The Marshall TD Drop

"maynard wrote:

is 85 on the season good enough?

No. Omar Kelly kept saying if our QB can have an 85 rating then this team will be in the playoffs and win like 10 games. I've disagreed with that. Two things:

1. There have been plenty of bad/marginal QBs that have gotten 85 ratings because of a decent surrounding cast and/or circumstances. I need to see more than that before I truly question my evaluation of him.

2. This season especially, you know how many QBs there are out there with 80+ QB Ratings? Remember, you can't play this game in a vaccuum! Everything is relative. So Chad Henne finally gets up to an 85 QB Rating in a year when 19 quarterbacks have 85+ ratings? That's the big accomplishment, the big goal that proves he's the hero of the story after all? He's been out-dueled by two straight QBs. Right now his season QB Rating is 27th of 32 in the NFL. And yet it's the highest it's ever been in his career.

"Eop05 wrote:

This is extremely hypocritical of you to call out others for making excuses. That's pretty much all you've done with Henne:

-Marshall can't catch
-Marshall's a diva, overpaid, overrated WR
-Hartline isn't fast or good enough
-No Team Speed
-Lack of running game
-Dan Henning ruined him
-David Lee ruined him and is stupid
-Sparano ruined him
- Dan Henning is a senile bastard

And that's just a small sample of the excuses you have made for Chad Henne's subpar play the past 2 years. I'm actually floored that you haven't caught yourself doing exactly what you call out everyone else for doing

So you are citing my defense of Henne in order to justify Marshall dropping a TD and dropping a ball that has big play potential.
Very creative. :no:

"PhiNomina wrote:

Just a caveat on looking at the QBR - his two INTs were on a tipped ball as time expired and on a play where his arm was hit. I get this could count as "making excuses", but I think there is a serious flaw in a stat attributing the INT where Colombo missed his block to Henne.

(Not saying Henne has looked great, just pointing out that when taking a deeper dive, QBR isn't perfect - remove one of those crap INTs and add in his rushing TD and suddenly you could make arguments he's been great. They'd be wrong, but you could do it.)

1. He also had 8 of 12 for 102 yards and 1 TD passing during garbage time, in addition to that interception. If you want to take out the garbage time INT, why aren't you taking out the garbage time TD and yardage? Seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

2. All Henne would have had do to avoid that INT is simple: work the pocket. Step up a little. That's a quarterback's job too. Mario came on a deep outside rush and Henne froze in place at the bottom of his drop. He takes one step up into that pocket to help out his OLs, and that play is not an interception. How in the world anyone tries to excuse this interception is beyond me.

"ckparrothead wrote:

No. Omar Kelly kept saying if our QB can have an 85 rating then this team will be in the playoffs and win like 10 games. I've disagreed with that. Two things:

1. There have been plenty of bad/marginal QBs that have gotten 85 ratings because of a decent surrounding cast and/or circumstances. I need to see more than that before I truly question my evaluation of him.

2. This season especially, you know how many QBs there are out there with 80+ QB Ratings? Remember, you can't play this game in a vaccuum! Everything is relative. So Chad Henne finally gets up to an 85 QB Rating in a year when 19 quarterbacks have 85+ ratings? That's the big accomplishment, the big goal that proves he's the hero of the story after all? He's been out-dueled by two straight QBs. Right now his season QB Rating is 27th of 32 in the NFL. And yet it's the highest it's ever been in his career.

This may be true, but can you honestly tell me that Matt Ryan is any better than Henne? QB rating doesn't take in to account factors like OL play, coaching and the talent around you.. If you gave Chad Henne the same time in the pocket that Brady has, I guarantee you his rating would be 90+.. That would probably be the case with every other QB in this league with the exception of the joke in Jacksonville

"Bumrush wrote:

This may be true, but can you honestly tell me that Matt Ryan is any better than Henne? QB rating doesn't take in to account factors like OL play, coaching and the talent around you.. If you gave Chad Henne the same time in the pocket that Brady has, I guarantee you his rating would be 90+.. That would probably be the case with every other QB in this league with the exception of the joke in Jacksonville

YES. Y-E-S. Polygraph me. Matt Ryan is not only better than Chad Henne, he is a LOT better than Chad Henne.

More excuses. Chad Henne's entire defense operates out of "what if" land.

"ckparrothead wrote:

What I'm tired of with Chad Henne is the EXCUSES and SCAPEGOATS. For some reason, I still can't figure out, a guy with 75, 75 and 79 QB Ratings from 2009 to 2010 to 2011, without a great win percentage, keeps getting excuse after excuse after excuse made for him. And what's worse, everyone feels like they need to tear down all these other players that are actually doing their jobs and doing them well, in order to make these excuses for him. Brandon Marshall played a GOOD game against the Texans. He was superb after the catch, creating first downs and a touchdown. He made one catch reaching around a corner's body that is just mind blowing when you look at it. He drew straight up double teams toward the end. But he's got to get torn down in order to make Henne look better.

But really, let's talk about anything and everything so that we don't acknowledge that the defense got tired and gave up at the end of the game again, the offense couldn't score touchdowns again, the special teams continued to be atrocious for the fourth straight year, the rookie running back who fumbled a lot in college coughed it up right when the team was looking to get back some momentum, and the quarterback (shocker here) followed up a good game with a poor one.

Lets also not ignore how badly this roster has been managed. How stubborn this regime has been with their evaluations and performance assesments, and how after another regime change this franchise is still irrelavent. I rooted my ass off for Parcells, Sporano and Ireland. But lets be honest. This team is not going to win. They are not talented enough. I am guilty of over valuing alot of these guys myself.

"ckparrothead wrote:

YES. Y-E-S. Polygraph me. Matt Ryan is not only better than Chad Henne, he is a LOT better than Chad Henne.

My eyes must lie to me, when I see Ryan I see a lot of the same things Chad does.. Makes a few great throws, then follows up with a bad read and near INT, then two overthrows.. Then an all world throw..

The same can be said for Sanchez, who IMHO is probably the best game manage/ playmaker out of the three....

Point is these guys are still young... And out of those three, Chad has played for a sh*t coach, a dwindling fanbase and a team on the verge of implosion.
But nobody is going to convince me that the new superstar darling QB's in this league are any better than what Chad can bring to the table.. Bring Matt Ryan or Sanchez to this team and the results are identical.

With what Marshall cost the Dolphins and his salary he should be money in the bank on a pass thrown the way that one was thrown. If it hits him in the hands and he got both hands on it it should be a catch. He may have not had time to get both feet down in bounds but it should have been a sure catch. Marshall was picked up to be a clutch player and a difference maker, hes good but not great yet.

In the last three games Marshall has fumbled. Dropped a potential TD vs NE. Dropped a potential TD vs Hou. The excuse about being pushed by Allen is good though. Its not like we're playing tackle football here...oh wait.

"Aqua4Ever04 wrote:

While I agree this is a catch that needs to be made, it wasn't what killed the momentum of our offense, it was the Daniel Thomas fumble that did that and shifted the momentum.

Both incidents were real buzz kills. That's how close were are to winning, though, eliminating mistakes like this. That's why I haven't completely given up .... yet.

"ckparrothead wrote:

1. He also had 8 of 12 for 102 yards and 1 TD passing during garbage time, in addition to that interception. If you want to take out the garbage time INT, why aren't you taking out the garbage time TD and yardage? Seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

2. All Henne would have had do to avoid that INT is simple: work the pocket. Step up a little. That's a quarterback's job too. Mario came on a deep outside rush and Henne froze in place at the bottom of his drop. He takes one step up into that pocket to help out his OLs, and that play is not an interception. How in the world anyone tries to excuse this interception is beyond me.

Yeah, I didn't mean to take away the INT because it was garbage time, but more because it was 4th down at the end of a game where he couldn't throw the ball away or make a "smart" decision. His only play was to force the ball - much like at the end of the Jets game last year when he got an INT trying to hit Fasano. He had to do SOMETHING, and while I know you could argue that he put himself in that situation, I was looking more at it from a "this wasn't a bad decision that led to an INT, it was a play where he had to force it".

I'm not particularly adamant about this - was just throwing it out as a thought in terms of evaluating his performance. If we are saying, "Look he still makes dumb choices because he has 2 INTs", I would argue more that they weren't bad decisions, but more circumstances of the play.

"ckparrothead wrote:

1. He also had 8 of 12 for 102 yards and 1 TD passing during garbage time, in addition to that interception. If you want to take out the garbage time INT, why aren't you taking out the garbage time TD and yardage? Seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

2. All Henne would have had do to avoid that INT is simple: work the pocket. Step up a little. That's a quarterback's job too. Mario came on a deep outside rush and Henne froze in place at the bottom of his drop. He takes one step up into that pocket to help out his OLs, and that play is not an interception. How in the world anyone tries to excuse this interception is beyond me.

One thing I never can understand is how people like to throws INTs away or incompletes away that were tippee by defensive lineman, QBs are responsible for that as well.

Should Marshall have caught that pass, sure. but he didnt. And he will drop others. And so will every other WR in the NFL. However Marshall has been good for us this year. I think he played well in the NE game, and he played well in the Texans game. He is the best offensive playmaker we have. I mean how many touches did Bush have? Outside of Marshall, in the Texans game the best playmaker we had was Daniel Thomas, and who knows what we will get from him going foward.

I think a bigger story with this team is Dansby going down and us having to start a guy we signed 3 weeks ago after he was cut is now going to start for us at ILB. Or that we are signing more cowboy rejects off the street to play this week. Where is the depth??

"creasy wrote:

Lets also not ignore how badly this roster has been managed. How stubborn this regime has been with their evaluations and performance assesments, and how after another regime change this franchise is still irrelavent. I rooted my ass off for Parcells, Sporano and Ireland. But lets be honest. This team is not going to win. They are not talented enough. I am guilty of over valuing alot of these guys myself.

Point well taken. Team is bad all over in a number of different ways. But, the team also has some pretty talented players.

"Nappy Roots wrote:

One thing I never can understand is how people like to throws INTs away or incompletes away that were tippee by defensive lineman, QBs are responsible for that as well.

Absolutely.

"Bumrush wrote:

Wrong. Andre Johnson has SINGLE HANDEDLY beaten this team and bailed out his QB multiple times over the years... We are one of many examples where Johnson made plays that were nearly impossible with Houston trailing or in danger of losing. When Andre Johnson drops a catchable ball we all gasp in awe and shock. When Brandon Marshall drops one, we shake our heads and say "Here we go again". I don't see Andre Johnson taking plays off or stopping mid route. I don't see Andre Johnson plastered all over the nightly news after another domestic violence assault.

Making a comparison between the two is laughable, especially if your primary target is Henne.

If you had to do it all over again, would you trade two 2nd round picks for the production of Brandon Marshall or is he being held back by Henne just like Chambers was his entire career here? At what point does Marshall shoulder part of the blame for our offensive woes?

Andre Johnson used to lead the league in drops each year. He's gotten better though. But year in year out, when Chambers was here, when you looked up drop statistics to see where Chambers was, Andre Johnson was at the top. Reggie Wayne too.

"ckparrothead wrote:

Point well taken. Team is bad all over in a number of different ways. But, the team also has some pretty talented players.

Your probably right. You certainly know alot more than i do about talent evaluation. I am just really frustrated with what seems like a real lack of depth. Marvin Mitchell is going to start this week. That really bothers me. It seems like ILB has been an issue with this roster since Parcells and crew took over. We are all fans and we have been clamoring about it since the Indy monday night game 2 years ago. And as soon as Dansby goes down, we have a guy we signed 3 weeks ago who has to start. Maybe that is the norm and i am just not aware. But that is troubling to me. And to repeat the point Boomer made about the shuffling at CB, with guys being cut, then brought back, then signed this week (Nate Jones) to play, just seems dysfunctional to me. Bottom line i have lost faith in this group. And that doesnt mean i wont be watching this week and pulling for this team.

After 2 weeks PFF had Marshall as the #7 WR, and Henne as the #6 QB.

"MonstBlitz wrote:

Yes, Marshall should have made the catch. He's a big time NFL receiver, and big time receivers are supposed to make those catches.

That being said, it's not as easy a catch as some on here think. Armando makes it seem like 5 yards to the back of the end zone is a huge amount of space. It's a tiny amount when you're focusing on catching the ball, slowing down in time and getting your feet in bounds.

Not making excuses. He should have caught the ball. But it wasn't a ridiculously easy catch either. In my mind, the impressive TD he had later in the game made it a wash. Can neither blame him or praise him in this game, IMHO.

This is hogwash IMO. Not bashing please dont take it as such. BUT to say because he made a play before it excuses the miss as if they were independent of each other in that he didnt make the second because of the miss, that is it wasnt like if he had made the first, the second wasnt needed or wouldnt have been made nor those 7 points needed so the end result was teh same. had he made that first one it adds 7 to our score and puts us ahead which changes the scope of the game. It most definitely isnt a wash because that drop affected the outcome. No way is it a wash and marshall most definitely contributed to the loss. IMO it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

If this premise is true then you cant blame Henne for his misses if he made other plays that "wash" the miss.

The fact is, games are won and lost on big plays. Sometimes teams can get away with not making a big play. But, not in low scoring, tight games.

Watching that drop all that I thought of was a very similar Ted Ginn drop. Give BM a different #. Change the culture and frame of mind. It was a makable catch. But, he did not want to sell out. Perhaps part of the problem is the stadium itself and the lack of room beyond the endzone. Had he sold out, there might well have been an injury. He went down hard as it was. There should be a good 3-4 more yards of turf beyond where the field is.

I think the catch in question, a guy like Brandon Marshall should probably catch that about 6 in 10. But I'd note he similarly had a problem with an over-the-shoulder that looked a lot like that against the Packers in 2010.

Some guys are good at some things and not great at other things. The over the shoulder catch is probably not the greatest aspect of his game. But he gives you PLENTY of other plays.

Looked like he tried to Ginn it back to the defender.

"Da 'Fins wrote:

The fact is, games are won and lost on big plays. Sometimes teams can get away with not making a big play. But, not in low scoring, tight games.

Watching that drop all that I thought of was a very similar Ted Ginn drop. Give BM a different #. Change the culture and frame of mind. It was a makable catch. But, he did not want to sell out. Perhaps part of the problem is the stadium itself and the lack of room beyond the endzone. Had he sold out, there might well have been an injury. He went down hard as it was. There should be a good 3-4 more yards of turf beyond where the field is.

1. It was not an easy catch. Fully extended, totally over the shoulder with your back turned to the ball and QB, that's not easy. I know, because when scouting WRs, you flag when a guy shows proficiency doing that because it's more rare than you would think. Add to that Jason Allen pushing him in the back while he was catching it, and him having to try and pay attention to how much runway he had left before he goes out of bounds, it's a difficult catch. One he probably should have made, but that doesn't deserve having all these sh-t fits thrown about it because he didn't.

2. Why ignore the body of work? Especially, why pretend that he hadn't already made like 5 SICK plays for you right there in that game? It's ridiculous.

"ckparrothead wrote:

That IS a tough catch. There's no two ways about it. It's fully over the shoulder, his back turned to the QB and the ball. He has to get full extension to get his hands on it. And he's trying to haul it back in while Jason Allen has his elbow digging into Brandon's back pushing him.

That's a tough catch.

Only because we lost, and because people don't want to say Henne played poorly in the game, is this catch becoming such a big effing deal.

But Andre Johnson, universally hailed around here and elsewhere as this God amongst men, had an even easier over the shoulder vertical ball go right through his mitts and bread basket, over top of Nolan Carroll who did NOT get his hands on the ball (and wasn't really even close, when you see the end zone view).

Brandon Marshall did way more than enough in that game to help out the offense and Chad Henne. His being so awesome is the reason we got that touchdown in the first place. It wasn't like that was some great throw by Henne that got the touchdown. He just throw the ball on a short hitch to Marshall and said, go be Brandon Marshall. And so Brandon Marshall was himself and totally b-tched Jason Allen, got the TD. There were other plays too, like that conversion where Henne threw it to Marshall way short and somehow in his RAC, Marshall managed to stay in bounds and stab the ball over the line. That kept the offense moving. Then there was another play where Johnathan Joseph had perfect coverage on Marshall and Henne threw the ball up to him a little too inside, and Brandon just totally reached around behind Joseph's helmet and snatched the ball away from him, a highlight reel play that isn't going to end up on highlight reels because we lost and because it didn't get a touchdown.

But no. The only thing people can talk about is him not quite managing to haul in a ball at full speed with full extension with Jason Allen pushing him in the back.

Sorry, but no CK. That is NOT a difficult/tough catch. Its not an easy, but not a tough one either. Marshall has to run under the ball put his hands out and watch the ball in. Hell he could of tapped his feet and just fell right there. I think any person whose played wideout can tell you thats not a tough catch if they are a hands catcher and not a body catcher. He's an NFL wideout. Its not tough. A tough catch would be the one he made over 2 defenders on the Henne streak earlier in the game. A tough catch would be the catch Hartline made on the sideline. Thats a tough catch. Not Marshall's drop.

"Robert Horry wrote:

Sorry, but no CK. That is NOT a difficult/tough catch. Its not an easy, but not a tough one either. Marshall has to run under the ball put his hands out and watch the ball in. Hell he could of tapped his feet and just fell right there. I think any person whose played wideout can tell you thats not a tough catch if they are a hands catcher and not a body catcher. He's an NFL wideout. Its not tough. A tough catch would be the one he made over 2 defenders on the Henne streak earlier in the game. A tough catch would be the catch Hartline made on the sideline. Thats a tough catch. Not Marshall's drop.

I disagree. It is not as easy a catch as you make it out to be. Not with him having to pay attention to how much space he had before he goes out of bounds, and also having Jason Allen's elbow and arm push him in the back as he's trying to haul it in. Based on all my experience watching and evaluating wide receivers, that catch doesn't happen often enough for me to conclude that it's not a difficult catch.