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Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Ray Finkle, Nov 10, 2010.
I like Martinez alot for the job, but the Red Sox wont sign him for obvious reasons....
The press conference in Chicago starts at 11pm central time, which you'll be able to view live here. Before we update this post with press conference quotes, here are some highlights from an op-ed piece Epstein wrote for the Boston Globe.
So here we go...
Step 1: Claim its not you, its me! We can still be friends right? Check!
Step 2: Say, while the mess occurred, any quality maid service could clean it up...come on, anyone watch the Hangover? Check!
Step 3: Let the world know, you accomplished MORE with LESS, and your Replacement should have more titles before the first pitch! No pressure its on a silver platter. Check!
"The Great Boston Robbery"
Jon Lackey and his Agent
Dang, that means Bostons Rotation will be better in 2012...darn!
Exactly, best news since August. Plus Lackey out for the year means luxury tax relief for the rest of his contract too.
this isnt a surprise they were reporting he has elbow problems that were going to get worse...alos per his contract, it kicks in a club option in 2015...
In all seriousness I have to give the guy credit for pitching through the injury. A lot of people, especially in the media, are very quick to knock players for not playing hurt yet never give a player credit when he does. Maybe (and this is very big wishful thinking on my part) is that a lot of his bad performance has to do with the injury and maybe he'll come back and pitch reasonably well. Either way not having him in the 2012 rotation is a positive.
Big picture, this also changes the story about him from the ugly divorce and beergate to his rehab being what most fans will care about imo.
Him being out of the spotlight for a full year can't hurt but I doubt the fans or media will forget. At least until he comes back and pitches well. IF he pitches well all will be forgotten. If he pitches poorly he'll be boo'ed off the mound again. I'm sure Boston fans for the most part are mad he's hurt so the Sox can't trade him. He's probably the most hated Red Sox in the past 10 years, certainly since Carl Everett and/or Jose Offerman.
On one hand you have to say the guy was a bulldog, he pitched in pain all year, and had a .500 record, on the other hand you have to say why did he do that?
Bottom line don't listen to anything the teams say, they lie....Theo said there wasn't a problem with Lackey during the year, Lackey himself said he had an elbow problem that was going to get worse not better.....
Luccino (that jackrod) said Theo had full operations of all baseball things, and then yesterday Theo said something to the affect of if Tito had stayed he would have.....so he didnt have full control....
and then yesterday you see Luccino right on Benny's shoulder....good luck Ben with that guy...
Fink what does the ownership group see in that guy?
I'll take things one by one:
With Lackey, I absolutely respect him going out there and pitching hurt. The reason why he did it was because what were the Sox other options? Buchholz was done for the year, so the Sox were already down 1 starter. Both Beckett and Bedard missed time in September. The Sox were throwing out Miller, Wakefield, Weiland etc and watching them get their brains beat in. Lackey actually pitched a very good ball game against the Yankees that Sunday. So I don't blame him pitching hurt and wanting to help the team. I'm sure IF Buchholz was at full strength and the Sox were rolling in September they may have shut Lackey down for a bit to rest or maybe for the year. Who knows.
And I agree not to listen to what teams say, that they lie. And the teams should. They'd be at a disadvantage if they told the truth. I'd rather have my team not say a word about anything than to air everything out.
As for Theo, you didn't get the full story. Theo basically said that he told the ownership group back in August that he was going to leave after the 2012 season since he felt that after 10 years he needed a change, he cited a Bill Russell quote about it. But when September happened and Francona decided not to come back he thought it was the best time for him to leave because he didn't want to lead the interview process for a new manager if he was only going to be around for that 1 year. He said it would be awkward at best for him to do that. He felt Ben Charrington was more than ready to take over, he said if he didn't think the team or Ben was ready to move on he would have stayed. He said the ownership group offered him numerous positions with the club and also their business group Fenway Sports but he turned them all down as he felt he needed a new challenge.
As far as Luccino, I think he's a smart guy (he helped build new ball parks in Baltimore and San Diego and was key in building up Fenway) but he just rubs people the wrong way. I don't know much about him, what he does with the club or how much say he really has. So I can't really comment. He does seem to be more harm than good though. But again I have no idea.
Did Lackey hurt his arm with the repetitive movements of Beer Drinking and Chicken eating??? They should MRI Beckett and Lester just in case!
So unless you believe that Tito was flat out lying through his teeth, the only explanation is that the elbow got significantly worse over the final month and a half or the Sox had a little chat with Lackey and assured him that they would not invoke the surgery clause on his contract if he went ahead with the operation. This is working on the assumption that its possible his elbow was damaged enough to limit his performance but not so bad as to absolutely require surgery.
I've heard/read that there was already some damage in his ULC nerve when he was signed hence the clause in the contract for the 6th year at league minimum.
And yes I do think both Lackey and the Sox were aware of his injury but both agreed to let him pitch (pitchers sometimes can still pitch with that injury). The Sox shut down Lackey numerous times during the year because of the elbow. I'm sure they knew it was utlimately going to lead to TJ surgery, just a matter of when.
Right. What I'm saying though is that the Sox had a chat with Lackey and 'suggested' that he proceed with the operation - as TJ surgery cases are not black and white, many times the decision to go ahead with the surgery is a judgement call - and used the surgery clause (taking it off the table) in his contract as a financial incentive for him to do so.
That, or Tito was lying through his teeth in the aforementioned quotation, which seems much more unlikely on the surface.
Oh it's possible, Cherington mentioned that the clause doesn't automatically kick in because of the surgery. Getting the TJ surgery can't hurt though as there was obviously something wrong with Lackey as his command/control was off all year.
Sox might be in on Beltran as well according to Heyman....
Like everything else depends on the money and the years. Sox could certainly use his bat, especially from the right side. How good would he bad playing D in RF at Fenway and his health would be a worry.
right how is he rating out defensively? I cant pitcure him being that bad, he used be a centerfielder for pete's sake...maybe lost a step here or there, but thats about it...
He would be perfect for RF in the Stadium...
Not sure how he's rated out defensively, usually you need at least 2 years worth of data to determine how good/bad a fielder is.
EDIT: I just heard and read from Keith Law that Beltran has big question marks in RF.
From a Sox or Yanks perspective?
Any team's perspective.
We're going to miss Drew's defense next year. Guy managed the cavernous RF of Fenway beautifully.
Any team with a smart and rational GM that is........not worth the money!
His defense was rather solid in RF......I read something about his total earnings was something in the 90M dollar range....staggering....
Hown much do you think you are going to have to pay him..?
Honestly will be very surprised (similiar to my Martin feeling) if the Yankees will make the move to really want to sign him. Why sign 34yr old aging and often hurt Beltran to $10M plus for 1 yr (when I dont think he will agree to 1yr - and thats all his risk/return is worth); when I can have a 30yr old non-injury history $10M Swisher who will most likely produce equatable numbers and play better RF defense.
Its different if he would see himself as a Andru Jones type 4th/5th OF and take a rotational contract for his value to stay the most healthy...but no, he is beyond the realm of being in position to return value for the contract he most likely expects to receive.
Frankly, resign in SF. Or Beantown can have him for the 3-4yrs.....!
Oh absolutely. Anyone that calls Drew a bust doesn't pay attention to baseball. Yeah the guy was worthless in his last year of his contract (the majority of players that sign long term contracts that end in their mid 30s usually end poorly) but the guy played very good defense, got on base and had some very big hits in the playoffs with the Sox.
I think Drew gets a bad rap because his talent just never met his production as people thought he would've/could've been a lot better. Either way I'd glad the Sox signed Drew over Trot Nixon (remember that debate on FH, Patsy?).
He was healthy for the first time in a while true, and was a better hitter than Swisher at 34 still......My concern is can he stay healthy, I would do 1 year at decent money....but no more (forget 3-4 years even though I know you were joking) because again the simple fact is the guy is just a better all around professional hitter than Swisher.....
Swisher beats him in the smile department....Swish has a good smile....
I think Drew gets a bad rap because reading "The History of Salt" is more exciting than JD.....his personality was just eh...but one thing about him is he never got in trouble, so he is okay in my book...
Here are last year's numbers:
Batting average (Beltran .300, Swisher .260)
OBP (Beltran, .385-.374)
Slugging (Beltran, .525-.449)
OPS (Beltran, .910-.822).
Simply put, Beltran isnt worth the price difference to then claim he is a a better player offensively (or defensively) in any of those stats and the slight difference in each.
If the Yankees pick up Swisher's option he will have one more season left on his contract. He will give them decent production, like he always does. After that, the Yankees could choose to move in another direction. Beltran is 35, injury-prone, and would require a multi-year deal, and the Yankees have too many aging veteran on expensive multi-year deals already.
They simply do not need another one. Cashman is smarter than the average fan. He will prove it again....(I Hope )
Now, if you say, Beltran for 1yr 10M or less....then I am intrigued, but I would fear for an injury as everyday RF.
It love the fan/media double standard, when a guy (like Drew) doesn't say a word and is vanilla or boring he gets knocked saying he doesn't care enough yet when a guy (like a Papelbon or Schilling) speaks their mind and doesn't hold back he's told to shut up.
Bobby Valentine anyone... Beckett sounds thrilled.
also they inquired about Madison....
Beckett should grow up and be a man. He's lost all of his whining privileges along with the rest of the 2011 Red Sox (minus Pedroia) after last September.
I agree, some of the Valentine hate is most likely leveled at the fact they won't be able to get away with anything like the last couple of years under Tito.
Exactly. And you know what why not give the guy a chance? If they don't like someone who's tough on them well maybe they shouldn't have mistreated Francona.
I dont think Ellsbury packed it in either at the end...
Fink what do you think of Bard starting? is it even feasible, has he ever done it before?
Bard was a starter in college and at the start of his Sox career. He could probably do it, control has always been his major problem. I wouldn't mind giving him another shot at starting but he just seems to be able to keep it together longer in the pen.
Anyone think Cherington will give a shout out to the Marlins about Hanley.
Like what GM said, Bard was a starter in college and in his first year with the Sox but had awful results. They sent him to the Hawaiian winter league and let him pitch out of the pen with instructions to stop thinking and just throw hard and he turned into a dominate RPer. I have doubts he could turn into a good SP but he does have 4 pitches so who knows. A SP is obviously more valueble than a RP so might as well give it a try, if it turns out in ST or in the middle of the season it was a mistake its easy to just put him in the pen.
And yes Cherrington should absolutely call the Marlins about Hanley (every GM should). I still think he should call the Mets about David Wright as well and see if there's a match.
Bard could suffer from JOBA syndrome if suffled back to Rotation....as his Speed will decline and level out as Starter vs. his 99mph arm for inning or two out of pen.
Personally, I think he is PEN guy that can dominate (and be hit on occassion) like Joba, and like Joba will see significant drop off of speed and command and stamina cause of pitch count if starter.
D.Wright play would be interesting. But Youk full time DH? would he be happy or problem child with that role? That would signal the end for Ortiz for sure.
Both HanRam and Wright would be major improvement from D side of things and O side if Youk agrees to fulltime DH....heck of a squad then. Wow.