I believe Acorsi was GM in 2004 with Chris Snee. Beatty was the 2nd 2nd round pick, so yeah I'll give you that one. But it's clearly a philosophy of his to avoid taking OL high. Re: Ireland. Marshall was a trade P. White, according to every person who has ever defended Ireland and numerous sources, was a Parcell's maneuver. I don't think even the staunchest Ireland "hater" will argue this anymore. Odrick was a 4-3 DT out of college. Which is why it's mind boggling to me that he is our 2012 answer to the 4-3 DE. A major reason why we have horrible pass rush outside of Wake. Misi, IMO, does not qualify as a pass rushing OLB. He's a 4-3 LB. But yes, he was drafted with the intent to rush the passer And even so, my argument was never that Ireland avoids those positions. I was just making a point that using the resources(1st and 2nd rounders) he does on the OL in the draft is not something I agree with.
i know u are only commenting on the bold print, but i did put an "if" in there about tannehill. if tannehill becomes an elite qb and/or our franchise qb, how can u say u would rather have matt ryan and any LT? i understand your point if we are talking about right now because tannehill is an unknown and matt ryan is not. but there is no way i would take any LT and a franchise qb as opposed to jake long and a franchise qb. like i said, time will tell but if we have our franchise qb we are in a better position than the falcons and will probably go a lot farther in the playoffs whenever we get to that point.
Better talent is the cure for that tho FinD. Coach looks a lot smarter when guys make things happen this was one of the problems with "smart tough disciplined" How about, fast explosive with ball in their hands?
And if they don't and it's week 10 and Miami is 2-7 will you admidt Ireland hass assembled a bad team?
Then why do you suppose the Falcons are putting pieces around Ryan, including trading WAY up in the 1st to do so (Julio Jones), instead of looking for another QB, while we're drafting a QB in the 1st as recently as this year? You're telling me that doesn't reflect a mistake on our part?
Hey if Tannehill becomes a franchise QB then the "reset" button has been pushed, and I'm with you 100%. One of the things I'm excited about this year is that the slate is clean and we can move forward in that direction.
Depends on what your definition of a clean slate is. Keeping a huge part of a failed regime, GM Jeff Ireland, doesn't seem like a clean slate to me. And if the Dolphins fail this year we're right back to haggling over where the blame lies. Will it be with Philbin as a coach? Or the talent supplied by Ireland? Both?
You are saying the Dolphins must have made a mistake because the Falcons are trying to add talent? That make literally zero sense. The Falcons are doing what they are doing because that is one way to win. Get a game manager QB, try to surround him with guys to make the plays he can't on his own, and try to build a good defense. Nothing wrong with the approach -- the Bucs did it with Brad Johnson when they traded a few 1sts for Keyshawn and tried to surround Johnson with other weapons like Dunn, Alstott, etc. It worked for the Bucs, but it certainly didn't mean that Brad Johnson was a franchise QB. It hasn't worked for the Falcons (at least not yet) because they haven't won a playoff game and Ryan hasn't played well in a playoff game. When his team has needed him to step up with their backs against the wall and their season on the brink, Ryan has been unable to hit the 200 yard mark. Their offensive showing in the playoffs last year was pathetic despite all those weapons Ryan had at his disposal.
Things could fail, but I'm encouraged by the fact that there are strong signs that Ireland is working very cooperatively with a head coach who looks to me to be about 50 IQ points above Sparano.
If the coach blew and you can't 100% say which moves Ireland made without Parcells influence or you can't say he didn't have to follow Parcells blueprint....then how can you possibly have made an informed opinion of Ireland?
I remember this quite fondly- intellectual analysis employing algorithms for something easily discernible by sight, much like pages upon pages of statistics depicting Culpepper as a consummate quarterback when eyesight was the only tool essential to the deliberation. The quality of this thread is above and beyond. Insight like this does not exist on other forums and words cannot describe what a pleasure it is to read. But thats all it is, a nice read. In the end, all one has to do is look, not calculate. What do you see?
Not what I said at all. But you're a lawyer, so I'll leave you with your straw man. I don't think Ryan has enough of a sample size in the playoffs to make any conclusions about him in that regard. Either way, Atlanta isn't out looking for another QB. They're out trading draft picks to put pieces around the one they have.
if the "fist pumps" button was available to me i would use it. lol. i believe your stand point is very rational and we would be better off if we had chosen matt ryan up til now. but we have the chance to be much better off if tannehill is what we all hope he is. having no weapons for tannehill will not reflect that this year, but once we get him those weapons and if he is our franchise qb we will be much better off.
Yeah facts are stupid, biased opinions are way more accurate. We should make juries follow their gut. What could go wrong?
Doesn't mean they are right. Give them 2 more years. If they continue to lose playoff games and Ryan continues to play poorly in them, expect them to start looking for a new QB. Gonzalez will probably be gone by then, but the other offensive playmakers will be just as useful to whoever the new QB is. Every QB will be better with talent around them -- it is not like they are investing in players who can only play with Matt Ryan.
Right, but Thomas Dimitroff will be the one doing that work, in large part because of the record Matt Ryan has helped his team achieve, while at the same time we could quite possibly be hiring a new GM after the QB fails who Jeff Ireland drafted four years of poor play after he could've gotten Matt Ryan. Thomas Dimitroff earned himself a secure place in the NFL with the drafting of Matt Ryan, while Jeff Ireland, if you attribute the miss on Ryan to him, is hanging on by a thread. They say hindsight is 20/20, but I have to think that looking back at passing on Matt Ryan as anything but a mistake is like having the benefit of hindsight and still seeing 20/40.
No its consistent with how i see your stance. You said numbers mean nothing, its all about how you feel.
I'm in show me mode VF, if we do the Dolphins thing and cobble together a team then I go negative. If we play young guys and they show they have the skill if not the experience then I'll buy back in to Ireland We don't need Gaffney, we need to see young guys play well.
Hmmm when I viewed this from the forum view it said The Objective Case for Jeff......and here I was thinking we had a Jeff Fuller thread. Unfortunately its another Ireland thread. Yawn. Defend him all you want, we keep racking up mediocre and below average years. If thats what you want, you got it.
If Tannehill becomes a franchise QB—which, really, is not that difficult to find these days, as the majority of NFL teams have one now—then the reset button isn't pushed, but rather Ireland receives a stay of execution. Now, if Tannehill becomes an elite QB, then Ireland gets the reset button.
Yeah I didn't mean the reset button on Ireland, but rather the reset button on this team's inability to win. They will have found the necessary ingredient for winning at that point, and then it'll be a matter of putting the pieces in place around it. An upward trajectory rather than a flat or a downward one, if you will.
But Ireland is not hanging by a thread -- he seems to have the confidence of the owner, and that is really the only thing that matters. And why assume that Ireland's QB, Tannehill, will fail? It could well be that the Falcons have two 10-6 or 9-7 seasons and either miss the playoffs or lose in the first round as they have been doing and Tannehill is great and leads the Dolphins to playoff wins. Making the playoffs is nice, as are 10-6 seasons, but fans and owners will no longer be impressed if it doesn't also bring playoff success. Just ask Dave Wannstedt or Wade Phillips or Jim Mora or Marty Schottenheimer. If I knew, going into a game, that I'd need my team to score 30+ points to win, Matt Ryan would be no better than the 18th QB I'd want on my team. I'd take any of the following guys over Ryan: Rodgers Brady Brees PManning EManning Stafford Newton Rivers Romo Schaub Roethlisberger Vick Palmer Freeman Cutler Bradford Fitzpatrick Matt Ryan is better than the last 4-5 of these guys, but IMO less capable of carrying a team when needed. By the end of the year, I'd expect to add Luck, Griffin, Tannehill, Weeden, RWilson and Ponder to that list. That would put Ryan at 25 of 32 starting QBs.
See- as in your overt bias on the matter. Intellectuals, such as yourself, love these debates. You challenge yourself to draw out all points on the matter except that which is most obvious. It must be the challenge of taking the underdog stance and defending it so brilliantly that is the jug. If the discussion should turn to the color green it would be argued that green isn't a color. Fundamentally, light is a continuous spectrum of the wavelengths that can be detected by the human eye and the human eye normally contains only three types of color receptors so it is the combination of any two primary colors that can create a secondary color. Therefore, one does not see green but an exact combination of blue and yellow. You mention numbers but the ones that point to Ireland being an absolute failure do not apply. I can only feel the Miami Dolphins have very little talent on the roster. I cannot see it on the gridiron. How dare I believe my lying eyes? The standings are metaphysical. In any case, the intellectual will never concede because he is a magician that can make something from nothing. But misdirection... astounding stories... official-sounding terms- all this magic will not obscure the fact that the Miami Dolphins are one of the worst teams in the NFL with one of the more talentless rosters. The talent level has not gotten considerably better in 4 years and Jeff Ireland is their General Manager.
IMO Ryan has yet to show he's a franchise QB. I think that if we had drafted Ryan then his performance here would not have been much different than what we had from Henne. And that if we had taken Ryan and Henne had landed in Atlanta that people would be talking about how much of a mistake it was to take Ryan and how much smarter Atlanta was to have taken Long and Henne. Ryan has simply been in a much better situation.
QB ratings were not overall as high during Marino's career as they are this past decade or so. If you compare where he ranked each year for QB rating, as opposed to where Ryan ranks every year now, it would be a more accurate comparison, if that is what you want.
I disagree with the bolded. Most seem to forget just how awful the Falcons were in 2007. They went through three QBs and two head coaches. All the Falcons had over us was a then-blossoming Roddy White. Yet they've turned around quicker than we have, in a much deeper conference no less.
I'm not an intellectual. Record is not a specific indicator...it could mean the players or the c oach or the GM or bad luck or oddly superior opposition, etc. Talent is subjective. You are basically saying we aren't talented because we aren't winning. that's circular logic and is indicative of nothing. Facts are important. Facts are we don't know how much of the roster from before last year is Ireland's fault or not. Facts are Sparano isn't a great coach. Facts are the team went 11-5 with solid QB play. Here are Parcells rules for drafting a QB: Link Now Ireland was the gm who "pulled the trigger" on Henne & Tannehill. They are completely different QBs. Coming out of school which of these two meets all the rules? So we have some evidence Henne wasn't Ireland's fault. And we have evidence a similarly talented team to this one can go 11-5 with solid QB play. What does that say about your gut reaction theory? I'd also like to point out I don't have a bias on ireland.
Yes. Great work by Fineas but Im not going to sit here and defend Ireland based on a stat when the record says otherwise. Year one Parcells by Irelands own admission ran a lot of things. Even we excuse Ireland for the first 3 years which Im willing to do, we were still 6-10 last year and this year is not looking better, its looking worse. So I apologize to you and other forum members if I am more then a bit apathetic to the situation. And the worst part is I wanted Philbin when people were riding Jeff fishers jock in to the ground.
