The Jeff Ireland Discussion Thread

"PSG wrote:

I agree.
I think the Jeff Ireland debate has run it's course.
Everyone knows where everyone else stands and nobody is going to get others off their opinion. The Pro-Ireland camp believe what they believe. And the Anti-Ireland camp believe what we believe.
I think at the end of the season, after everything is said and done, we can revisit this topic. Until then I think we're just regurgitating the same crap.

Again, I won't disagree with this entirely but I think we're all kidding ourselves if we think we're going to suddenly stop talking about Ireland now and wait till the season is over to bring him up again. I think we'll have new thoughts and new discussions after every game.

"MonstBlitz wrote:

I really don't think Section or any fan on this board wants the team to lose. But he makes a good point. If the Dolphins have another dreadful sub .500 season like some of us fear (not hope) they will have, the bean counters will likely make Ireland's fate perfectly clear. As fans we can think it's a good move or bad move, but Ross won't argue with the bottom line.

If you think he made a good point then you probably think you're making good points also :tongue2:.

If Ireland was in danger of being fired he probably wouldn't be jettisoning veterans for draft picks. Seems to me he's stockpiling draft picks and clearing cap space for the future. But if your mind was made up long ago I'm not expecting you to be rational or anything like that. If we have a sub .500 season it means we had a sub .500 season. It doesn't mean anyone is getting fired it means we'll be picking in the top 10-12 with 5 picks in top 70 or so.

Obviously we have a hole at WR. 5 picks in the top 70 can fix that, there will be several FA options available as well http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=WR&y=2013. We have guys playing for new contracts, Bush-Long-SSmith most notably, guys being red shirted Egnew-LMiller, a QB we're going to want a look at, a defense that is young and talented. We've got a most of the building blocks in place. It all goes back to adding weapons for Tannehill to throw too IMO.

I don't see how firing the GM helps with any of our current issues and I'd read enough of the anti-Ireland rationale to realize that you guys don't know either.

"Section126 wrote:

YEP!

I just pointed out a fact...and there you have it..I am rooting for the stadium to cave in and for flipper to get eaten by a whale.

That was a prediction, not a fact.

"alen1 wrote:

I'm not saying I'm anti-Ireland, but sometimes rooting for your team to lose results in a win. It's not as much about class as it's wanting what's best for someone or in this case, the franchise.

you got a point, for instance that 6-3 finish last season really did more harm than good, not only did those meaningless wins take us out of the Luck and RG3 sweepstakes, but it also convinced Ross to keep Ireland on the basis that coaching was the real issue and not personnel. I'd trade those 6 wins in 2011 for 2 wins YESTERDAY, 2-14 probably gets us Luck or RG3 and gets Ireland canned.

1st/2nd overall pick in the draft, no GM being forced on you, an owner with deep pockets willing to spend, we probably coulda got Cowher, Fisher, Gruden, any available coach we really wanted at that point. aww man what coulda been... :sad:

"Anonymous wrote:

That was a prediction, not a fact.

no. It is a fact that if the stadium is empty and renewals are slow that Ross loses money and is more likely to fire this fool.

I find these thread funny. The only way you can convice someone that likes Ireland that he is terrible is to wait it out and let the losses pile up.

Parcells screwed the Phins, and 95% of the people I think agree. He brought in Ireland and Sporano. That is a verdict in itself.

I bought season tickets the day after Parcells came to the Phins and I thought we were going back to the glory days. By the end of the second season , I could see Henne was terrible, Sporano was a terrible game day coach (the clock management alone made me loose my voice 4 times) and Ireland could not relate to the players and had no idea how to build a team.

I got into many many arguments that Henne was a disaster, and finally gave up trying to convince Dolphin fans that were not at the games. In person you could see how bad he was.

I did not renew my season tickets for 2011. Finally the Dolphins gave up on Henne, something I wanted a year before and fired Sporano, a year and 1/2 after I did.

I hope that Ross finally fires Ireland this year, and I think it will happen, 2 1/2 years after I started calling for his head.

The Dolphins called me 5 times today and left two messages with all kinds of deals to renew my tickets and my answer is the same. You want a 5K yearly investment from me, I want something in return.

Also have not bought any dolphin merchandise in the last three years, but I watch every game, and every minute of the game. I never left the games I went to early no matter if they were way ahead or getting killed and had no chance. I stay to the bitter end and I will always be a HUGE Dolphin fan and supporter.

"alen1 wrote:

I'm not saying I'm anti-Ireland, but sometimes rooting for your team to lose results in a win. It's not as much about class as it's wanting what's best for someone or in this case, the franchise.

I agree with all of that.

But I think it's pretty obvious that Ireland has decided to prioritize draft picks and cap space for 2013 and beyond over winning in 2012. And yet we have posters screaming for Ireland to be fired for past mistakes or not pouring resources into improving the team this year. It's not they disagree with what Ireland is doing so much as they don't even understand what he's doing, because what he's doing is exactly what they're claiming they want "what's best for the franchise". The difference is Ireland may be willing to accept 5-11 in order to maximize our chances of contending over the long term, while the Ireland bashers are predicting and in some cases rooting for 5-11, just so that Ireland can get fired.

I don't question the passion for the team so much as I question whether or not rage and hatred is preventing other wise good fans from seeing the obvious truths in their face.

"Section126 wrote:

no. It is a fact that if the stadium is empty and renewals are slow that Ross loses money and is more likely to fire this fool.

Yes that is a fact.

But we don't know if that will happen. We could win 10 games this year. That's why your post was a prediction.

"Section126 wrote:

no. It is a fact that if the stadium is empty and renewals are slow that Ross loses money and is more likely to fire this fool.

LOL. Please look up the definition of the word "fact".

"Dtronic wrote:

I find these thread funny. The only way you can convice someone that likes Ireland that he is terrible is to wait it out and let the losses pile up.

Parcells screwed the Phins, and 95% of the people I think agree. He brought in Ireland and Sporano. That is a verdict in itself.

I bought season tickets the day after Parcells came to the Phins and I thought we were going back to the glory days. By the end of the second season , I could see Henne was terrible, Sporano was a terrible game day coach (the clock management alone made me loose my voice 4 times) and Ireland could not relate to the players and had no idea how to build a team.

I got into many many arguments that Henne was a disaster, and finally gave up trying to convince Dolphin fans that were not at the games. In person you could see how bad he was.

I did not renew my season tickets for 2011. Finally the Dolphins gave up on Henne, something I wanted a year before and fired Sporano, a year and 1/2 after I did.

I hope that Ross finally fires Irlenad this year, and I think it will happen, 2 1/2 years after I started calling for his head.

The Dolphins called me 5 times today and left two messages with all kinds of deals to renew my tickets and my answer is the same. You want a 5K yearly investment from me, I want something in return.

Also have not bought any dolphin merchandise in the last three years, but I watch every game, and every minute of the game. I never left the games I went to early no matter if they were way ahead or getting killed and had no chance. I stay to the bitter end and I will always be a HUGE Dolphin fan and supporter.

No disrespect sir, but IMO, looking for a return on your investment, and boycotting games and merchandise, if more continue to think they are entitled to anything more than the team itself, you are creating the foundation for a franchise to leave your city..

You have taken this stance because your not happy with how many wins we have?.... Your lucky to have a team..jmo.

Will you be proud looking into a stadium that is half empty, and being mocked nationally where all your really doing is feeding the rotten culture that's already here, your making it worse because what your doing doesn't just mean it will forces changes in the front office, it could mean much worse.

"GMJohnson wrote:

I agree with all of that.

But I think it's pretty obvious that Ireland has decided to prioritize draft picks and cap space for 2013 and beyond over winning in 2012. And yet we have posters screaming for Ireland to be fired for past mistakes or not pouring resources into improving the team this year. It's not they disagree with what Ireland is doing so much as they don't even understand what he's doing, because what he's doing is exactly what they're claiming they want "what's best for the franchise". The difference is Ireland may be willing to accept 5-11 in order to maximize our chances of contending over the long term, while the Ireland bashers are predicting and in some cases rooting for 5-11, just so that Ireland can get fired.

I don't question the passion for the team so much as I question whether or not rage and hatred is preventing other wise good fans from seeing the obvious truths in their face.

No offense but you have no idea what Ireland is doing or if he is the one doing it. You are making an educated guess.

I judge Ireland by what I can physically see. His draft choices, his player cuts and trades. And the results on the field.

"Anonymous wrote:

Yes that is a fact.

But we don't know if that will happen. We could win 10 games this year. That's why your post was a prediction.

No, that's not a fact it is an opinion. Jeff Ireland is a "fool" is not a fact, nor is his opinion on what Ross would do in some futuristic hypothetical fantasy a fact.

My opinion is that Ireland has already spoken to Ross about the team's prospects for this season and the next couple of season at least. My guess is that Ross gave the go ahead for a future based approach b/c had he not approved Ireland would be insubordinate at this point.

Unfortunately, "building for the future" is not a message that resonates with season ticket holders so there wont be any press conferences about it. It's up to us fans to use some common sense.

"djphinfan wrote:

No disrespect sir, but IMO, looking for a return on your investment, and boycotting games and merchandise, if more continue to think they are entitled to anything more than the team itself, you are creating the foundation for a franchise to leave your city..

You have taken this stance because your not happy with how many wins we have?.... Your lucky to have a team..jmo.

Will you be proud looking into a stadium that is half empty, and being mocked nationally where all your really doing is feeding the rotten culture that's already here, your making it worse because what your doing doesn't just mean it will forces changes in the front office, it could mean much worse.

So you are asking me if I am proud to see an empty stadium? No less than how proud I was having to watch what is taking place on the field.

And the Dolphins have already been mocked nationally since Ireland did the whore question.

I know alot of season ticket holders personally that have not renewed, and they had them alot longer than my 3 years.

The empty stadium is a result of people voting with their wallets. I was not one of the lucky ones to get a personal call by Ross.

I see a team that has gotten progressively worse the past 3 years and I atribute a large part of that to personel moves. That's my opinion.

"MonstBlitz wrote:

You believe he ran the entire draft as a scout, but believe he had 0 input into picks as a General Manager? It just doesn't compute. I'm not saying I don't believe you about him pushing Ware being a documented fact, but I'd love to see the documentation on it if you have a link to share.

refer to following statement/link.

"There was plenty of ego in the room when the Dallas Cowboys' executives gathered at their headquarters for the 2005 NFL Draft.
On one side of the table sat owner Jerry Jones. On the other side were coach Bill Parcells and the Cowboys' scouts. Overseeing the proceedings was 35-year-old Jeff Ireland, running his first draft as head of college and pro scouting."

Dallas had the 11th pick, the clock was ticking and tensions were rising: Should Dallas take LSU defensive tackle Marcus Spears or Troy outside linebacker DeMarcus Ware?" "Jeff wanted Ware, and he stood up to Bill and said that was going to be the pick."
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/miami-dolphins-gm-jeff-ireland-has-more-responsibility-and-more-pressure-this-offseason-457223.html

So, yes, considering Parcells was the head coach in Dallas rather than the czar in charge he was hired to be in Miami, Ireland had less say here b/c Parcells had more say, and the final say at that. Plus there's the following quote by Ireland:

“It’s a team effort,” Ireland said. “Bill Parcells and I conducted a couple drafts together, and I conducted one here solely by myself [2011] with my team upstairs, obviously. I’m certainly not responsible for all of it.”
http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports...cess-rate.html

If you check out the link I provided earlier in the thread, it sheds a lot of light on the Ireland-Parells relationship IMO.

If you can't judge a GM based on what players he drafted that are retained and contributing to a team, what can you judge him by? Having to hire a new coach suddenly turned Gates into a bad player?

The new coach obviously felt he didn't care to invest time in developing Gates. If Gates becomes a decent receiver in NY, does that qualify him as being a bust in the league?

I'm sure Ireland didn't plan on signing 9 free agents and have only 2 of them make it to the 53 man roster. He made bad decisions. Steinbach over Braylon Edwards was a mistake. I won't say Edwards is a super star but he's better than most WRs on our team. I think he had more receiving yards or nearly as many by himself as all our WRs combined on Sunday. And I don't think it matters that rookies beat out FAs. Most of them still haven't proven their good enough to play on Sunday.

I would've rather had Edwards over Steinbach, too, but it's possible Philbin & Ireland believed Chad Johnson represented a better offensive fit and that they might've decided that having just one, 1 year contract receiver is enough. With all the draft picks we have coming up, it makes sense that we'd be able to fill some of our holes with those picks w/o having to use up valuable 2012 & beyond cap space on more expensive 2012 Free Agents. B/c we're doing it this way, IMO it makes it more feasible to bring in a couple true impact FAs in 2013 b/c of the cap space we're affording by not making any rash moves in 2012. I think that's why most of our 2012 FA signings pose little risk to damaging our future cap space---- b/c all of it was done on purpose to provide a huge offseason next year. All those picks & cap space in 1 year will provide a ton of freedom and flexibility to where we could do considerably more damage than normal.

In my opinion you don't trade away players who can be dominant at times for less than you paid. You find a coach who can coach them up. If they prove they can do it at times, a good head coach should be able to get it out of him consistently. I hold Philbin accountable for VD as well, even though my impression from Hard Knocks was that Ireland sold Philbin on the decision to trade him.

That's fair, and it's my opinion that the player is only worth what he's currently worth, not what you paid to get him. Plus a player can't be dominant when he's sitting on the bench b/c he's suspended for showing up drunk/hungover and when he starts the season out of shape and with resulting hamstring problems which don't do our coverage any favors during the first handful of games. Then he follows it up by showing up this year out of shape and displaying more inconsistency by drawing a flagrant PI call and Personal Foul in back to back games. A player can only be coached up if he wants to be coached up. Please don't blame Vontae on anyone but Vontae; it's simply not fair. Ireland didn't seem like he sold the idea to Philbin as I recall Philbin talking about how he's not sure if Vontae can get with the program or that he sees him being a part of the future or however he worded it. It sounded like they both agreed with it, which is quite telling IMO. Look, I was Vontae fan from the day we signed him. The fan in me was hoping we'd give him more time to develop, but the realist in me was saying, "He's now in his 4th year and he seems no more consistent, hard working, and reliable than he did as a rookie." I'd almost have to say he seems more complacent than he did as a rookie.

I hope you're right that he has a plan for this year. I don't think he has an acceptable plan but I could be wrong. Let's just watch and see what BM does the rest of this season and we'll revisit the decision to get rid of him for 2 thirds.

Brandon Marshall will tear it up this year in Chicago. He was my favorite Dolphin to boot. However, the only we we could've kept him w/o being a headache & distraction is if we had a solid veteran QB in an offense that could constantly feed him the ball, which is exactly what he can now get in Chicago. In Miami, he would not have been happy by a long shot, hence keeping him would've been risky. Chicago is a perfect fit for him. Hopefully next year we land Jennings, who would fit well here.

Personally, I'd rather have 2 3rd for Marshall and try to land Jennings next year than keep Marshall and play him in an offensive scheme that cant maximize his production b/c of its spread the ball around design. Honestly, could you imagine how emotional and disgruntled Brandon would be if he were to catch only 70 passes/year the next few years? Recipe for a nightmare IMO. Garcon cost too much. Way too much. Eddie Royal would've been a great signing if we didn't already have a similar slot receiver in Bess. Slot isn't our problem. We need a perimeter guy. Robert Meachem wouldn't have been bad, but I don't see him as the ideal receiver for this offense considering Philbin & Sherman's offense is predicated upon solid route running and the ability for its receivers to play all 3 positions (X,Y,Z), which I don't think fits Meachem as I believe he's more relegated to the flanker role. I'm not so sure Manningham & Lloyd represent the best fits for our scheme either considering we can instead use a 2nd rounder to fill the #2 receiver spot but for $3-5 million less per year than those three. If it works out that way, it's a smart move, no?... and it'd allow us more cap space to go after Jennings, Wallace, or Bowe. $45-55 million for either of them plus a 2nd round receiver seems much more feasible money wise to me if the overall goal is adding a premium playmaker.

I really can't recall a coach speaking ill of another GM that he interviewed with while still employed in the NFL. It just doesn't happen as it's not a good career move. Maybe Fisher does respect Ireland, but he clearly didn't respect him enough to want to work with him.

IDK, I thought Fischer wanted a destination where he could have more control than Ross was willing to give him, which is probably why he wanted to steal Gaine from us to groom as a GM.

Time will tell. Thanks for revisiting this. I don't agree with you but I appreciate you taking the time to have a reasonable discussion on the topic.

Thanks, and I don't think ill of anyone for disagreeing with my beliefs in a respectful manner. Personally, I think there's plenty to be concerned about based on our recent past, but I think it's more important to know how much young Ireland has learned from the recent struggles this team & organization has faced. If he has, then he might actually be ok. Only this season will tell. He seems to have a methodical plan for the future and next year b/c I don't think we'd have a new coaching staff, new offensive & defensive schemes, a shiny new 1st round QB, a group of FAs we can easily walk away from, and a ton of draft picks & $60 million in cap space next year if he didn't. If that was his plan all along, then there is the potential for a very impressive "best case scenario". I happen to think he's an outstanding evaluator of defensive talent and would love to see us use that cap space on a no-brainer FA like Jennings or Wallace and then dedicate most of the draft to defensive players, especially an impact pass rusher & FS. Or maybe everything's coincidence and he doesn't know what he's doing. I think he has the traits to make a great GM, but at the same time I understand that doesn't necessarily mean they'll translate as such. I've grown to like the guy as a person after watching Hard Knocks, but that wouldn't stop me from calling for his replacement if the season shows no signs of a promising future.

"Dtronic wrote:

Parcells screwed the Phins, and 95% of the people I think agree. He brought in Ireland and Sporano. That is a verdict in itself.

No, they didn't. It doesn't take a tremendous amount of perspective to realize that we could have gotten much worse results than they did, even if they were disappointing. Dolphins fans really don't have much of an excuse for not knowing better, either. Being screwed would be getting Dave Wannstedt, Matt Millen style results.

"vitalize wrote:

i don't get it? you hope he fails?

He already has.

"GMJohnson wrote:

No, that's not a fact it is an opinion. Jeff Ireland is a "fool" is not a fact, nor is his opinion on what Ross would do in some futuristic hypothetical fantasy a fact.

My opinion is that Ireland has already spoken to Ross about the team's prospects for this season and the next couple of season at least. My guess is that Ross gave the go ahead for a future based approach b/c had he not approved Ireland would be insubordinate at this point.

Unfortunately, "building for the future" is not a message that resonates with season ticket holders so there wont be any press conferences about it. It's up to us fans to use some common sense.

That could be the case. It does make sense considering the moves Ireland has made and the position he put us in next off season.

We'll just have to wait and see.

"Dtronic wrote:

No offense but you have no idea what Ireland is doing or if he is the one doing it. You are making an educated guess.

I judge Ireland by what I can physically see. His draft choices, his player cuts and trades. And the results on the field.

None taken. And yes I try to make educated guesses as opposed to hysterical rants. Sue me :wink2:.

Regardless of the topic, I love watching new comers try to argue with Section lol

"TiP54 wrote:

Regardless of the topic, I love watching new comers try to argue with Section lol

You don't need to be new to appreciate that experience. I've moderated high school debates before and it's still jarring.

"GMJohnson wrote:

LOL. Please look up the definition of the word "fact".

okay...if the stadium is empty and Ross loses money he is more likely to keep Ireland.

Happy?

"MonstBlitz wrote:

Again, I won't disagree with this entirely but I think we're all kidding ourselves if we think we're going to suddenly stop talking about Ireland now and wait till the season is over to bring him up again. I think we'll have new thoughts and new discussions after every game.

Yeah I get it.
But it's still going to be the same sh*t. Each side bringing up the same arguments over and over and over and over again.

"Disgustipate wrote:

You don't need to be new to appreciate that experience. I've moderated high school debates before and it's still jarring.

We disagree on the subject.

While he comes of as brash and cocky, it's because he is right more times than he isn't. Not always, but his batting average is definitely high.
Basically, if he is stepping in to the debate more often than not he has a clue what he is talking about.

"PSG wrote:

Yeah I get it.
But it's still going to be the same sh*t. Each side bringing up the same arguments over and over and over and over again.

It wouldn't be the regular season if we weren't arguing the merits of Jay Fiedler ... John Beck ... Chad Henne ... Tony Sparano ... Dave Wannstedt ... etc ... etc ...

"Dtronic wrote:

So you are asking me if I am proud to see an empty stadium? No less than how proud I was having to watch what is taking place on the field.

And the Dolphins have already been mocked nationally since Ireland did the whore question.

I know alot of season ticket holders personally that have not renewed, and they had them alot longer than my 3 years.

The empty stadium is a result of people voting with their wallets. I was not one of the lucky ones to get a personal call by Ross.

I see a team that has gotten progressively worse the past 3 years and I atribute a large part of that to personel moves. That's my opinion.

I understand if it comes down to a monetary situation, but I believe that fans in this game who vote against with their wallets will eventually get you no team to be pissed off at..

Do you not agree that you and others that you know who are boycotting because you have a problem with your front office, could have a reverse affect from what your trying to do?