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The Marshall TD Drop

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Southbeach, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Andre Johnson used to lead the league in drops each year. He's gotten better though. But year in year out, when Chambers was here, when you looked up drop statistics to see where Chambers was, Andre Johnson was at the top. Reggie Wayne too.
     
  2. creasy

    creasy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Your probably right. You certainly know alot more than i do about talent evaluation. I am just really frustrated with what seems like a real lack of depth. Marvin Mitchell is going to start this week. That really bothers me. It seems like ILB has been an issue with this roster since Parcells and crew took over. We are all fans and we have been clamoring about it since the Indy monday night game 2 years ago. And as soon as Dansby goes down, we have a guy we signed 3 weeks ago who has to start. Maybe that is the norm and i am just not aware. But that is troubling to me. And to repeat the point Boomer made about the shuffling at CB, with guys being cut, then brought back, then signed this week (Nate Jones) to play, just seems dysfunctional to me. Bottom line i have lost faith in this group. And that doesnt mean i wont be watching this week and pulling for this team.
     
  3. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    After 2 weeks PFF had Marshall as the #7 WR, and Henne as the #6 QB.
     
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  4. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is hogwash IMO. Not bashing please dont take it as such. BUT to say because he made a play before it excuses the miss as if they were independent of each other in that he didnt make the second because of the miss, that is it wasnt like if he had made the first, the second wasnt needed or wouldnt have been made nor those 7 points needed so the end result was teh same. had he made that first one it adds 7 to our score and puts us ahead which changes the scope of the game. It most definitely isnt a wash because that drop affected the outcome. No way is it a wash and marshall most definitely contributed to the loss. IMO it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

    If this premise is true then you cant blame Henne for his misses if he made other plays that "wash" the miss.
     
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  5. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    The fact is, games are won and lost on big plays. Sometimes teams can get away with not making a big play. But, not in low scoring, tight games.

    Watching that drop all that I thought of was a very similar Ted Ginn drop. Give BM a different #. Change the culture and frame of mind. It was a makable catch. But, he did not want to sell out. Perhaps part of the problem is the stadium itself and the lack of room beyond the endzone. Had he sold out, there might well have been an injury. He went down hard as it was. There should be a good 3-4 more yards of turf beyond where the field is.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think the catch in question, a guy like Brandon Marshall should probably catch that about 6 in 10. But I'd note he similarly had a problem with an over-the-shoulder that looked a lot like that against the Packers in 2010.

    Some guys are good at some things and not great at other things. The over the shoulder catch is probably not the greatest aspect of his game. But he gives you PLENTY of other plays.
     
  7. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Looked like he tried to Ginn it back to the defender.
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    1. It was not an easy catch. Fully extended, totally over the shoulder with your back turned to the ball and QB, that's not easy. I know, because when scouting WRs, you flag when a guy shows proficiency doing that because it's more rare than you would think. Add to that Jason Allen pushing him in the back while he was catching it, and him having to try and pay attention to how much runway he had left before he goes out of bounds, it's a difficult catch. One he probably should have made, but that doesn't deserve having all these sh-t fits thrown about it because he didn't.

    2. Why ignore the body of work? Especially, why pretend that he hadn't already made like 5 SICK plays for you right there in that game? It's ridiculous.
     
  9. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Sorry, but no CK. That is NOT a difficult/tough catch. Its not an easy, but not a tough one either. Marshall has to run under the ball put his hands out and watch the ball in. Hell he could of tapped his feet and just fell right there. I think any person whose played wideout can tell you thats not a tough catch if they are a hands catcher and not a body catcher. He's an NFL wideout. Its not tough. A tough catch would be the one he made over 2 defenders on the Henne streak earlier in the game. A tough catch would be the catch Hartline made on the sideline. Thats a tough catch. Not Marshall's drop.
     
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  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I disagree. It is not as easy a catch as you make it out to be. Not with him having to pay attention to how much space he had before he goes out of bounds, and also having Jason Allen's elbow and arm push him in the back as he's trying to haul it in. Based on all my experience watching and evaluating wide receivers, that catch doesn't happen often enough for me to conclude that it's not a difficult catch.
     
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  11. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Its not an "easy" catch nor a tough one. Its a catch that must be made. The elbow and back is not relevant in it. Getting pushed in the back affects the catch, but not to the degree it seems you believe it does. Based on my experience of actually catching those everyday in practice for 8 years and in games, its not a difficult catch for a NFL elite wideout.
     
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  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    While you obviously have extensive experience evaluating yourself and what you were good at and not good at doing, based on what I've seen from evaluating hundreds of wide receivers over the years, yes I do believe that was a fairly difficult catch situation, one that is very commonly not come up with even by GOOD receivers. In fact, Andre Johnson failed to come up with one in a similar situation right there in that very game.

    So, I disagree.
     
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  13. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    There is no doubting that there were certainly other inefficiencies on offense that led to our loss. Whether Henne played poorly or not has nothing to do with the fact that our supposed all-star, all-pro missed on a very catchable ball, one that he should have made, albeit difficult. Not to mention what that would have done for the rest of the team, the energy of scoring there and giving us a much better chance of pulling things out, Henne's confidence, changing how the Texans called the rest of the game, etc. This is exactly the type of play that most would have crucified Ted Ginn's family or Chris Chambers a few years ago. Again, that it wasn't necessarily an easy catch is very true, however it's also true that it was a very catchable ball. It almost sounds as if you were trying to justify your disdain for Henne by lessening the effect of a play one of our stars should have made and plays our opposition should have made ??

    I'm not arguing with you that Henne didn't have a stellar game...but there are limits to what blame you can put on even Henne...
     
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  14. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    To me that is a catch you count on your premierre wide receiver making. Was it "easy" maybe not , however imo it would not have been a great or spectacular catch either.

    If you pick either Henne or Marshall to "blame" on not getting the TD , it is an easy , obvious choice . Sure the throw could have been perfect , it wasn't , it was however more than good enough that you want/expect/count on your difference maker at wideout to make to get you a lead in a game you really need to win.

    Elite players need to make elite plays , if they don't then they aren't elite and then that means you need to get them . Sure they misfire on some , but overall they make them when they need to. IMO .
     
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  15. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    And yet, even elite NFL receivers routinely do not make it. CK has already mentioned that the consensus top WR in the business failed to make such a catch in the very same game. And if you look around the league in any given week, chances are that you'll find a handful of similar "drops" by top wideouts. Saying that it must not happen doesn't make it not happen.
     
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  16. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I played wr it isnt the easiest catch but it isnt a highlite reeal catch either. It is also a catch an elite #1 should catch 8 out of 10 times. Yes he made other plays, but you cant excuse a mistake for one because he made others when and then say he didnt contribute to teh loss. That is what we traded for and paid teh money for, so that Marshall would make those plays
     
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  17. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    I don't think its evaluating me. I think its being on the field everyday with other wideouts and coaches constantly watching everything first hand. I think its being at combines with NFL prospects and camps and understanding the nuances of being a wideout. I think its learning from people like Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith, Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, and Art Monk that its not a difficult catch. Its not from evaluating myself.
     
  18. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    You will also find wideouts dropping wide open slants and hitch routes. You also see them dropping drag routes and simple bubble screen passes.

    Does that make all of those catches difficult to make?
     
  19. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You Club Member

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    You'll also find that elite wide receivers can drop any form of pass. That catch was not easy nor difficult... however it was a play that should have been made.
     
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  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree with this. I want my player to think it's not a difficult catch. I want my player to think it's routine and that he should catch that every time in that situation. I don't want my player to ever think in that situation that it was OK that he didn't come up with that ball, because it would have been a difficult catch and Andre Johnson just dropped a similar one in the same game.

    However, as a coach and/or evaluator, you're forced to adopt a more realistic, reality-based perspective.

    One big mistake a lot of people make is they just label a guy a "top" player and then pretend that means they're all cookie-cutter the same, no uniqueness to them at all, a strength/weakness profile, nothing. No plays that they make that most other guys don't versus plays they don't make that maybe some other guys would. They just say "oh you're a top player you should be awesome at everything". That's really just not the case. I don't think Brandon Marshall is particularly strong over the shoulder. In my experience as well as the experience of many other scouts and evaluators whose opinions I've read on this very subject, over the shoulder is a specific area for evaluation. What that means is, there's a lot of variance. Some are good at it, some are not so good at it, some are middle of the road, etc. It's a specific area of evaluation, just like running after the catch, hands catching versus body catching, foot awareness, etc. While some that are good at this particular skill may have trouble imagining others that aren't, it happens, and it's still not a high percentage catch in the National Football League even necessarily amongst the very best of the best players.

    I don't know that over the shoulder in that kind of vertical situation has ever been a particular strong suit for him, and you'll notice last year he had another failure on a pretty similar ball and similar situation against the Packers, except that time he hauled the ball in but failed to realize where his feet were.

    Luckily there are a lot of things Brandon Marshall can do physically attacking the ball in the air, and especially running after the catch, that just nobody else out there except a very few can do. And I also was pretty impressed at the separation Brandon was able to create vertically on that play getting behind Jason Allen, who is a fast human...which is again, not something every receiver can do.

    He'll get those. I imagine it's like a 50/50 thing for him. I would want it to be slightly better than 50/50 for him, which why I said 6 in 10.
     
  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Exactly the attitude I would like my players to have and coach them to have.
     
  22. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    More or less, that is why the NFL is the ultimate team game, one play on offense, the game changes, one play on Defense, the game changes, one play on ST the game changes.

    To me, that means the key is to have players who bring pressure into those situations, be the attacker and not the defender at all times.

    Beast flubbed the reception, outside of Greg Camarillo every Wr drops passes, that is a part of the game.
     
  23. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Careful bro. Your agenda is showing. One guy makes one post in this thread and now we're scapegoating? The past is the past. A lot of people are banned right now. Keep it on the topic of le thread si-vous plait.
     
  24. Dolfan984

    Dolfan984 Underrated Free Agent

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    Brandon Marshall is on pace for almost 1800 yards and 8 TDs. As "bad" as he is, he's the only player on this offense who's actually having a good year so far. He's putting these stats up with a very average QB and a bad offensive line. Marshall is the least of the teams problems, he's actually one of our few highlights on the team IMO.
     
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  25. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I think what some people lose sight of is, yes big players make big plays and that was a big play we needed, but big players don't make the big play 100% of the time. Someone people are trying to claim other posters are making excuses for Marshall or we like him so we give him a pass and that is 100% not correct. He should of caught that, and you needed your top play maker to make that play. He didn't and it happens. So we are evaluating Marshall in a sense that he had a very good game, and that's considering the missed opportunity that he should make. If he makes a catch his very good games is evaluated to a really great game.
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Marshall has not played like an all world receiver since he's been here. Henne has not played like an all world QB here either. They both have shown improvements this year. They both are still making mistakes so far, but everyone does.

    Henne making a better decision in X situation might have been the difference in Y ballgame, while Marshall making X catch might have been the difference in Y ballgame. Whatever, who cares.

    What I do know for certain, is that if our defense didn't didn't let Brady hang hall of fame stats on us in the first game, we'd at the very least be 1-1, possibly 2-0. Why the offense is part of the discussion when our defense has regressed to one of the worst in the league is beyond me. Who the hell as an offense that can compete with the other team putting up 500 yards?
     
  27. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    It was a difficult catch. Not easy to make. But it would be nice if our guys EVER did anything extraordinary.
     
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  28. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yet we are trying like hell to excuse marshall for his drops and miscues? I mean seriously Henne is what he is, but to make him teh blame for everything is ridiculous. If henne plays poorly you want people to say Henne played poorly. If marshall plays poorly, you want to say it is hennes fault, if teh defense gives up 517 yards it is Hennes fault he didnt keep teh ball away from Brady.

    Sorry I espect your opinion, but if Henne is what Henne is, then so is everyone else. I mean if you blame henne for that pass then it is simply you had already madde up your mind before even seeing the play.
     
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  29. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    The paradox of Brandon Marshall...

    On the one hand, Marshall makes plays few other WRs can make putting him in an elite category. He can catch a short pass and make a spin move, stiff arm or just run right over DBs with the best of them.

    On the other hand, he makes more bad plays than other elite WRs that then drops him out of the elite category with players like Fitzgerald and Johnson. Unfortunately, Marshall has as many dropped TD passes in a Dolphin uniform as actual TD catches. Marshall has a dismal 4 TD catches in a Dolphin uniform and in the last two games alone he has 2 dropped TD passes and on another couldn't establish inside position on a 2 yard slant as he got jammed and stopped dead in his tracks almost resulting in a pic.

    If these numbers were translated to a QBs it would look something like 10 TD passes, 20 interceptions.

    One play I think he is the best player on the team and the next I think WTF that looked like Ginn.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This is exactly how I view it.

    Nobody even bothered to ask if I thought it was a good throw. I thought it was a great throw. If it was a catch, it would have been a better throw than catch.
     
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  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm sorry but where did I ever say that I "blame" Henne for that non-catch?

    Nowhere.

    And you're right, everyone is what they are. And Brandon Marhsall is a premier WR. He showed that multiple times right there in that game, with catches and plays that go completely untalked about because people would rather emphasize the play he didn't quite make. And I have an idea why various people do that.
     
  32. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    This is the crux of my argument all along. Brandon Marshall had an opportunity to have a great game and he blew it.
    He has to step up and have great games in Miami to be considered an elite WR.
    So far it hasn't happened.
     
  33. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    It's not about difficulty - it's about reasonable expectations and an honest evaluation. Saying that Marshall absolutely has to make that catch is neither reasonable nor honest, based on the simple fact that no WR in this business makes this kind of catch all the time. So reality dictates that I have to reasonably expect, say, 3 drops out of 10. Or make it 2, 4, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that this drop falls into the category of reasonable expectations unless Marshall turns it into a habit. Then we have a problem. The difference to a slant route or a bubble screen lies in the numbers. If my WR drops 4 out of 10 on screens, I'd say that this was well below any reasonable expection.

    It's not so different from QB play, really. I can't actually expect my QB to hit every open receiver. Even the Bradys and Mannings miss them, sometimes at crucial game situations, too. But I can reasonably expect my QB to hit open guys at a certain percentage, in line with what a good starters at the position accomplish. Yeah, it certainly would have been neat if Marshall got that pass, but unless he consistently starts to drop those, then it's a simple case of variance.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Perfectly stated.
     
  35. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck Club Member

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    It is amazing how similar this argument is to the Ginn drop vs the Colts a few years ago. He had 11 catches for 108 yards but dropped the game winner in the end zone while getting hit by the defender.

    I realize Marshall is 100x's the WR Ginn will ever be and I'm not trying to draw comparisons - just amazing we find ourselves in the exact same situation 2 years later.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The ball wasn't around his waist, it was above, out in front, and required extension, much easier catch when your body is going in that direction...i'am just analyzing the catch, I believe Brandon played a very good game and I don't discount the entirety of the game on one drop, but it surely was not Henne's fault either, he made the throw..
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    CK has been right about this team so far, and the staff, I commend him for that. At this point imo, for the level that he criticized, he was wrong about Henne, Daboll, and the combination of Pouncey and Thomas..

    It looks as though I might be wrong about the staff and coach and how good the team projected to be..I have them at game 5 before I cut ties or move on, need to see them play on the road..
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think with all things considering, including the facts that this NEW offense and coordinator are in their first year without an offseason, I think they have played pretty good with some miscues because of the lack of time spent..I see that side improving as the season progresses greatly.
     
  39. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    :up: I mentioned the same thing right after the game when the complaints started and several times since. Talk about scapegoating. It was not an easy catch, but that is besides the point. It happens to the best of them.....obviously. Marshall has made some really good plays and can make some great YAC. The guy fights for every YAC, even if it's just a couple. Heck, this was the 2nd game of the 1st year when they actually have been using him right and making real efforts to get him the ball and get the ball down field. He's made some good plays and the potential is obvious.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree, it's similar. But Brandon's body of work, not just in his career but in the game itself, has to factor in. When you look catch for catch at Ginn's performance in the Colts game, 11 catches for 108 yards, versus Brandon Marshall's 6 catches for 79 yards and a TD...you know, numbers be damned, Ginn didn't really DO anything that was all that impressive. He caught a lot of balls underneath the coverage in the Colts' wide open zones which Pennington found. He only got 7 yards after the catch in that game. 7 yards! On 11 catches! That play in the end zone would have actually been IMO the first and only time he was asked, and delivered, something really above-the-rim as far as doing things that other players on average couldn't do. But you look at the game Marshall had against the Texans, he did several things that were just hard and very impressive. That catch he didn't make...that wouldn't have even been his most impressive play of the day. That first down stretch he made, that was a really impressive play. That one catch he made on the other side of Joseph's helmet, that was just spectacular. That RAC play where he totally embarrassed Jason Allen into the end zone, that was vintage. I think there was another RAC play he made that was really impressive.

    He was having a great day and he just failed to make one grab. It happens. And on that kind of catch, it happens a lot more often than a guy dropping a simple slant or something like that.
     
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