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The Good and the Bad...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Paul 13, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I noted your post. And if you'll note my post, the statement I took issue with was talking about how Jason Taylor didn't play, and implying that this may have been responsible for the defense's performance.

    So you don't believe that first string defenses can stop well-established first string offenses in preseason unless they game plan for them? Should I bring up examples of when first string defenses did exactly that?
     
  2. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Ok, I think it's safe to say our best players on defense didn't play as long as their best players on offense. Good?

    My point was our pitiful offense might of hung onto the ball longer (and def would of given ATL's less opportunities) if we played all our starters and Fasano doesn't make that boneheaded juggle.
     
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  3. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    We see what we want and ignore what we don't want to see.

    4/8

    1 - Drop by Fasano INT. Catchable ball.
    2 - 5 yards to Bess
    3 - Incomplete with miscue between Henne and Hartline
    4 - Bad throw by Henne to Bess. Picked by Grimes who I've seen a lot of. He's a damn good corner.
    5 - Sidesteps blitz. Throws strike to Bess and gets hit. Drop by Bess
    Henne pulls a Vince Young impression here
    6 - Throw to the sideline. Great grab by Bess
    7 - Read the blitz here. Hit Thomas for a 25 yard gain
    8 - Great PA-Action pass hit Hartline for 44 yards TD.

    One bad throw out of 8. Three great ones (5, 7, 8). No Marshall. No Bush.
     
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  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Correct. Our best defensive players were off the field between 4 and 6 plays before they took their best players off the field.

    Question. Do you think Henne deserves any blame for that interception for throwing it behind Fasano?
     
  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Well, if that's how you evaluate it, then in your evaluations there would be a whole mess of college quarterbacks that should be great pros.
     
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  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It seems like most people that defend Chad Henne would like to pretend that ball placement is not a category that anyone should judge on a quarterback ever.
     
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  7. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    What are you talking about? I just sat down and watched all 8 throws. That's what happened. He had one terrible throw. Are you disputing something I said, if you are, tell me. Otherwise I don't see the point you're making.
     
  8. Third Man

    Third Man Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The only encouraging thing about the offense is that when you look at the other teams that also lacked continuity in one area or another on offense -- meaning either a new quarterback or a new coordinator -- they did even worse than we did in the first half.

    Seahawks: New coordinator and quarterback. No points in the first half.
    Broncos: New coordinator. Nine points in the first half.
    Cardinals: New quarterback. Seven points in the first half.
    Jaguars: New quarterback. Nine points in the first half.
    Bengals: New coordinator and quarterback. Three points in the first half.
    49ers: New coordinator/offensive system. Three points in the first half.

    Dolphins: New coordinator. Fourteen points in the first half.

    Now, is it any coincidence that that first list of teams are among the worst teams in the league that have played so far (and some might include the Dolphins in that group)? No, I don't think it is. The reason teams change their coordinators and their quarterbacks is because their previous coordinators and quarterbacks stunk. And when your offense stinks, it's hard to win. So there's some statistical bias there.

    But still, this is no normal preseason. And given the challenges of getting a new offense up and running, it certainly wasn't as bad as it could have been.

    The defense, on the other hand. There was no excusing that.
     
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  9. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I'm sure there have been times when established defenses stopped established offenses. There has also probably been as many times when established offenses were successful against established defenses. Talking about preseason, no game plan, etc. I don't believe it would be conclusive or absolute one way or the other. If you feel like digging up some examples, well please feel free to do so.

    Atlanta has a very good offense. We have a very good defense. If you want to believe how our defense played yesterday is a glaring testament to how they will play all season, well go ahead. I choose to believe not many complete conclusions can be drawn from opening week of preseason, just as a general rule. Which was the point I was trying to convey to PSG. Then you jumped into it with your "you can't be serious, JT would have stopped our defense from being a sieve?" Or some such statement. I choose to believe that 4 missing starters and/or key contributors could likely have an effect on team performance. But that alone wasn't the complete reason for how our team performed.
     
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  10. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Was it a perfect pass no, but was it a pass between 2 defenders and hit Fasano in the chest? Saw it many times and it should have been out in front a little more but it couldnt be a lead pass as the defender on the outside was closing, so no not a perfect pass but not a bad one either. Fasano has to make that catch. Blaming Henne is just subjective. Sorry that is my opinion.

    Like I said before blaming Henne for that int is through subjective eyes.

    Now the second Int, that is on Henne, now that I have seen it 3 times, no way you throw that there. Even wrong route, too much red in the area
     
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  11. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Sure, but that doesn't mean the majority of the error that caused the turn-over wasn't on Fasano.

    I'd like to see it again if anyone has a quick link. But from memory, it really wasn't that far behind Fasano, and yea, the degree definitely matters. If I remember, he got both hands on it without having to move very much.

    I think Henne could of put it another half yard further behind him and it still doesn't get INT unless Fasano pops it up perfectly for the db lol
     
  12. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The pass hit him square in the chest. It was not behind him.
     
  13. Phinatic425

    Phinatic425 MIA State of Mind

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    It's not that easy considering a lot of routes require the quarterback to anticipate the wr's cut so the ball is usually thrown before the cut is made. So the qb could throw the ball anticipating his wr to turn right but if the wr turns left then the ball will obviously not be completed and it isn't the qbs fault at all.

    No more excuses, but we should still rationalize things before we come to conclusions.
     
  14. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And it seems that people that hate Henne want to discount bad hands and timing routes as factors in why it isnt all the qb. Please stop talking down to people as if you are the teacher and we are the students
     
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  15. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Idk man, I just think that if anyone disagrees that the majority of the blame for the first INT should go to Fasano then yikes.
     
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  16. DolfanJake

    DolfanJake Banned

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    That too me was the worst in last nights game, and yes more disturbing than Henne. We know what Henne is, and its exactly what he showed last night ; up and down, one series pretty good, next one where can I throw the INT.....it is what he is. The running game when the 1sts were in against their 1sts was downright excrement. They cannot look like that going into the season. Big Jake we need you BADLY !!!
     
  17. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    That may be true in many cases, but not here. He did throw it right to the WR. The only problem was that the defender was between Henne and the WR and the ball wasn't thrown high enough. That wasn't a pass that was thrown to nowhere because the WR turned the wrong way. And I don't necessarily have a problem with his throwing it -- the WR was "NFL open." No, he wasn't completely all alone with no DBs in sight, but that rarely happens in the NFL. 'That was a completable pass, albeit a difficult one. If thrown better, i.e., over the defenders's reach, the pass would have been completed. But it was underthrown and got picked off.
     
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  18. Third Man

    Third Man Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That catch is routine for even a fairly poor NFL tight end.
     
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  19. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    That's how I saw it too. The 2nd one looked totally on Henne. Pass should have at least been thrown away. The one to Fasano, was totally the fault of Fasano, unless one wants to believe Henne should have known that was too tough a catch for him and just not thrown it. The pass was pretty short and thrown with a fair amount of velocity as I recall. Maybe Henne should have just said to himself, short hard pass, Fasano will pop it up in the air, likely int, better no throw. ;)
     
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  20. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Ck be condescending? Perish forbid! ;)
     
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  21. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    That is a routine catch for an average high school TE.
     
  22. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    The flaw in this argument is that, yes, he played against scrubs...but he also played WITH scrubs. Those guys surrounding him in that Offense are as much scrubs as the defenders playing against him.

    That's why I'd like to see Moore start next week, to see how he does against starters and playing alongside starters.
     
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  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    On the inside runs that kept getting stuffed, it seems they were all to the left. Just straight ahead power stuff. I don't recall us ever trying to run behind Carey and Colombo.
     
  24. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly if you throw teh second one it has to be too the sidelines where only Bess can catch it but would be a difficult catch. Realistically he should have seen the coverage rolled to the right and looked left and then got rid of it. There is where we see some of the locking on that he will need to show he can improve.

    Like LaVicka said on 760, if after week 3 vs TB and thses issues persist, unfortunately you may have to entertain that maybe Moore should be considered but after week 1 preseason and some good things, you have to let a couple weeks of preseason go buy before sounding the panic button.
     
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  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    [video=youtube;io8NNpff7Yg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io8NNpff7Yg[/video]

    Spears at 3:04, the Froman int, Q Spears dipped his shoulder inside, turned on the jets around the corner with a nice arm over and Froman saw him coming leading to the Int.

    Now what I really wanted to see from him was that first step burst, but it was a good move nonetheless.
     
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  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I think it means he won't be hiring you as a scout anytime soon. :lol:
     
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  27. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    And maybe Ck should. ;)
     
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  28. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    It was the first preseason game for Atlanta too. And they had a lockout too.

    But their starters played better than our starters. And not a little better...a lot.

    THAT'S
    concerning.

    But there were some good things to take away from the scrimmage; we found some help in the return game, if not in stopping returns; we saw a glimmer of hope at QB, and would be wise to explore that further; we saw the emergence of two players heretofore either unknown or underachievers, in Roberto Wallace and Jimmy Wilson; and we finally saw dividends from our high 2010 draft picks when Edds posted 6 tackles and a sack, and Odrick played a lot in the Falcons' backfield.

    All in all: First team O & D—very concerning; young up-and-comers—very exciting.
     
  29. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Yeah, but they played ALL of their starters. Marshall, Long, Bush and a few others never touched the field.
     
  30. FinsAreLife

    FinsAreLife Well-Known Member

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    There had been rumblings that in camp Henne looked more mobile in the pocket, he showed that last night.
     
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  31. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I think Henne looked rusty, but his feet were more agile and I saw him get on to a few guys for making mental errors. (False start and missing a block) These are good improvements.
     
  32. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck Club Member

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    That ball hit Fasano in the face mask. It wasn't perfect, but it was far from a bad pass.

    And I would counter that people first complained Henne would never throw the up for his receiver to go get - he was never aggressive enough in that manner - now he hits a guy in the face mask and it was too far behind him and is Henne's fault?

    I am guessing in the span of a game there are plenty of passes that look exactly like that one but are never discussed because they are caught.

    It was a terrible play by Fasano on an ok throw by Henne and we've over-analyzed it to the point that it is Henne's fault.
     
  33. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    I'd like to see Moore get some time eventually, but if Bush and Marshall are back then Henne needs to be in there with them against starting defenses as much as possible.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    1. The first pass to Fasano had poor ball placement. Yes, it should have been caught anyway. The mistake people often make is they take a play like this, and divide up the blame. A mistake is a mistake. Fasano made a mistake on a ball thrown behind him. Henne made a mistake throwing the ball behind him. That's two mistakes, not one. We're talking about a ball that literally only traveled 13 yards through the air. At that distance, an NFL quarterback's accuracy should be pinpoint. If you're going to throw with poor ball placement, you live with the consequences.

    2. The second throw was pretty good timing, better ball placement although still not perfect, at waist level where coaches preach front shoulder. With that particular coverage, a more aggressive quarterback probably would have played the Thomas/Gates route combination and thrown Gates on the dig underneath the safety. That's just my opinion. That was where the most open space was on the field.

    3. Hard to say who was at fault on the miscommunication.

    4. This was a well deserved interception. My biggest problem with Henne on play-action has always been his inability to quickly and accurately re-acquire the defense after turning his back toward them. This, IMO, was why he was literally 10x more likely to throw an interception last year on play-action than non-play-action (I actually did the numbers). This interception is just a vintage example of more of the same. The problem is the vision of the field. He's sort of damned if he does and damned if he doesn't in that if he throws the thing without hesitation, just trusting, then he could end up with an interception like the one against the Bengals where there were two or three defenders running with the deep receiver. But on the other hand, if he makes certain that he sees it before he throws it, he throws off the timing and you get interceptions like this. You notice on this play he comes out of his play-action and he burped the football like a baby before he threw it. That little bit of timing was the difference between an interception and a completed pass. Look below. The following snapshot is when Henne came out of his break and had the normal rhythm to throw this pass. He had his shoulders cocked and was ready to go.

    [​IMG]

    But he didn't throw it. He hesitates and that hesitation cost him. This is when he actually started to throw it, after he patted the ball.

    [​IMG]

    His hesitation not only gave that defensive back an extra 3 yards to get under the ball, it gave him the better part of a second to react to what Henne was doing.

    I've seen some attempts by people to take this interception and somehow qualify it, saying it wasn't bad because the defender just made a heck of a play, or because Henne was being aggressive, etc. It was poor execution and it led to an interception.

    5. This is really unfortunate, but it's another example of poor ball placement. First off, someone's got to recognize that free corner out there with nothing to do. I don't know if that's Henne or if that's Thomas, or maybe even Fasano. But someone's got to recognize that guy. So already we have the same kind of miscommunication as the Henne-Hartline deal above, to where we don't really know who is to blame. Henne does a fantastic job of getting ahead of this guy and scrambling to his right. No, you don't really expect this to be a sack, I think ideally you're looking for a starting quarterback that is going to make that outside corner blitzer miss exactly like Henne did. But either way Henne did a good job there. The problem is he follows it up with another throw that has poor ball placement. He had a guy screaming toward him, it's understandable. The ball hits Bess on the hands but it's really low and really far ahead of him and that's a difficult catch to make, so he didn't come down with it.

    6. This was a pretty good play. Options for throwing the ball were really not great. You have two outside receivers running streaks and even though Gates is burning right by his corner, the safety on his side was speeding over top of him right away. The safety by Hartline was a little more lax and Henne probably could have thrown him but it wouldn't have been the greatest percentage. The underneath slots were taken away, bad routes for that coverage. What Henne had that he probably should have taken was the underneath to Daniel Thomas who was covered by Coy Wire in man. I'm usually not a proponent of running out of the pocket like Henne did but in this case it worked at least as well as a well-placed (front shoulder) and executed throw to Daniel would have.

    7. Again I have to emphasize, ball placement. You take a look at this play versus the play Ryan Mallett threw against the Jaguars to Taylor Price where Price went on to gain like 50 yards after the catch, the difference is ball placement. So you can't tell me that ball placement doesn't matter or we should just toss it out of our evaluations. Bess probably had no business catching this ball. The thing was way high and ahead of him, he had to reach out with one hand. Yet, he'd created a good amount of separation from Dominique Franks and if Henne had achieved the same ball placement that Mallett did on the throw to Price, Bess is turning up the field for lots of extra YAC while Franks continues trailing from behind. How can anyone say this is a good throw?

    8. This was a great read of the blitz and a great throw. This is what good ball placement can do for you. He gets the outside shoulder so that Thomas can run through the catch and hit it to the sideline away from the defensive help. Without that ball placement, this play gains maybe 10 yards. With the ball placement, it gained like 25 yards because Thomas was able to outrun Coy Wire. There were two real options on the play, either Thomas in the flats or Bess in the flats. I have no problem with Henne choosing Thomas here.

    9. This was a good read and good throw for the TD. You look at the coverage before the snap, the spacing was just too tempting to hit Hartline on the vertical. The key was there was no hesitation. When the defensive back bit far more on that play-action than he had any business doing, he wasn't allowed to get back into the play by quarterback hesitation. People can talk about 2nd string this, 3rd string that, whatever. I focus on the fundamentals of execution. This was a fundamentally well-executed play from start to finish. It was the right read given the defensive coverage, it had the correct timing, and the ball was well placed so that Hartline could run under it.

    The problem with Henne's performance last night is really only about half of his plays were executed in a fundamentally sound manner on his part. Bad ball placement is bad ball placement. Bad timing is bad timing. Making the wrong read is making the wrong read.
     
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  35. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    If that's rusty then I'm impressed bc 2010 Henne:

    [​IMG]


    where as 2011 Henne:

    [​IMG]
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    OK, well...people can't even admit that Henne threw that pass behind Anthony Fasano so to me there's so much of a loss of objectivity going on around here that it's fruitless for me to even bother trying to give objective analysis.

    Peace out, people. Y'all can keep going on deluding yourselves about every play.
     
  37. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I never said I drew a complete conclusion did I?
    In fact all I said was this team had a long way to go and that it's a good thing it was Week 1 of the preseason.
    Thanks for putting words in my mouth though.
    Now having said that, we should be better with Long, Bush and Marshall in the line-up (although I am getting nervous about Long, hopefully it's just paranoia).
    But that doesn't change the fact that with everyone's starters in, I didn't like what I saw from the O-line, Henne or the run game, although Thomas didn't get much in the way of carries.
     
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  38. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I guess I should have been more clear. I was only talking about starters vs. starters. We were outmatched. If we are talking 2nds and 3rds, we saw plenty of good things from them.
     
  39. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, I've come to the conclusion that the subject of Chad Henne has become a "do not bother" type of thing Phinomina, no matter what his weakness will be hyped, his strengths not talked about, nor will any improvements be spoken of, by some.

    Chris Williams had a punt stoink off of his face mask in 09, Fasano has one stoink off of his face mask, the reactions are wildly different.

    Post after post about the 2nd int, were are the diagrams of Henne hitting Hartline, in stride, deep down the field?

    They do not exist, that is why I say "agenda".
     
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  40. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck Club Member

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    I don't think people are denying he threw it behind Fasano - just saying that without Fasano making a TERRIBLE play, we aren't even talking about it. It wasn't perfect but, really, it was plenty good enough to get the job done in that instance.

    Henne's throw was slightly off and Fasano made a terrible play - but now we are splitting the blame where it really was a routine catch for a TE.

    The 2nd INT was a terrible play - no matter if the WR ran the wrong route or not.

    But I thought there were things that looked better - he had an accurate deep throw, he avoided pressure and threw on the run, he was aggressive.
     
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