we had an elite offensive line, for whatever reason, it was unceremoniously dismantled. in one foul swoop the interior went missing. good idea or bad idea? it is what it is....gone. elite formula for the offensive line: 1) pro-bowl calibre left tackle 2) pro-bowl calibre center 3) two guards & a right tackle that are very talented, big & physical 4) excellent coaching 5) chemistry & timing __________________________________________________+ elite offensive line do you agree with this model/template? if yes, how do we stack up? if no, elaborate? how close are we to an elite offensive line as we enter game seven of 2010?
they were elite at run blocking. They were horrible at pass blocking. Now the line is really good at pass blocking and decent at run blocking
One thing missing from your model is "time". Any OL needs time to gel. I think moving from Grove to Berger really hurt this OL. It seems that Grove is injured so I wouldn't call it a decision as it seems they had no choice. I do expect that the OL will continue to improve as the season progresses. IMO the pass pro has been very good of late. I'm less confident about the run blocking. I worry that the interior three may not be athletic enough to block anyone on the second level. Most great OLs seem to have at least one interior lineman who can get down field and throw a block.
That Pro Bowl caliber Center is presently out of a job. One of those talented guards is a backup whilst the other one is presently out of a job.
No, we had a Very Good, injury prone line. The interior was always banged up and missing games. I'm not trying to take a shot at you man, but I just don't understand this revisionist history. Do you remember that game last year (Can't remember against who) where we had Smiley go down, then Grove, then Berger, and Smiley had to come back in, still marginally injured because we would have had to start going to the defense to put in linemen? That line was not elite. That line was a train wreck waiting to happen. If they could stay healthy, yeah, I'd ask why we tooled with it, but they couldn't. With Sparano being an OLine guy, I imagine that game I mentioned above was the point where he realized they needed to fix a lot of these injury issues and find a line that can work as a cohesive unit, and gel for years to come. Expect a lot less movement this year. Maybe an upgrade at center, maybe a new LG, but even that would be really surprising.
the other piece to the puzzle is depth. all players are prone to injury, you need a good bench to fill in when someone goes down, elite or not, there will always be injuries
We have played ( see my former thread ) 4 of the top run defenses in the NFL. Evidently this guy is a relative of one of the Olineman that is sitting home waiting for the phone to ring or a is related to Smiley who is stinking up the joint in Jacksonville. Again. Pittsburgh, Jets, NE and Minn are number 1, 4, 5 ,6 th ranked run defenses in the NFL. Guess that means squat LMAO. This is really comical.
1) there will always be injuries on an offensive line... no revisionist history here, we all watched the same games 2) my thought is that the team may have been better served over the course of this season, had we maintained @ least Grove & Smiley. Could have worked in the bench gradually or as needed allowing them to acquire the experience, chemistry & timing required of an offensive unit. to replace one starter is not as much of a risk or set-back for the team, as replacing an entire interior line. 3) the offensive line was an elite unit. they played both the run & pass equally well, with the lone exception of Thomas, who needed more experience in pass protection but held his own. I could see him losing the position from the get-go, but not all three. 4) don't know if it was arrogance or stupidity but Sparano should have known better, it was an imprudent move on his part.
The offensive line was never an elite unit, it was a good run blocking unit and poor pass protection last year, now its the opposite.
Good pass protection, mediocre run blocking RW did hang 50 on the Steelers. Which to me is all the more reason to evaluate the 6 Running Backs and use the best blockers from henceforth. There are 2 pure Fullback's on the roster in Anderson and Polite, and one Fb/Tailback in Hilliard, they should find ways to get all three into games to block.
everybody has an opinion, that's why I started the thread, to promote civil discourse. however the importance of the offensive line is the one thing that cannot be denied. it all begins in the trenches. dominate both sides the trench & you usually win the game. if the offensive line gets the push up front, running lanes consistently open. if you have a running game established, it facilitates the passing game, etc. etc.
sarcasm so often sours the milk of human kindness Friend BlameItOnTheHenne: penny would have to work with the same offense line as henne just my opinion, nothing more that Pennington would do a better job the offense we run is more suited to him & he is a better QB i.e. more accurate passer, better decision-maker there are no guarantees, but I would give the guy a shot @ the start nothing ventured, nothing gained. all I want is to win
I think the OL was definitely overall a better line through the first half of last year than this one has shown this season. The problem is that this team is molded to thrive via the power running game and now they have an o-line without power. Yeah, that makes sense. The injuries to Garner have hurt as well as Jerry being out. But, I think Jerry needs to be inserted into the starting line up. And, the coach needs to get Carey to stop playing in concrete shoes.
Friend Da 'Fins: interesting observation fits my thought exactly 2) pro-bowl calibre center 3) two guards & a right tackle that are very talented, big & physical (w/o concrete feet)
Agreed. I was pretty upset at hearing that, but glad to see (knock on wood) that we haven't been hit with the injury bug on the line. With the exception of Jerry who really isn't an injury...
The Problem isn't really Drive blocking Incognito is better at that than Smiley was but we don't have anyone that can hit guys on the second level to spring the big gains..That was one thing that Smiley had over all these interior guys. So what we have going on right now is the Defensive lineman are being handled but no one is slipping off and hitting the Linebackers...and to be honest Polite has been off this year he was MONEY last year.
Which is why those 4 blocking backs simply must be used more efficiently, if the Oline cannot hit that second level, then there are players who could...
like your logo friend Zeke0123 . we need John Jerry to return & step up his game a notch, then find a pro-bowl quality center to help get the blocking schemes right
Polite is playing like garbage. He was batting close to 1.000 last year on taking out LBs, this year he's around .400, one of the unspoken reasons why the run game is suffering. Also, Henning is in love with pulling Incognito but that's not his game. He's much better as a straight ahead blocker. IMO we should be running ISO or power to the left more often, and we should incorporate more stretch/zone runs and traps into the rushing attack. I am in constant awe with how the Jests are able to run the Iso, power, counter, trap and zone plays effectively. That level of versatility keeps the front 7 off balance and it has L.T. looking like a 26 yr old. Our run game is the same three plays over and friggin over.
This is why we need a guard of the abilities of Logan Mankins(who we showed interest but the price/draft pick New England wanted must have been to high for Ireland. Next season could be different not having to give up a draft pick and "just pay his salary" which will be considerable. The thought of Mankins joining Long on our offensive line has to give you a "woody"
While I totally agree 100% that the line of Long, Smiley, Grove, Thomas, Carey is better than the line now, the problem was we could only count on that line to play 6 games(if lucky) a season together. They definitely need to find improvements inside next year (Moffit, Pouncey, Wisniewski, O'Dowd, Cannon).
The plays you mentioned would play right into this lines strengths but with the experience Henning has, it amazes me he is not running those type of plays. It seems that he is running ? no one knows. He knows he has good pass protection but we have gone deep what? twice in 6 games ? Deep I mean a play over 20 yards, 30 yards, hell, go 40 yards downfield. Not sure the reason why. Either he has no trust in Hennes arm or no trust in our receivers, has to be one of the two. We have a good Offensive line, now we need someone in touch with reality up in the booth to run plays that will work. Tell ya what, we do not go deep against Cinn. , since their secondary looks like a Mash Unit this week, then its one of the two, no faith in Henne or no faith in our receivers. Its the only logical answer I can think of. If Henne was not getting the protection and time to throw, it would be different but Henne can knit a sweater back there.
The line has regressed, but it would have regressed had we kept and started Smiley and Grove. Those two players did very well initially when they got here, but then declined. Justin Smiley's right shoulder is shot. He's had multiple surgeries on it, and reportedly had difficulties lifting his arm above his head still this off-season. He's able to play, but he's a big liability during in-line blocking situations. He's riding the pine in Jacksonville now, despite being as healthy as he's going to get. Jake Grove's situation is murkier, but he played like **** this pre-season, so bad that he's still unemployed. He played very well last season, but so did Joe Berger. Berger isn't playing as well as he was last season, but he's not in any sense playing bad. Next offseason, they'll probably drop some resources on the line again, probably Left Guard.
It is possible that they just feel like Henne is the most valuable player to try to protect. Perhaps they play a tackle at RG, the better pass blocking C etc etc... Maybe the difference in yardage to the coaching staff is irrelevant compared to better passing totals.
Polite always seemed to get the pub for crushing blocks on outside runs, most of the time following Smiley on pulls either on the toss sweep or on the wildcat. We don't have any lineman that can pull anywhere as near as effectively as Smiley, and therefore I think Polite has suffered because guys like Incognito and McQuistan aren't as adept at pulling and Polite's been hung out to dry. As evidence, on that 3rd and 1 play, we tried to pull Jake Long on a counter - as good as Jake is, pulling your backside tackle isn't going to work against the Steelers; it's just too slow of a developing play to have a chance. I'd love to see every effort made to get Logan Mankins. Hell, Jeff Ireland already called the Pats this year.
Incognito is no Smiley & Berger no Grove I could see the legitimate competition @ RG however would have been prudent to hold the interior line together until the bench could or had to replace them dismantling the interior line was a grave error in coaching. Sparano is responsible.
Friend RoninFin4: got to get a push on the offensive line for the blocking back to squeeze through to get to the second tier to open a block for the running block. the offensive line has not been dominant @ the line of scrimmage, therein lies the problem. can't block someone you can't confront. Smileys ability to pull is sorely missed... Thomas was the problem & only weak link in pass protection. I would have gone with: Long- Smiley-Grove-Incognito-Carey (Garner@RG?) p.s. Ireland put in a call to the Patriots just before the trade deadline regarding a possible deal for LG Logan Mankins...
You can only go Smiley/Grove for so long till they both end up injured and on the bench. We cut dead weight and moved on. BTW I really don't appreciate being told I'd damage the thread and then in turn being lied to.
