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The Marshall TD Drop

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Southbeach, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Absolutely not in any way Henne's "fault". In fact, it was a great throw. Henne absolutely did what he could to make that play happen. But there's a reason it's a low percentage play.
     
  2. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Which begs the question.....

    last time a guy on our team did anything extraordinary? The Fasano one handed catch, week 1 is decent..before then....when?
     
  3. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree Marshall is a great receiver. I also think that all receivers make mistakes even elite receivers. But as you have correctly pointed out with Henne in the past, it is WHEN those mistakes are made. If Johnsons drop would have come back to haunt Hou last week it would have been mentioned more but they were up at the time. Marshall's drop came at a time that we NEEDED that play. Henne last year his issues werent that he threw ints alone, but rather they were either head scratchers or late in teh game when we are attempting a comeback.

    Marshall played a great game. But he was part of the team loss to Hou which is what the point of the thread and many responses are about. So I apologize if and it appears I did that when you said you were tired of henne excuses that you were relating it to this particular topic. I am only reading this or commenting on teh Marshall miss, I am not getting into Henne debate anymore with anyone. TO me that has been debated enough, at teh end of the year then we can add his play in 11 and debate again with new data. I was merely talking this play.
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Wrong how?

    Chad Henne is 0-2 with a 79 QB Rating, having guided an offense that has scored 18.5 ppg.

    Brian Daboll, see the above ppg, the weird calls on 3rd down, goal line and short yardage, how often Chad Henne is getting hit due to the changes he's made to the offense, and how that could lead to injuries and a third year of a Brian Daboll offense ranking poorly in points per game...I wouldn't rush to any snap judgments about Daboll yet. There are encouraging things, and discouraging things.

    Wrong about Pouncey how? I said from the start I consider him a better Center prospect than his brother Maurkice, but that I question the wisdom of taking that position as high as they did, and therefore I graded it as a C. The returns are somehow already in and I was wrong on that?

    I think you're rushing to judgment a little bit.
     
  5. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Can't really blame him on those interceptions. That changes his passer rating quite a bit. You can hate excuses as much as you like but an end of game interception and a one-on-one matchup of Colombo vs. Mario Williams are not Henne's fault. If anything I wonder how Daboll allowed it.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    To be honest Brandon Marshall has done extraordinary things each week. But that's how good he is. He makes the extraordinary look ordinary. But I remember too well what it was like to have a receivers unit that almost never made the kinds of plays that this receivers unit makes happen like 5 times a week at least. Consider also that Brian Hartline sideline catch.
     
  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sec, Iam not a big Hartline fan, but the catch he made I thought was extraordinary..
     
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  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I disagree especially about the Texans INT. It's his job to work the pocket especially on that play in the shadow of his own end zone. ONE STEP FORWARD after his drop, and Mario does not hit that arm. That's it. A quarterback is charged with keeping his feet alive in the pocket and working it, helping his OL and helping his self. If he doesn't do that and the result is a play like that, it's absolutely his fault.

    As for the Pats interception I have already said many times, fine, take out the garbage time INT. But that also eliminates his 8 for 12 for 102 yards and a TD aside from that INT. Either way his full season rating thus far is a 79.
     
  9. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I think we should petition the NFL to come up with a "NOT THE QBS FAULT" category on INTs.
     
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  10. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    I think we need 3 categories:

    Not the QBs fault
    Definitely not the QBs fault
    Chad Henne
     
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  11. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    There is always a case made that a QB could have avoided pressure or had better ball placement - but it would be interesting if an INT was a direct result of another player if there was a way to attribute a turnover to them as well. Same on the defensive side - if a guy hits a guy or tips a pass and another player recovers - they should receive the recognition for creating the turnover.

    Like every player had a turnover stat that kept track of the amount of turnovers were a direct result of their play. (Obviously it would be more or less pointless, as most guys would have 1-2 all year, but it would be interesting if there are guys out there that create/cause more than others).
     
  12. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Well according to a lot people on here 90% of Hennes bad throws arent his fault, so why not just have a not his fault throws. Take out the Incompletes and INTs as well.
     
  13. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    Have to chime in on this topic.

    I think it's safe to say that the Marshall trade was indeed a good one. 2 2nd round picks is not alot for a player with this talent. For those of us that watch other games on top of the Dolphins, we've all seen how good Brandon Marshall truly is. We know that he was used VERY poorly last year being asked to run hitch and out routes that basically eliminated any YAC opportunities. The guy is VERY physical, can get behind corners, and obviously can make the circus catches. With all of that, Marshall has his faults. His biggest fault is his tendancy to drop balls and I don't mean just well thrown over the shoulder balls (mind you that catch in the end zone was not easy by any stretch but it was definitely still a drop). Marshall has also had some "lack of concentration" drops in both Denver and Miami. We also know he has off-field issues consistently.

    So, looking at his strengths and his faults, I see only 3 other guys that I would take over Marshall (AJ, Fitz, and Calvin Johnson). Hakeem Nicks is another I would consider due to the fact he has the hands of a fairy tale giant. So that puts Marshall at worst, the 5th best WR in the game today (looking at all his tools and faults included). Trading 2 2nd round picks for a Top 5 WR that at the time was only 26, in my mind is a steal.

    I also recall a guy who had off-field issues all the time and consistently had the most drops year over year. Here's a guy that will go down as a Top 10 WR of all time and any team would trade 2 2nd round picks for him in his prime. Terrel Owens is very similar to Brandon Marshall and looking back at the early 2000's, I think most of us would have loved to have him on our team.

    As for the Chad Henne excuses, I've been one who would often throw out reasons for his lack of success. Obviously the whole offensive gameplan last year was terrible. He's still young. He has no running game. This was a combination of me HOPING and turly believing that we have to give him more time. It's this year or bust. He looked good against NE, not so good last week. The pick should not be thrown out b/c his arm was hit. He has to move in the pocket better. That simple.

    We have yet to see if Henne can turn into a franchise QB, we are all hoping he will and there is still time to prove it. One thing that should not be re-hashed over and over again is whether or not Brandon Marshall is an elite WR in this league. Go look at some tape of him in Denver, look at the catch on the sidelines in the beginning of the Pats game, look at some of the other plays from the Texans game that CK mentioned. The guy is a stud and 2 2nd round picks for him was a steal.
     
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  14. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Even the Henne defenders have to get on board with the fact that this is sink or swim.

    There was no excuse for his Texans game. He played poorly.

    I set the number for a "successful" season for Henne at a number ABOVE 85 for QB rating. I still feel that way, although my confidence in him achieving that number is certainly shaken.
     
  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    SO FAR, I think Marshall has been worth the picks and the money. But I want to emphasize the SO FAR part of it because now the man has Borderline Personality Disorder and...well, I've already said it. Wife. Tears. Noose. Alpaca.
     
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  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Personally I think the only thing that could potentially save Chad Henne's career with the Miami Dolphins would be a 90+ QB Rating in 2011. Anything below that, he might be back next year, but so will a young player that could and probably should replace him, perhaps sooner than later.

    Especially when you consider that 19 quarterbacks currently have 85 QB Ratings or better. Like I said, you can't play in a vaccuum. This is a league. You have to be better than everyone else. If Henne's efficiency rises because of some leaguewide trend where defenses are having trouble keeping up with offenses for whatever reason...that doesn't count.
     
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  17. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    I find it hard to see a situation where Marshall plays way beyond what we gave up for him - but it is easy to see a situation where it blows up in our face. That isn't a knock on how good he is - but more a statement on how much we gave up.

    And the fact that it is hard to see a scenario where the deal comes out looking like a steal makes me wonder if it should reflect all that positive on Ireland.
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Exactly right. Agree with all of this. He injected risk in order to get reward, which I get, and I'm not against at all...but right now this looks like TOO MUCH risk, given his diagnosis and what I keep hearing about it.
     
  19. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Couple of points. With Ginn, i think he had 3-4 or more drive saving catches. i.e. several on 3rd AND 4th down. He was good. Let's not discount that. We're not even in position to have a game winning TD if it weren't for Ginn.

    That said, let's not forget Ginn also dropped another pass in the end zone. Not the game ender that we all remember. But a pass eerily similar to the one Marshall dropped. There is debate about whether he could have caught it in bounds because it was very close to the back of the EZ. This time he beat his man by several steps.
     
  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    About the marshall trade. Meh, only if Henne turns it up 3 notches. If not, it's like buying rims with no car to put it on.
     
  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    He had catches that saved drives, but they were still the very same kind that I was talking about. Catches where he didn't really have to do anything other than sit underneath the zone and let Pennington find him. He didn't do anything superlative to get open, he didn't get any significant yards after the catch, he didn't make some circus catch that saved the drive even though it was a poorly thrown ball. Sorry but Ginn's performance in that game was like a 4 and Marshall's in this game was like an 8.
     
  22. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I dont have to admit he played poorly, I will admit his stat line was poor. But he was hit alot, under pressure constantly, receivers dropped balls. Pocket presence on the int? I can see it but it wasnt like he sat there for 7 seconds either. It wasnt like he held iit long, he was literally a 1/4 second late.

    Now. I am not saying he played great, he didnt. he was avg, but he made plays, for a while, he was the offense, no run til Thomas got going, no protection. He had drops. But he also threw low on a couple passes, a couple of teh batted balls were because he set his feet too soon thus eliminating the ability to slide to open the lane.

    All in all, he wasnt bad vs Houston IMO, but he wasnt good enough.
     
  23. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    Hmm. 2 2nd round picks for a 26 yr old Top 5 WR. Are you saying you can't see a situation where Marshall plays beyond 2 2nd round picks? Are 2nd round draft picks really worth that much to everyone? I'll say this, just imagine this offense without him on the field. Probably a bottom 3 offensive team without him.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    In the shadow of your own end zone, every quarterback knows, or should know rather, that you need to be cognizant of pressure, work the pocket and get that ball OUT of your hands. He was backed up at his own goal line and kept his feet dead after his drop, took his sweet *** time getting rid of the ball, and he paid for it. And that's really all that needs to be said about it.

    On a day when Daniel Thomas was running for 100+ yards at like 6 yards per carry, on a day when Brandon Marshall was making highlight reel plays look ordinary, the offense scored 13 points.

    If that's good enough for you, well...so be it. It's not good enough for me.
     
  25. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    You are leaving out his 5 year, $47 million dollar contract as well.

    I'm not trying to downplay how good Brandon Marshall is, or the fact that he is the most important part of our offense.

    But two consecutive 2nd round picks is a HUGE price to pay for a guy that touches the ball 6-7 times a game. I struggle to see a situation where he so completely outplays the price tag that it seems like a steal - especially when you factor in the personality disorder.

    Look at it this way - the Phins bet the farm on Ricky Williams by trading two first rounders. He performed above and beyond what we ever thought he would - but without the team around him, his personal performance didn't make this team a Super Bowl contender. And that is from a position that gets WAY more touches than a WR who sees the ball 7-8 times a game.

    Then Ricky's personal life got in the way of his professional life and he left the team for a year or two. You can more or less point to that event as the last time this franchise was relevant. Even with Ricky coming back and having a few more productive years, it killed the franchise.

    While I'm being dramatic, my point is that giving up a ton for one guy rarely puts you over the edge unless you already have a great team. And when you gamble away a lot of your assets on a guy that you can never quite count on, it has a chance of blowing up in your face much greater than their impact on the field.
     
  26. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

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    I think it's pretty cheap, actually. If you want a WR as talented and productive as Marshall, you usually have to shell out a 1st round selection in the draft and face the very real possibility of a bust. Yes, you might just get lucky like Denver did with Marshall in the later rounds, but the stark reality is that you almost certainly won't.

    If we had traded up for, say, Jeremy Maclin in 2009, for instance, I doubt that anyone would say it was a HUGE price today.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I've been a big backer of the Marshall trade generally speaking but they spent the equivalent of a 1st rounder on the dude and then gave him $50 million only to find out that all that trouble that seemed to plague him in Denver is NOT really behind him, because he has Borderline Personality Disorder. He's the most talented member of the team, IMO...no denying that...but it's like the Dolphins have stepped on a land mine and are aware of it, and know that as soon as they lift their foot, they go kablooey.
     
  28. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    I should probably be more clear that I don't think it was a BAD trade at this point by any means. Just that it will always be remembered as either a fair trade or a bad trade - and that, to me, means that Ireland shouldn't get some huge gold star for pulling it off. He didn't do anything spectacular - he paid market price and took a risk on a guy that could easily blow up in our face.

    I also somewhat disagree that top-end WR are always as expensive as you say - after Fitz, Andre Johnson and Calvin Johnson, most of the top WR in the league last year were late 1st or later picks. And while there is always the chance they bust, there is always the chance that Brandon Marshall will get stabbed by his wife in the offseason.

    I guess it depends on your opinion of Marshall - if you put him in the Fitz/Johnsons category, then we may have gotten him cheap, I'd put him more in that 5-10 range and the normal cost for that is a late 1st or 2nd rounder. The bust factor is canceled out by the personality disorder and huge contract.
     
  29. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Another point on Marshall is the fact that he and Henne have NEVER been on the same page. Part of that is the fact that Henne sucks, but I don't think you can overlook the fact that Marshall punts balls at practice, wings balls at the sideline during games and gets stabbed by his wife in the offseason.

    There have already been 3 plays in the redzone (not counting the drop) that were not TDs simply because Henne and Marshall weren't on the same page. For as great as Marshall is, that has to be fixed before he is having the kind of impact that would equal what we gave up.

    (Again - Marshall is a beast and I'm not blaming him for the RZ issues. I'm saying that the miscommunications are what is holding us back)
     
  30. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    I'm willing to bet that Marshall drops a few passes or does something really stupid in Cleveland on Sunday that hurts his team
     
  31. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    If he and Henne have another brain fart at the goal line I could definitely see something going down.

    In fact, if something like that does happen again, it will be very interesting to see his reaction. The old Marshall would probably throw a fit - if there is another miscue and we see Henne and Marshall talking it out calmly on the sidelines, I think it will say a lot about how he's handling the disease.

    (And yes, I realize trying to glean something off of a hypothetical situation with Brandon Marshall is flawed, but just trying to point out something that would have set him off in the past.)
     
  32. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    I hear you on the off-field issues. It's a risk no question and we have seen that risk bite us in the arse before. The primary difference I see is that Ricky cost 2 1st round picks in a totally different time of the NFL. It was still somewhat a run first (or at least more balanced) league and Wanstedt / Spielman were stupid enough to mortgage the farm for a guy who had a major question mark with his character. Trading 2 2nd round picks is not even close to 2 1st round picks and I would go as far as to say that Marshall is just as important to this team as Ricky was in the early 2000's. Don't forget what else Marshall does to this offense aside from touching the ball 6 to 7 times a game. If he's covered 1:1, you take a shot to him and he's more often than not going to make a play on the ball. Shade a safety over to his side and now it should open up the running game more and more importantly give another guy 1:1 coverage. In today's NFL, a player of his caliber is very important to every aspect of the offense and as I said, in my opinion equally important to an elite running back in the early 2000's.

    My ultimate point here is that 2 1st round picks are FAR more valuable than 2 2nd rounders which makes the trade for me, a steal.
     
  33. PhinsPhan23

    PhinsPhan23 New Member

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    This is a whole different issue that has nothing to do with whether or not Brandon Marshall was well worth 2 2nd round picks and a big contract. I'm not saying Ireland should be praised for making the trade for Marshall b/c frankly he has made some poor decisions that have affected how much Marshall can truly affect this team. My point is simply that Marshall is worth more than 2 2nd round picks taking into account the off-field issues and contract.
     
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  34. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    To be fair , both those players contributed to that "not good enough".

    The interception that lead to an easy score wasn't Henne's fault , I don't think he can be "blamed".

    The fumble came at an inorportune time , certainly more on DT that the interception was on Henne.

    The No catch was more on Marshall than on , Henne , imo , so while Henne certainly could have played better , those are just a few incidents that lead to him not being good enough.

    Henne has had more than his share of blame , but let's not dump more on him than he deserves.
     
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  35. electrolyte

    electrolyte New Member

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    Exactly. Thread over.

    The reason Dolphin fans are so nitpicky is because the Dolphins get so few opportunities to score, that we (or they) get upset at stuff like this.

    They fail to stop and ask "Why are we getting such few precious opportunities in the first place??!"

    Chad Henne is not an NFL starting caliber QB. That's all. Marshall is out there with some highlight reel plays, Thomas runs for 100+ yards, and our offense scores 13.

    Chad Henne is not the answer.
     
  36. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    From what Chad Henne has shown this year and the improvement from a year ago , I can't say he isn't.

    He hasn't been perfect , but neither has anyone else including the number one pick overall , so to expect Henne wouldn't have made some mistakes these two games is not realistic imo.

    He may never be the QB wanted or maybe needed, but to summarily dismiss him with how many issues the team has shown so far this year is hasty in my estimation.

    I want to see him play the year out , there are bigger issues than him at QB as I see it.
     
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  37. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    That's not exactly true, at least not this year. Only two teams currently are averaging more RZ attempts per game than us (Houston and Washington), while 3 others are tied with us.

    The problem is we've only scored a TD on 4 of our 10 attempts, all while getting a turnover on downs, 2 missed FGs, an INT and 2 made FGs. Hell, if we made the 2 FGs we missed, we might even be 1-1 right now.

    Scoring opportunities haven't been an issue this year though.
     
  38. Fintastic

    Fintastic Banned

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    People with a lack of football knowledge find it easiest to blame a struggling offense on the QB. Yet nowhere in this thread do I see the HORRIBLE oline called out. They were AWFUL. NO QB, not precious Ryan or even Marino would have won with that garbage excuse for an oline. Henne is a scapegoat and easy target for the casual fans. Real fans know where the problem lies.
     
  39. Ophinerated

    Ophinerated Preposterous!

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    I agree with you mostly... however, with Dan's footwork, pocket presence, and incredibly fast release... Marino would most certainly have done better and most likely won that game. But that would be comparing a HoF QB and an almost once in a lifetime talent to Henne. That's not fair.

    Tell me on average how long it takes for Marino to make his decision to deliver the ball:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gPLGQRU4M&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL09A2D4E7DEA845C0

    Granted these are highlights, but on almost everyone of these TD passes he makes his decision in 3 seconds or less... the ball is out of his hand.
     
  40. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Great QBs make bad OLs disappear. Rodgers, Big Ben, Vick, Room, and even though he threw a lot of Picks last year Cutler are all examples of bad OLs that their QBs make better.

    Even Henne did it the first week, he got terrible blocking but played well. He made quick decisions and got the ball out. Last game he was more hesitant and less decisive. Obviously I am not saying you can have a trash OL and it doesn't matter, but lets not act like great QBs can't help erase the OLs deficiencies.
     
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