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The Objective Case for Jeff Ireland

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fineas, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You are sort of making my point. If you just use Win/Loss record, there are successful GMs out there who started out slow that you would have fired. You would have fired Millen along with Mickey Loomis, who is also regarded as a very good GM.

    If you take the time to analyze the roster, Free Agent acquisitions, compare his drafts to other GMs and look at the state of the teams cap, you will get a much clearer picture of the GM.
     
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  2. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Draft aside, Ireland is not a recruiter. He admits it himself. He doesn't like it for whatever reason...it could be because of price, injuries, or maybe he himself just hates the aspect of sucking up to them. I believe you need a decent amount of free agents to help the roster especially when the roster is not well established and still in the process of being built. For example, what if he signed Eric Winston for RT and drafted Alshon Jeffery at WR? Signing Winston, who tried out during the offseason, would have filled that hole and didn't need to be filled through the draft. Winston signed with the Chiefs because he said he felt they wanted him as they chased him hard. Ireland doesn't give me the impression that he likes to chase but rather likes to be chased. Drafting Jeffery would have filled the WR spot.

    I also think he churns the roster too much with rookies. There are obvious positives to this like keeping the roster younger and developing young talent but it also takes away confidence from veterans. If I was Reggie Bush, Dansby, or Long etc, I would be constantly second guessing if Ireland is serious about winning or just building young talent and churning youth. It has to come to a point where you have to let the experienced players stay on the team or recruit them and have a consistent roster to reach the playoffs consistently. There're 11 rookies on the team as of right now so I ask why hasn't the roster matured already over the last 4 years?
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    This post smacks of bitterness and not an ounce fact or proof that you even have paid attention to the counter argument. Kudos.
     
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  4. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    If I lost you, then let me try to find you again. Wake is paid a lot more now. Back then every GM could have signed Cam Wake to a sweetheart deal (that would still be in effect now if we hadn't extended him). They didn't. Except Jeff Ireland/Parcells. If every GM knew then what they know now, he'd have been paid a lot more. But they didn't know it then. Which is why Ireland/Parcells deserve a lot of credit for getting him.

    Sorry that I forgot about Jake Scott's single season in the CFL 43 years ago. Maybe because, from what I understand, Scott played offense, not defense, in the CFL. http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed.../jake-scott-was-cfl-star-just-not-on-defense/
     
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  5. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    31-33. Just like Ireland. Hell, in the 4th season, Packers went 6-10. Even with Aaron Rodgers and his 94 QB rating.
     
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  6. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO it's a combination of no stability at QB and coaching and some poor coaching during the Henning years.
     
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  7. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's a legitimate argument, and I agree with you. Ireland is probably guilty of playing it somewhat safe. That doesn't make him terrible, or unfit.

    I think Earl Thomas is overrated, yes, but it was still a potential valid avenue instead of Odrick and Misi, and I don't entirely disagree that we might not be better off. But you're comparing a best-case scenario against what is still a good outcome by any reasonable measure. Even if you think picking Odrick/Misi over Thomas wasn't the right decision, there's any number of worse decisions possible in that case that were functionally made. You need to take all of it into consideration.

    I don't think Mike Pouncey at all is a valid argument. Mike Pouncey looks very much like he was the best player available at that pick right now.
     
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  8. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's amazing how people seem to think they are entitled to their opinion being taken seriously.
     
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  9. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    The metric was NEVER intended to gauge the effectiveness of NFL GMs. It was used to assign an overall rating to an individual player for comparison purposes. Check this out:

    When you realize the approximations being used, and how close most of these draft picks are going to be after only a few seasons in the NFL, you can further see how this metric is almost useless at judging an NFL GMs overall effectiveness.

    How many times do I need to say it? Ireland has ignored or failed to provide talent in areas that are proven to be almost crucial to success at the NFL level. QB in past seasons, TE, WR, Safety in this season and others. Even if he drafted superstars at other positions, failing to find the talent in key areas can render a team to be an overall failure. Since football is a team sport with a lot of moving parts that need to work together cohesively, the approach of comparing 1 to 1 draft picks, and the approach used here does not even come close to telling the story of how good an NFL GM is. So using a similar approach to try and disprove it would be a futile exercise. I won't argue faulty logic with more faulty logic.
     
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  10. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Iam BITTER, bitter we have a garbage GM.

    And I have paid attention to "your" counter argument, it just does nothing to trump the obvious bar that is....RESULTS.

    Its like people are telling me how fast a car is and how it has this feature and that feature, but if I drive it and it won't go past 50 I'm going to assume their full of ......ya know.
     
  11. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Oh, but not a lack of talent? How convenient.
     
  12. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    My problem with Ireland is I just don't think he is anything more than average. His moves, IMO, just scream that he is afraid to go for the home run. He consistently goes for what appears the safe move, which does have it's place. But every now and then you need to go for that guy with a higher ceiling. Until then we will continue to have a roster of average players and little to no playmakers. Wake me up when Ireland decides to go for a playmaker in a draft, or strays away from the safest of safe picks. He's just as vanilla as it gets.
     
  13. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    Time will tell.

    It's a philosophy thing that guys like Jerry Reese seem to live by and I much agree with. Top rounds are for playmakers. QB, in a lot of cases, can make or break an entire OL in today's game. Those guys can be found later. Or in the Giants case, you can take a G in the 5th round, convert him to LT mid-season and still win a Super Bowl.
     
  14. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I think the recruiting thing is way overblown. Players go where they get paid the most, or want to live, or think they will fit the best. Winston went to KC because they offered him the most money. IIRC, we didn't even offer him a contract, or maybe it was a lowball one. Of course, when asked why they signed where they did, nobody ways "because they gave me the most Benjamins."

    We'll see what Jeffery does. His preseason numbers were about comparable to Rishard Matthews'. It doesn't look like he'll be starting either.
     
  15. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Would you say a team that has a top ten defense lacks talent?
     
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  16. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Wins and losses are part of that but those who are Ireland fans dismiss that as they do touchdowns , turnovers , interceptions and other criteria. We have a coach now who is very fond of saying he isn't a stat guy , that he likes to go by gut instinct , what he sees , by production. Maybe we have the wrong coach again?

    With the multitude of posts relating to this matter I truly may have missed but which of the Ireland proponents have identified the draft choices that have substantially outperformed their draft cost?

    A couple of years ago I said this team was severely lacking in speed , on both sides of the ball , a very very knowledgeable and great contributor dismissed and rebuffed that with a vengeance , by listing timed speeds. Less than one year later that same member was adamantly saying how poor the team speed was and how it needed to be addressed in order to compete and win . Knows more about football than me , loves stats and I truly appreciate the work and effort , but he was wrong , but he also wasn't going to keep contradicting that negative. Kudos to him.
     
  17. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    The season hasn't started yet so how is that possible? And I'll gladly bet you a year in club level this team does not finish in the top 10 in points allowed.
     
  18. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Jerry Reese certainly doesn't live by that philosophy. From 2008-2011 (the period we are looking at for Ireland), Reese had 9 picks in the 1st 2 rounds. Only 1 of those picks was used on a playmaker or skill position player.
     
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  19. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm talking about last season. We finished 6th in points allowed. What's the explanation for that?
     
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  20. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Yeah but you gotta go to the well. The position is too important not to.

    Really the "safe" approach with Long in the 1st and Henne in the 2nd you have to attribute to someone else if you want to argue that Ireland should still have his job IMO. You live and die with quarterbacks in this league, and someone in a position of power with the Dolphins chose to take Long in the 1st instead of a quarterback who panned out. That's the stuff of losing one's job.
     
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  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    May chuckle a bit, but Ireland's draftees?

    4 yrs/64 games in, 10 Tds (Henne and Bline may have 1 more on runs so it could be 12)

    CClay is literally an Ireland draftee Td scoring machine with 3.

    You just are not going to win many games or be in a good cap position like that, which is my complaint
     
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  22. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I watched him play DB , but he isn't the only one but sure you win with your Wake inclusion but by that you are saying it wasn't a high priority for him , he used a lower value asset on an impact player. Tell me two or more drafted players who dramatically out produced their asset cost? Just tell me this , when do we make the playoffs? when are we a final four team , and when does Ireland hoist the Lombardi trophy as the GM of the Miami Dolphin?

    I'll be ecstatic to say I am wrong when he accomplishes his goal and admit you were indeed correct.
     
  23. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    When I say playmaker, I include:

    CB
    WR
    QB
    RB
    Pass Rusher DE/OLB

    And yes, he does live by that philosophy. They don't take OLineman early. That's a fact and philosophy he clearly lives by considering that they finished 31st in Rushing this year, had many problems in pass protection and he still didn't draft an OL early in 2012.
     
  24. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's my point...if Ireland low balls or doesn't offer veteran free agent contracts he's not serious about experience helping the roster out.

    Jeffery would start for the Dolphins in a heart beat.
     
  25. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, I don't think anyone is looking at it and thinking that they've been able to put a watertight absolute value on NFL players that goes across positions. Like I said, it's a starting point.

    That's not really true. Most draft picks are not going to be close, even early on.

    Your average draft pick, regardless of round or position will likely fail. Early on you might have some confusions between failures or late bloomers, but it certainly isn't something that errs on the side of success.

    Again, that's your own draft philosophy. I'm not sure that your draft philosophy is a relevant part of this conversation.
     
  26. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    And he did go the well this year. They apparently didn't believe Ryan was a true franchise QB. I still don't think he is. You can win with him if everything around him is working, but he won't put a team on his back and carry them anywhere. That seems to be borne out to some degree by his playoff record so far. He has won exactly as many playoff games as the Dolphins since 2008. If he doesn't show up in the playoffs and Ryan Tannehill does, then even with 20/20 hindsight picking Matt Ryan would have been a mistake.
     
  27. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Hold on now, so when a unit plays poorly it's the coaching...when they play well it's the talent(GM).

    Point is we as fans want a consistent team in wich we have realistic expectations in a parity driven league. Ireland has failed and needs to gtfo.
     
  28. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, we had a very good coordinator in Nolan. But we also have some damn good talent on defense.

    Make sense?
     
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  29. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've gone on the record as being someone who doesn't like Jeff Ireland, and I even went so far as to list several guys I'd like to see should Ireland be replaced this offseason or in the future. I think I've also acknowledge certain moves of Jeff Ireland's I've liked and have thought have shown a good amount of foresight - the drafting of Lamar Miller being one of them.

    I should have some free time this week, and I think I'd like to put together some commentary on what the "Anti-Ireland" crowd, for lack of a better term, feel are legitimate concerns with Ireland's GM abilities. Hopefully I'll have something together prior to the Texans game. I'll start a separate thread for it. If not before the Texans game, certainly by the end of next weekend then. Disgustipate's correct in that no one has put together a complete, factual case against Jeff Ireland. While I'd consider myself 60/40 in replacing Ireland, I'm certainly not all torches and pitchfork's against him at this point. As I said, there's certainly some good to him.

    As an aside, I do think some members are pretty quick to fly off the handle when it comes to Jeff Ireland and personnel decisions in general. I think you have to recognize the quality of Fineas' orignial post and a lot of the commentary in this thread. I'll do my best to uphold that quality even though I'll be writing from a different perspective on Jeff Ireland - not essentially, "Oh, I hate Jeff Ireland; Miami sucks, fire him." There are good moves he's made in there, and it's important to acknowledge that. And I think many members on this board, and in this thread, forget that. And it's more than a from time-to-time thing. My aim is to represent, factually, my concerns I would have with him moving forward.
     
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  30. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    By that definition, then you have to include Vontae, SSmith, Brandon Marshall, Henne, White, Tannehill, DThomas, Odrick and Misi as playmakers that Ireland has used first or second round picks on over the last 5 years. I think that is more than Reese has.

    Reese took William Beatty in the 2nd in 2009. This year, maybe he just had players he liked better in the early stages of the draft. BPA may very well be a philosophy he believes in, but not taking OL in the early rounds clearly is not (Beatty). The Giants also took Chris Snee in the 2nd round in 2004 when he was Dir. of Player Personnel).
     
  31. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Matt Ryan's QB ratings in 2011 and 2010 were 92 and 91, respectively.

    In Dan Marino's 16 seasons in the league (minus his injury year), his QB rating was at least that high in only 3 of them.

    Matt Ryan's has been that high twice in only four years, half of his career.

    The mistake here IMO was not getting a franchise QB when one could be gotten, which has left us trying to do that this year, while Atlanta is taking the pieces they've assembled around Ryan and pushing toward the Super Bowl.

    In the interim we've endured several seasons of mediocrity or worse, because we failed to address the QB position when we could.
     
  32. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    i don't know if u havent read my reply to u, havent had time to reply, or just don't plan on responding. so i will paraphrase what i said and ask again. i basically said that the falcons will not have a chance to draft a LT like jake long while matt ryan is still on the time or in his prime. i said theres many times where i wish we had drafted matt ryan after going through these tough years as a dolphins fan. but if we hit the nail on the head with tannehill and he is our franchise qb, in retrospect we made the right choice because we will have an elite LT and an elite qb. only time will tell. but at this point i would rather have jake long and ryan tannehill as opposed to matt ryan and whoever their LT is.
     
  33. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Here is the good part of Ireland's performance:

    His small ball skills are some of the best in the business, hands down, he may have little business running some rds of the draft, but when it comes to finding guys under rocks who can bail him out..he finds them.

    Think about this w/o MMoore, were we have been last season?

    Or Cam Wake?

    Reggie Bush?

    Tony Fasano?

    D Bess?

    This yr he has found Marcus Thigpen and Anthony Armstrong, those moves tend to make up for his draft intransigence.

    The one guy I REALLY thought we could use was Phillip Hunt, he was what Wake was in 2010 heading into the season, if you ever watched Hunt play, you know what he can do, but Hunt did not wish to play in the 3-4.

    The football geek in me admires Ireland, the Dolphins fan in me is a bit worried that heretofore he just did not value guys who scored Td's.
     
  34. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Well if we have DAMN GOOD talent then I assume we won't regress right??
     
  35. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I couldn't disagree more with that statement.

    Again, look at what Matt Ryan has done in the league. Ryan Tannehill has done nothing yet.

    I'll take Matt Ryan and any left tackle in the league over Ryan Tannehill and Jake Long at this point. Give me my proven franchise QB and I'll find me a left tackle some way, somehow.
     
  36. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That would be a good assumption, yes.
     
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  37. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Looking forward to it!
     
  38. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Agree to disagree on the validity of the metric used by the OP. As to the last sentence of your post -

    My draft philosophy? I can't take credit for that. Do you really think any NFL GM worth his salt would disagree that football is a team sport and that a successful team requires players to play together cohesively? And that there are several positions that are more important to the success of NFL teams than others? Even Jeff Ireland would agree.

    You just dismissed the reasoned criticism you asked for with a sentence that basically says building a cohesive team is some philosophy that I conjured up and not common sense for any NFL GM.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That's just it, you weren't driving it. Captain 3pts was driving it. How does that not resonate at all?
     
  40. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Passer ratings are up, by a lot, across the league since Marino played. Those 91-92 ratings don't mean what they used to. Ryan simply hasn't shown much ability to put the team on his back and carry it. Marino did that his entire career. To illustrate the point, I'll define a "carry on the back game" as one in which the QB throws for more than 300 yards and 3 TDs. In 4 years, Ryan has done that twice (in an era when 300 yards is not that high a threshold and with a plethora of offensive weapons). In his first 4 seasons, Marino did it 15 times. If you can't do that with some regularity, then you are what people refer to as just a "game manager." Ryan has shown that he can be an efficient game manager, but nothing more. I don't spend the No. 1 overall pick on that.
     
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