The Jeff Ireland Discussion Thread

I can only speak for myself, but by no means do I want the most talented free agent as they are generally overpaid.

 

Funny how it's a pretty lousy profit by NFL standards.

 

My point here was to point out how much ticket sales actually affect profitability.

 

A lot of free agents who are paid the huge contracts certainly have already played their best ball prior to becoming a free agent. Some also get all that money and they get fat and lazy. While you sometimes get lucky and find a Cameron Wake or a Devon Bess in free agency.

I would much rather the Dolphins build through the draft, as most of the top teams have done. I just think that a GM has to be good enough at his job to spend money on free agents very wisely.

 

And you do that by pointing out that the Dolphins made 14.5 million when the average NFL franshise makes 41 million? Good job

 

With all due respect, I think my point went over your head.

 

Did you miss the part where they are #26 in the NFL?

 

With all due respect, I think mine went over yours.

 

How much revenue is being lost with all these empty seats?

 

You know as well as I do that we don't have this number. What we do have is a franchise with a lot of empty seats and an operating income well below the league average. Given that sports franchises usually charge people for seats and that people who pay for said seats usually spend even more money on food/drinks/merchandise/parking one can somewhat reasonably assume a certain correlation at play.

 

Correlation is 0.32 between attendance (% of total seats) and operating profits.

What is important to keep in mind here is that we are talking about ~$5M-$10M worth of lost revenues by not selling out the stadium.

How much are we under the salary cap this year? How much were we under last year? How did the Bucs make $44M last season despite not having much better attendance than us?

 

He still looks pretty ugly at times when he has lapses of technique, but this was nothing close to his pre-season play, and nowhere even close to some of the examples of poor examples of tackle play from just this last weekend.

 

Depends. "Young, ascending talent" isn't exactly a term that's been scarce on message boards like this for the past decade. Unfortunately a lot of that talent that people have talked about never quite matured into the players we'd thought. I think people have a right to their cynicism until we start to see more of the Misi's, Odrick's, Jerry's, Moore's, Hartline's, Carroll's and Joneses of the world actually ascend.

 

Sure it has.

How about:

Jake Long
Cameron Wake
Reggie Bush
Sean Smith
Richie Incognito
Mike Pouncey
Davone Bess
Brian Hartline
Paul Soliai
Randy Starks
Karlos Dansby
Kevin Burnett
Richard Marshall
Koa Misi
Javorskie Lane
Dan Carpenter
Marcus Thigpen

And of course the one who can turn the whole thing around if he pans out: Ryan Tannehill.

 

So football is only conducted on Sundays? That would explain a lot actually.

 

We still need to play this season first. You replace Marshall with Naanee, and replace Davis with Stanford. Does that send a message to your fan base that you are doing your best to field the best possible product this season?

 

Right, but my point is that its very easy for an owner to offset that lost revenue.

 

I think it sends the opposite message, Ireland is not going to go all in to win this season. He seems to have positioned us pretty well w/ respect to the draft and FA 2013. People can reasonably agree or disagree with that strategy but IMO its a pretty sound one.

 

Why won't he ignore it? Why didn't he fire Ireland after people protested? He can easily recoup whatever revenue is lost.

 

exactly, not to mention the fans don't give a **** about 5 picks in the first 3 rounds if the guy making the picks CAN'T DRAFT.

 

Pretty much. Looking forward to seeing this clown get canned before he can draft a turnstile guard in round 2 instead of a WR just like he did last year drafting Martin over Stephen Hill and Alshon Jeffery. 2 WR's who made big impacts for their team in week one while our turnstile tackle contributed to a blowout loss.

 

I understand all of that. Where I disagree is I don't think Ross will turn his personnel decisions over to the fan base, nor should he.

If you agree that having a franchise QB is of paramount importance and that Tannehill has the potential to be a FQB then why not give the guy who drafted him a couple of years to build around the guy?

 

^^^ exactly why Ross shouldn't listen to fans.

 

According to the facts:

1. We have Jerry Jones saying Ireland isn't a "Parcells guy".
2. We know from his own mouth that Ireland didn't run the drafts from '08-'10.
3. We have a club source saying Parcells studied players and set the agenda for drafting them from '08-'10.
4. We know Parcells had final say over Ireland.
5. We have Joe Rose saying Ireland had to fit players to Parcells' blueprint, and that Ireland & Parcells were in a teacher-mentor role.
6. We have an initial failed staff of coaches hired by Parcells.
7. We have 6 known NFL HCs, owner, and ex GMs (Fischer, Frazier, Garrett, Jerry Jones, Casserly, Brandt) openly disagree with Ireland's criticism.
8. The Miami organization essentially said the plan all along was for Parcells to build up the team and then let Ireland "assume full control".
9. We have Dave Hyde referencing how Ireland has veered from the outdated Parcells way of drafting, especially on offense.
10. We know Parcells drafted Pat White, John Nalbone, and passed on Matt Ryan.
11. We have multiple sources (including Miami's own admission) that Ireland's contract was worded such a way to allow Miami to steal him from Dallas.
12. We've seen a monumental change in offensive scheme, from out of the stone age and into the modern world.
13. We had overpaid players like Jake Grove & Vernon Carey either waived or forced to take a huge cut in pay by Ireland following Parcells stepping down, making you question whose decision it was to sign the injured center and extend Carey's contract at such a lofty price.
14. We know that Miami was set on drafting Pat Turner in the 3rd round no matter what, which contradicts Ireland's draft approach of firmly sticking to his board, making the wasted Turner selection seem like a Parcells decision.

 

Too bad people around the league disagree with you.
You should really stop grasping at straws.

 

I think you're taking your feelings about Ireland and projecting them onto the rest of the fanbase. I think the rest of the fanbase is far more understanding regarding the presence of a rookie QB and how that takes time, and I don't think the average fan has any idea that someone is "rebuilding his own mess" here. I think that's a concept that's shared by fans who analyze the team a great deal (such as the folks in here) and have negative feelings toward Ireland.

The average fan is going to be looking for signs that Tannehill is a franchise QB, and if they get those signs, the last thing on their mind is going to be how someone is rebuilding his own mess. They're certainly not going to let the deeply analytical (for the average fan) concept that someone is rebuilding his own mess get in the way of their excitement about having the first young franchise QB on the team since Marino. And having that franchise QB will put their butts in the seats.

 

Yea Ross. Who needs playmakers? Make sure Ireland keeps drafting linemen. Particularly ones that suck in pass protection like Martin. That's the recipe for success for sure. But only in the first round of course. Ireland can't hit on linemen that aren't clear as day safe picks like other GM's can.

 

We've taken 2 lineman in the first round, Long and Pouncey. Disagree with the picks all you want but both of those guys are ballers. Perhaps OL play doesn't interest you, you might be one of those guys who only watches the ball.

JMart has never played RT before and he has had some struggles no doubt. But he graded out as a first round talent and Ireland chose to take him and move him to the right side. If you noticed, last year our RT position was the biggest weak spot on the entire team so it's not hard to understand the decision. If you've declared his selection a mistake after one game I dont know what to tell you. The Steelers used two high picks on lineman this season, the Pats took Vollmer in the 2nd round last year. Nick Mangold and DBrick Ferguson are both first rounders playing for the Jets. Brian Bulaga went first round to protect Aaron Rodgers, Gabe Carimi was a first round pick chosen to help keep Cutler upright but he got hurt and so did his QB, ruining Chicago's season last year. Michael Oher was a 1st rounder chosen by Ozzie Newsome, surely you dont think all of these guys are clueless noobs, no?

Yes we absolutely need play makers, and if you've noticed it then I'm willing to bet that our GM has noticed it as well.

 

......respectfully, do you mean like the Super Bowl caliber Steelers, Patriots, Packers, Niners, Ravens, and Lions who all use the same or greater resources on Oline?

With how athletic and dominating today's defensive linemen are, there's not much wiggle room like there was in the past to where you could find those mid to late round starting offensive linemen. If you don't sure em up with 1st or 2nd round picks, it's more likely that you're going to get beat at the position. Many of those quality, more athletic, offensive linemen of the past are now playing defensive line, which means that not only is the depth at the position worse, making it difficult to find those quality mid round linemen, but the added talent to the defensive line make it more imperative than years past to find linemen who can hold their own against them.

So those 4th-6th round Olinemen of the past are now like 2nd-3rd rounders talent-wise..... and the 1st-3rd round linemen have become today's 1st rounders.

 

Yes those teams. Teams that already had playmakers on the roster and could afford to spend high on linemen since those were really the only weaknesses left. Those teams spent 1st round picks on OL AFTER they had a QB, skill position studs, and disruptive pass rushers. AFTER they were playoff teams. Of course our front office is filled with a bunch of morons who have done it backwards, and to nobody's surprise, it has failed. The Niners are the only team on that list that has done it like us. But they also have a lot more talent, specifically an elite defense, and much much better coaching than we do. Much more important, is those teams have actually found linemen outside of the first. Ireland hasn't found a single lineman worth a damn outside of the first round. Not one.

 

Really? Because I've noticed it for 5 years and yet here we are.

 

We also have Jason Taylor saying Parcells was the one that made on an offer on a Post-It note without his agent around. Which is crazy if Ireland was the GM.

 

He got rid of two first round picks from the old regime in their prime Carey and Ronnie Brown..which I wanted to happen..He signed Solai, and let Langford walk, which I wanted to happen..

What I don't like, is that he doesn't pick the players that I like..lol..Therefore my criticism is somewhat justified, to myself that is, but im willing to wait and see if his payers come thru..these past two years of acquisitions, combined with the positives that stem from positioning the franchise to have 50 to 60 million to spend and all draft picks plus extra 2nd, 3rd, and 6th.

 

Past performance and track record would be the reason, pretty much.

 

Which two former first round picks did they get rid of that were in their prime?

 

That's not true at all. Not only did they spend high picks before, but they also spent them after.

NE: drafted a 1st round Center the year before Brady and a 2nd round Guard the year of Brady.
After drafting Brady,
Tackle--- 1st round, two 2nd round, 3rd round.
Guard---- 1st round

Pittsburgh: drafted two 1st round Guards and 2nd & 3rd round Tackles before Ben.
After drafting Ben,
Tackle--- two 3rd round, two 2nd round.
Center--- 1st round
Guard---- 1st round

Baltimore: Franchise's first pick was Jonathan Ogden at #4 overall.
Since then,
Tackle---- 1st round, three 2nd round, two 3rd rounds
Guard---- 1st round, two 2nd round, 3rd round
Center--- 3rd round, 4th round

49ers since 2003:
Tackles--- three 1st round, 3rd round
Guard---- 1st round, three 2nd round, 4th round
Center--- 4th round

Indy: used its 1st & 2nd round picks on Tackles the year immediately before drafting Manning; used 2nd & 3rd rounders on Guard before that. Once those guys were finished, Indy spent a 1st & three 2nd rounders over a 5 year period to rebuild the Oline.

Atlanta: 2nd round Guard the year before Ryan, 1st round Tackle the year of Ryan, followed by a 3rd round Guard, 2nd round Center, and 3rd round Tackle.

Broncos: past 5 years drafted a 1st & 2nd round Tackle, 2nd round Guard, and 3rd round Center to make Denver an inviting place for Manning to feel protected.

Packers: two 1st round Tackles & 3rd round Guard before Brett Favre.
During the 5 years After Farvre: 3 1st rounders on Tackle & Guard, 3rd round Center, 3rd round Tackle.
Then two 1st round Tackles, 2 2nd round Tackles, and 3rd round guard through the Rodgers years.

Miami's 4 years before Marino & Co: 1st round tackle, 1st round guard, 2nd round center, 2nd round guard


Even our own team has served as a model of how this is the correct way to do it, unless you want to risk getting your QB killed or ruining him mentally.

 

Cross posting this because it's very illustrative, and the thread has been pretty much abandoned for its intended purposes:

http://www.fftoday.com/nfl/drafttracker.php?o=by_team&TeamID=9001

Bill Polian has had a long history of being some sort of draft guru, when the reality is that his draft picks have sucked for a long time. Polian's reputation is a pretty clear example of why you should actually look at the success of picks a decision maker is responsible for instead of I don't know, going with your gut or heart or whatever?

It's also notable in that it's a quite good example of how different factors that can make a team look dramatically more or less talented than it actually is. That Colts team was run into the ground, yet looked dramatically better than it actually is because of a single player.