college players though ... living off of talent vice IQ .... they don't learn that initially, well - because they don't have to ...

    the problem with a Jason Allen, is that he can't learn it -- not because he doesn't want to ... but he is just too stupid.

    Davis conversely, doesn't seem to have that challenge ... now it is up to Bowles and CO to school him up -- of course, he has to be willing to receive the information ... but under this regime, i don't see that as a problem.

    but also could be the reason we spent 2b on Smith ... as both an insurance policy and a potential replacement for W. Allen next year.
     
  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    I agree with what you said.... adding to it that Smith also represents competition for Davis. I don't think Vontae like the time he spent on the bench and will probably fight a little harder with Sean to push him. Vice versa goes for Smith.
     
  31. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I don't agree that Allen can't learn it. Obviously he's not bright but with enough reps his job is simple enough that he'll be able to play on instinct. I don't know if it will happen here but I do think he'll eventually be a solid starter.

    I think back to Testeverde who was/is dumb as a box of rocks. Even he, eventually, came to be known as a savvy veteran. He also had superior physical gifts. Those gifts allowed him to hang around long enough to get the reps in. If he can can eventually get there then most anybody with that much physical ability and a willingness to work hard can.
     
  32. Big Red

    Big Red Long Lasting Freshness

    2,541
    808
    0
    Oct 15, 2008
    Los Angeles, CA
    The more I think about it the more Pat White makes a lot of sense.

    Imagine you're Jeff Ireland. Your team just had one of the most dramatic turnarounds in the history of the NFL going from 1-15 to 11-5. A big component of that was the Wildcat. That was the main reason we beat the Pats in Week 3 and that victory set the tone for the rest of the season.

    Now what do you do? Do you abandon the Wildcat? It was a nice gimmick but now we go back to a more traditional offense? Or...

    Do you take it to the next level by drafting Pat White?
     

Share This Page