You wouldn't care even if someone did. You've made up your mind and you're sticking to it. That's you're right but don't pretend that you'd consider an alternative argument.
But it's easier to engage in the following mental process: My team isn't winning. I don't know why for sure. Someone must be responsible. It's probably the guy getting the players. He's the bad guy.
Most of us on this board at BARE MINIMUM: - Watch and rewatch every second of every Miami Dolphins game in a 16 game regular season. - Spend hours learning about potential Miami Dolphin draft picks before the draft. - Watch the entire draft and read and study every Dolphin player selected ad naseum. - Read about, analyze, discuss, debate research every personnel move made by this team. - Scour hundreds of articles posted all over the web about the Dolphins. - Spend hours upon hours on this board sharing opinions. - Spend hours reading about moves other teams make, and comparing those moves to the moves made by our team. What else do you think a FAN needs to do to have an informed opinion about a staff member on this team? Think about that for a second before you question a large segment of this board's ambition and intelligence again. Thanks.
Well Wake played 2 years professionally against men who are paid to perform , again he DOMINATED , did you see him play? live? more than a couple of times? I did . He was not a diamond in the rough , a discovery , much like a high draft choice isn't . It was in essence a bidding war , and Wake chose Miami ( kudos for the sales job , again ) in large part because he saw opportunity . I know this because he told an acquaintance who was also a player that played in both leagues. IMO it is no where the same as a later draft pick , that they felt more could/should be . That isn't peanuts look at the salary a lot of players are making , again , they did sign him but it was a very different situation , more along the line of an upper mid level veteran free agent imo.
Then Tony Sparano must have been the worst head coach in history as apparently he had a team overflowing with all star talent yet couldn't even get to .500. Hopefully Philbin can use all stars like Nannee, Fasano and Daniel Thomad in a better manner, otherwise we should fire him too. Any coach worth his salt should be Super Bowlbound with this crew if sure fire hall of famers
What's there to think of? I have eyes. 2 of them in fact. 7-9, 7-9, 6-10. My eyes saw that. That wasn't a figment of my imagination. The downright awful depth chart. My eyes witnessed that not even 10 minutes ago. That's not a figment of my imagination. If you need to make up stats to determine why an NFL GM should keep their job, then you already lost the argument. There is no stat to determine that. How good a GM is can easily be determined with common sense.
If focused on retention, it is not fair to compare a team that has had a coaching change with one that has had the same coaching staff the whole time, especially when the HC of that team also has personnel control. It is well known that new coaches often want a different type of player and want to get rid of some of the prior regime's players and replace them with their own. That is arguably what happened, to some degree, with Vontae, Merling, Langford, and Henne.
good job with all the info. i think a franchise qb makes all the difference in the world when it comes to the preception of what anyone thinks about a gpood or bad gm. as the OP has pointed out, we really didnt have better options at qb til last year. whether we have our franchise qb or not, people will not see ireland as a good gm until we not only have a franchise qb, but we have a good o line to keep him safe and good wrs to throw to. and of course it always helps to have a good run game to keep the pressure off the qb.
It's lazy because it doesn't take a lot of work to dissect. You're right coaching can and will effect the outcome, but seriously bro....do you think this roster that Ireland's fingerprints are all over is bursting with untapped talent?? I don't think this team has been underachieving the past few years I think they just lack talent. Take SF for example, they were a bad football team but the plethora of talent was obvious...they got a great coach and next thing you know they are an idiot Punt returner from the SB. This teams lack of talent is the reason Ireland needs to be fishing with Parcells about now.
Why don't you make a reasoned case for it and see if he, or others, would consider it. Since he's asking for it, I don't see how you can conclude he'd ignore it if you did it. It doesn't have to be as much as what I did, just a couple of facts comparing Ireland's performance to his peers and showing that his performance has been inferior.
Yes, because after I've made a huge deal of someone doing something- ANYTHING, I'll completely write it off. You should be able to do something to prove your point if you claim it's self evident. SOMETHING besides restating your opinion. Have even the slightest idea what your context is. People have over and over gone to lengths to show what a realistic draft success rate looks like, or compare what Ireland has picked up in terms of players to other GMs. Literally 3 or 4 people have made threads like this one, using different kinds of methods and they've all pretty much shown Ireland(Or Ireland-Parcells) to be an average or above average GM. I've seen nothing in terms of reasoned criticism, or someone doing the same kind of thing and finding different results. Instead it's basically people complaining that the team lost a bunch of games last year and that's somehow trumps actually figuring out what Ireland's part in it is, or how good Ireland by himself has actually done.
good point but if we had drafted matt ryan, theres a good chance he would of had a career ending injury without jake long. i think we did the right thing by building our oline first.
I guess you can say it was questionable in the sense that one could technically question it. But he picked a guy who has made 4 Pro Bowl's in 4 years and is arguably the best player at his position. So you can say maybe he should have picked someone else, but you can't say it was a bad pick. For example, the Broncos arguably should have taken Marino in 1983, but it is a little crazy to say taking Elway was a "questionable" pick.
Here are a few things I just can't get past when evaluating Ireland. I can't speak for other GMs because you'd have to see their respective team's circumastances at the time of FA and the draft and whether or not they filled needs or upgraded at weak positions or not. That is very difficult to do. But I can do so with Ireland as a Dolphins fan. In 2008, Ireland took over a team with extreme weaknesses at the following positions: QB S OL WR CB WR: We're no better off now than we were with Ginn and Camarillo as our top WRs S: We're no better off now than we were with a healthy Bell and a healthy Renaldo Hill. I'd even argue we're worse now OL: Here we've had upgrades. But considering the resources we've used, it's not as good as it should be and I think we can all agree on that. And this is a position where we've had several OL coaches under Ireland, IIRC. QB: Let's face it. We got lucky that #4 came out of retirement and Pennington fell into our laps. But the contingency plan (Henne) was a colossal failure, and the inability to recognize this sooner rather than later has cost this organization quite a lot. Tannehill looks good so far. Let's hope he makes up for it. CB: Now with the trade of Vontae, we look no better than that healthy 2007 or 2008 team with Andre Goodman and a younger, healthier Will Allen. So, in essence, I just feel he hasn't done enough. Sure our DL is MUCH better. I'll give him credit for that. But 5 years later and I can find only 1 segment of the team that has been massively upgraded from a 1-15 team. I'd also like to point out that that 1-15 team had an absolute inordinate amount of key injuries(starting QB, RB, CB, what felt like 10 safeties, etc.) that led to that 1-15 season. A relatively healthy Dolphin team wins 4 - 6 games that year, IMO.
I think if you have the first pick in the draft, you don't have a young, established franchise QB on your roster (or one you just drafted highly, i.e., not John Beck), and there's a franchise QB available at that point in the draft, you have to take him. Success in this league is too dependent on the quarterback not to IMO. You essentially don't win at a high level in this league without a franchise QB. It's necessary but not sufficient for Super Bowl contention. That means you get one of those before you go drafting left tackles IMO.
I don't think that's a fair argument. Matt Ryan has had a god-awful LT for a while in Sam Baker, to the point where they could have probably done better with a random player. I wouldn't take Matt Ryan over Jake Long though. Matt Ryan is way better than anything we've had, but #1 overall doesn't float over an elite LT when he's just been good enough to get you blown out of the wildcard round.
And I wouldn't say that, because from the standpoint of the importance of the QB position, they addressed what you need to address to win in this league. Here's an extreme and senseless example just to illustrate the point: what if the Dolphins had used that #1 overall pick on a punter who made four Pro Bowls in four years and was the best punter in the league? Now of course no one would do that, but the situation is analogous IMO: they didn't draft someone at the position that's absolutely essential for success (QB), and they instead drafted one at a position that is NOT essential for success (LT). This is perhaps a big part of the reason why the team still isn't successful!
That is absolutely peanuts compared to what Wake is actually worth. And the talent level in the CFL, especially on defense, is not better than in the SEC or other major conferences. That is why Wake is the very first CFL defensive payer to make a real mark on the NFL. Yes, it was a bidding war but the bidding stopped at "peanuts." If Cam Wake became a free agent now and said he'd sign for $6 milion over 4 years do you seriously think there is a single NFL team that wouldn't do it. How about $10 million over 4 years? $20 million over 4 years? I agree that Wake's talent was apparent. I spent the better part of his first year here arguing that very point with dozens of people who kept saying "yeah, but he can't cover" or "he can't set the edge." Sparano apparently didn't fully see it either because Wake got very few snaps. If you are saying that every NFL GM saw Wake for what he is but were unwilling to pay him more than $5 million over 4 years (with only $1 million guaranteed), then you are quite literally out of your mind.
How many Td's have Ireland draftees scored in his 5 yrs here? I bet the answer to that will stun some folks. Thing is, he plays small ball really well, he just really is not that great at the whole draft thingy when it comes to players who produce what is needed to win in the NFL..Td's.
What was Green Bay's W-L record during Ted's first 4 seasons as GM? It may have been posted, but if it was I missed it.
Ted Thompson built a Superbowl team in Seattle. Ireland has done nothing, and will continue to do nothing.
The fans who are pro Ireland won't change their minds at this point and the fans who think he is in over his head won't either. Time may alter those views , if Miami has a positive season , Thomas becomes a factor back , Egnew produces , Matthews becomes a bonafide #3 wideout etc. and Miami looks like they will legitimately be a playoff team next year those who criticize him should then give credit. If Miami flounders , has too many embarrassing games , there is little or not enough development from so far under producing acquisitions and this draft class then those who stand up for Ireland's body of work need to acknowledge his lack of production as well. For me personally , he doesn't get any more mulligans if he doesn't have this team show well this year. We can lose more games than win , but we need to actually show the playoffs aren't a Christmas wish , that they are legitimately happening , at the latest next year. Just my opinion . I think he is not the GM to accomplish a Super Bowl team , but if he is I will praise him and admit I was wrong. I want this team to win more than I want to be right about him and the Ireland backers should also not be afraid to admit they were wrong after this season if they indeed are.
Nice to have 20/20 hindsight, huh? What if the "franchise QB" was Tim Couch instead of Matt Ryan? Or Ryan Leaf. Or Joey Harrington? Or Akili Smith? Or David Carr? Or Jamarcus Russell. Etc. Was Cleveland's selection of Joe Thomas over Brady Quinn in 2007 a questionable pick? Was Houston's seection of Mario Williams over Vince Young and Matt Leinart a questionable pick?
I think my context is just fine, but thanks for attacking my intelligence again. Anyway, you asked for reasoned criticism so here you go: The big problem with using this metric in defense of Jeff Ireland: That's the explanation of the metric from the website. You see, football is a team sport. Not only do you have to find talented players, but you have to assemble those players in a cohesive fashion in a manner than can produce results and wins on the football field. The metric does nothing to defend Ireland's inability, failure and just downright stubbornness to address several positions crucial to winning in today's game. These areas of weakness have been thoughtfully and carefully documented on this board several times. You choose to ignore or disagree with those arguments, whatever the case may be. So when you demand others supply a counterpoint to faulty logic, it's not really appropriate.
Ok now you lost me , Wake is paid a LOT more , that was his first contract and he was rewarded , correctly for it. He didn't produce initially like he has. To say he is the first CFL player to make an impact is also wrong , do you not remember another number 13?
Well d22, I think everyone will know if he did a good job the last 2 yrs by the end of the year. If we see "his" guys make plays, and score Td's and the OL play the whole season together etc, and THill showing that he was worth the pick, coupled with some of his longshot guys coming through, then I'll give him a pass. However, if this season is a death march, we will know that as well, his draftees once again not playing, IR is huge, we'll know.
the route we took gives us a chance to have an elite LT while also drafting an elite QB. hopefully we have done that. the falcons will not have a chance in the near future to draft a jake long while still having an elite qb in his prime. theres no doubt that i wish we had drafted matt ryan after suffering like we have through these tough years but i will take long and tannehill over matt ryan and whoever their LT is. hopefully tannehill is our franchise qb and my train of thought will prove the be the better option. only time will tell.
Here's the thing- Even with mutual disagreement, there should some sort of fact-based discussion. There should be some bare-minimum standard of discourse. Basically one side is holding up to that.
That is Ireland think Dpate, it has been quite discredited..unless Fist pumps&field goals sounds successful to you.
Yes, but it's still a valuable baseline to go from. Otherwise they wouldn't have even bothered. And that's ignoring any of the other avenues you can go down to come to the same consensus- Or theoretically, come to OTHER opinions through some sort of effort-based argument. I've compared 1 to 1 Dolphins drafts picks vs. perceived good or elite draft teams, and it's not actually all that offensive by comparison.
I wonder what the Career Approximate Value of that 2000 Washington Redskins roster was. Must have been through the roof. Just another example of why this metric really isn't that useful to judge a GM's effectiveness.
But this has been addressed. I'd agree that guys like Odrick, Misi, Pouncey, Long, are good players. I agree that Ireland is as good or better than the average GM at collecting average-above average players. But Ireland has shown an inability to draft that special player. And he has shied away from it. IMO, the difference between the elite teams in the NFL and the below average teams in the NFL from player 6-53 is not much. Probably very similar. BUt those elite teams have those top 1-5 guys that are playmaking game-changers. This is where Ireland has failed in the draft. You can downplay Earl Thomas's abilities all you want. BUt that was the epitome of Ireland playing it safe. There was a ballhwaking safety there for the taking in a position of dire need, and we elected to trade down. The Pouncey pick is another example. Good player, for sure. But Centers and Guards are found in later rounds, IMO. Look at Samuda. Guy looks like he's gonna be a real good player and he's an UDFA. Incognito was a cheap FA. That pick should've went towards a playmaker at one of our many positions where we lack playmakers. And there would've been a playmaker of value at #15, especially when we need and still do a S, pass rushing OLB/DE, or WR. We have 1 elite playmaker and he was came via Free Agency as we were the highest bidders. Kudos to Ireland for Cam Wake and recognizing that we needed to outbid everyone else. His inability to draft a playmaker caused the failure of a trade to get an already established playmaker in Brandon Marshall, too.
I'm shocked Ireland's ability to this point is even a debate...then again I guess a lot of you thought we should've kept Sparano too. Ehh, carry on.
