The Jeff Ireland Discussion Thread

We've taken more than two lineman in the first round , do you want to correct yet another mistake you have posted?

 

Nope, since the regime changed we've only taken 2.
Perhaps you should double check your facts before spouting off.

 

Ronnie Brown and Vernon Carey..both speedily descending players at an age where if they produced up to their draft status, we'd be a much better team.

 

Sorry , I must not following this correctly , you said they got rid of 2 former first round picks in their prime, both Carey and Brown were far far removed from their prime when they were let go , how were they in their prime when they were let go?

 

Sorry maybe you should . You can spew all you want about how effective your guy is in your opinion and be incorrect but when you or the self proclaimed GM make factual mistakes you should correct yourselves.

Want to do that ? Or do you need ,like the GM did to have the factual inaccuracies detailed for you?

 

Long and Pouncey....who else?

Couple this with constantly repeating Polian took 3 teams to the SB instead of the actual 2, makes me question your source of facts.

 

Nope. I've got a secretary who does it for me. His coffee sucks and he's not as bright as he thinks he is but he works for free so how can I complain?

 

He means Odrick. Clearly we were talking about Olinemen but I'll never deny anyone their chance to feel clever.

 

You pretty much made my point for me. Miami is building there team with many of those models you just listed. The problem? Those models happened in the 90's. This is 2012. The Patriots, Steelers, Ravens and Favre Packers are terrible examples because of that. They've adapted to the changes in the NFL. Well, not the Ravens aside from drafting Flacco, but that's why they haven't been to a Superbowl since 2000. The Falcons did not use this outdated model. They started their rebuilding with Matt Ryan. You know, the guy we should've drafted. Bronco's same thing. Packers, again, same thing. They didn't look for OL until after they were already an elite team with Aaron Rodgers.

Again, this is 2012, not 1998. Offensive lines and running backs mattered then. QB's and pass catchers matter now.

But really, drafting lineman isn't really the problem here. The problem is drafting lineman when you literally don't have anything else on your team. The problem is Jeff Ireland is too incompetent to find OL outside of the first round. OL is not more important than QB, pass catchers, and pass rushers. Not to mention, OL is easily found outside of the first couple rounds, those other positions, not so much.

 

Let's see you have made at least three significant statements in less than a week that are factually inaccurate , not your opinion , but definitive statements that are wrong , that should tell everyone not to pay any credence to your posts . Keep trying to validate your pseudogm job.

 

We had this discussion prior to the draft , maybe someone was banned then , but you said lineman , and that is part of the Ireland criticism , and it indeed was not two , which makes it relevant as it pertains to how Ireland builds his football teams.

 

Three teams he had his stamp on plus building 2 Grey Cup champions , but Ireland has accomplished more of course. The point is not whether to hire Polian , pure speculation and conjecture , but diminishing his accomplishments and trumpeting Irelands performance over his is , imo laughable , at least at this point. If Ireland wins a playoff game this year , his fans can start a more realistic comparison.

 

And the fact that people don't do that systematically with regard to Ireland yet have such negative feelings toward him suggests to me there's a scapegoat process at work here.

If you didn't need a scapegoat, you'd be willing to put in the work to research something you felt so strongly about, to make sure your perceptions are accurate. If you need a scapegoat, however, you might be reluctant to do that work because it might reveal your perceptions as inaccurate and then leave you without one.

 

1. We were very clearly speaking about oline.
2. You cannot count the Panthers. That's just silly.
3. I never said Ireland accomplished more. Try again.

 

That's likely a major stretch from the truth, but if it were true it'd be out of solidarity due to how many factually inaccurate statements you've persisted to make regarding Ireland..... b/c GM's a nice guy that way.

 

Lol...that's good sh&$ right there..

 

only 3? I see your disdain for research goes well past judging Ireland with respect to other GMs.

 

LOL I probably was banned, thanks for remembering. If you've got an axe to grind with me be a grownup and send a PM to let me know what the issue is. No need to hash it out in here...

Like I said before, the "two" referred to OL not lineman period. It was in response to a poster who was saying that Ireland was too incompetent to find OL past the 1st round so I was pointing out that Pouncey and Long were good picks regardless of where they were drafted. The point remains the same even if you include Odrick. He was a solid rotational player and now he is the starter at DE. Getting a starting DE at pick 29 is nothing to be ashamed of. Especially when you consider that Aaron Maybin was picked 11th and Vernon Gholston was picked 6th IIRC. Larry English (16th), Tyson Jackson (3rd), Chris Long (2nd), Glenn Dorsey (5th), Derrick Harvey (8th), Lawrence Jackson (28th), Sedrick Ellis (8th), Kentwan balmer (29th) are some of the other recent 1st round picks at the DL position. Considering where Odrick was taken I'd say it was pretty good value.

Its pretty obvious you're not including what other GMs do in your analysis of Ireland. You're not interested in objectively critiquing the guy, you're mainly just bashing. Maybe you should spend some time looking into league wide draft success rates instead of obsessively fact checking my posts. I doubt you will, but I think you'd have a better idea of what you're talking about if you did.

 

You have a problem with a GM taking a 1st round DT?

BTW, that's not part of the criticism of Ireland; it's part of YOUR criticism of Ireland, b/c people with a good understanding of the game know the impact a dominant line can have, just as we saw from both teams Sunday. Outside of QB, the trenches are the most important part of the game. It's a naive & silly argument to say that having Long, Pouncey, and Odrick [and Misi essentially thrown in for free] is a bad thing.


You try to make it seem like this "focusing on the trenches" idea is something exclusive to Jeff Ireland, but we're recently on par with great teams like NE, Balt, Pitt, and GB.

Patriot's 3x SB team featured 5 1st round linemen in 7 years.

Steelers: 47% of Pitt's 1st rounders since '98 were linemen. (Didn't they win a few SBs?)

Packers: 4 of last 6 1st rounders on linemen

Ravens: 80% of 1st rounders since '06 were linemen.(plus an addition 3 2nd rounders)

Saints: 50% of 1st rounders on linemen since '02

Eagles: 75% of 1st rounders (18 of 24) on linemen since 1985.

Texans: 71% of 1st rounders on linemen since '06

Lions: 4 1st round linemen in past 5 years

Niners: 4 1st round linemen in past 6 years

Bears: last 3 1st rounders were linemen

*Dolphins: only 4 1st round linemen in past 16 years.
(Perhaps you think it's not normal to draft 1st round linemen since Miami had only done it once in 11 years prior to Parcells & Ireland arriving. )


Other fun facts:
The dominant '85 Bears team used 5 of their 9 previous 1st rounders on linemen.
The awesome '02 Bucs SB team saw 6 of their previous 10 1st rounders on linemen.

 

Good ish. Mentioning the NY Giants would have been overkill I guess... Tuck, Pierre Paul, Marvin Austin, Linval Joseph, Will Beatty, Jay Alford, Osi Umenyiora, William Joseph, all high picks. I'm glad Jerry Reese isn't our GM, the idiot. They'll never win drafting linemen like that. If you cant score points for my fantasy football team, you're useless to me...

 

It's late. I knew I was leaving someone out.

 

Slacker

 

LOL @ "complete vindication".

I don't see anyone doing a TD dance after one game. And I don't see as much Ireland defending as I see people like me trying to caution people like you against prejudging a guy before he's had a chance to implement his plan. Playing the Jets won't tell us much about talent level one way or the other. I think a little perspective will go a long way. You can't judge a GM based on week to week performances, save that for the players and coaches.

 

I think the issue is that lots of people came into this season needing a scapegoat for the perception of the team as continuing to be poor despite having a new coaching regime and a new, first-round quarterback.

Who better than the guy who's been here through it all, the common denominator, the GM?

Now, however, what it looks like is that this team can be competitive with any team in the league because of the players that GM has acquired.

I think what one side of this debate was saying (or I was, at least) was that the roster was no less talented than any other in the league, and the hole at QB is what has prevented this team from being successful.

What we're seeing now is that the rest of the roster may in fact be quite a bit more talented than that of many teams in the league, and no less talented than even the best teams in the league.

We're still only a quarterback away IMO.

 

Based on what? Beating the Raiders?

 

No.

 

Then on what basis do you suggest that we;re no less talented than the ebst etams in the league?

Think Houston, Baltimore, SF, GB, NYG, NE, Pitt, etc. would be interested in trading rosters with us?

 

I said the rest of the roster, other than the quarterback, is no less talented than those of the best teams in the league.

 

Jeffy threads are poison on this board...reminds me of the Fiedler debates years ago. Either guys like what he's doing and support him vehemently or they hate him and what he's been doing and turn off anyone who thinks differently...I'd say lets discuss the jests...

 

LOL. When did we sign some new WRs? We have maybe the worst WR corps in the league, and certainly no better than bottom 3. Name just one of the best teams with a WR corps comparable to Miami's.

 

I think we all agree with that our WR's aren't very good. Every team not called the 49ers has weakness somewhere. But the facts are that we're 12th in total offense, 2nd in rush offense and 4th in run defense so clearly we have some talent in other areas.

 

Some teams have strengths in some areas, other teams have strengths in others. You can't have strengths everywhere. We have talent in the trenches, at linebacker, at running back, and on special teams primarily, with decent talent at CB. Other teams may have strengths at wide receiver (Atlanta) or tight end (New England), but they may not have anywhere near the strength we do in the trenches, for example, and you're talking about nine starters out of 22 there.

Anyway, the point is, when you evaluate the overall talent on the roster (minus the QB at this point), I don't think you'll find a roster with significantly better talent than this one. What's making the best teams in the league play better than this one is their play at QB IMO.

 

So we've basically arrived back at your personal team building philosophy again?

 

Fixed.

 

Sorry but this isn't 7 on 7 football.
QB, offensive line unit, defensive line unit, pass rusher, #1 CB, and 4-3 ILB (QB of the defense) are more crucial core positions than S, TE, and WCO WR.

QB- check
Oline- check
Dline- check
elite pass rusher- check
potential #1 corner- check
defensive QB [ILB]- check


By the way, Rashad Jones is playing well, so I'm not sure where this "Safety has a ways to go" is coming from. Do you think every SB team has a pair of great safeties?
... and regarding TE, just b/c a rookie 3rd rounder needs some time to develop just as most TEs do, it doesn't qualify as lacking in talent, considering he's paired with Fasano and a developing Clay.

 

Based on seeing what Pennington did with lesser talent.

 

I think Houston pretty much proved that's not true. I'd argue San Francisco has the best roster in the entire league. Despite Miami's defense as being as good as it's been, look at how good San Francisco's has been AND who they've shut down.

 

I'd argue the exact opposite, but I strongly suspect it wouldn't convince you, so I won't.