http://american_almanac.tripod.com/russcwar.htm Seems that there just might be more to the LIncoln - Marx connection than one might think.
Ah, Danny I wasn't even thinking in that mode. Please get off that kick as this is about the War between the States. I'll spell it out ok. Lincoln talks with Marx= back door deplom with Russia=keeps england and france out of war with southern states=england and france from bottling up Russian fleet in russian waters=no world war. See and not one word about Commies or right or left wings,ok. With all due respect are we straight now?
So then you're not trying to say Lincoln had idea's like that of Marx aka socialists (communism is sort of a different beast). Just trying to get it straight that you weren't calling Lincoln a socialist/communist. Also I think that article is putting way too much weight on the Russian connection, there are reasons things tend to get lost in history and most of the time it's because they were simply not that important. I think economics probably played the biggest role.
In my reading about those two men what I really think is that Marx had Lincoln all wrong and was just playing up to Lincoln. Lincoln being the light weight in international doings just went along for the ride. To me Lincoln to Socialism is like oil to water. He would be the very last person I would think of if you ask me to start naming socialist/communist or anyother giveaway live off Government type programs. I tend to agree and the more likly reason is that the Russians didn't want to lose their fleets to the English, first and formost, plus it "Looked Good" and caused the French to step back. As you know while the French wanted to reinter the America's badly they didn't dare do anything without the English moving first. In point of fact Jeff Davis' worse political blunder was to count on England the way he did betting that the need for King Cotton would bring them running. It never happened. The main reason I posted this is because most of us never knew this event even took place and I thought to maybe see if anyone might be interested. I only learned about it 3/4 years ago and when brought up again on another forum where I'm a Mod I thought I'd post it here and see what might happen.
That is interesting, I never knew Russia was that involved. I know the French, English, Prussia and the Mexicans all had observers with the Confederate army. I am not real sure why Prussia and Mexico did not lend it's support, but the Emancipation Proclamation was the biggest deciding factor for France and England, or so it says in all the books I have read. But that is pretty interesting about Russia.
Some world history facts you might be unaware of include the Polish fight for their freedom in 1831 from Russia. The reason I bring this up is that it plays a part in our own history because of their migration to this country in the 1850's. http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/982.html Americans of that day cheered on the poles in their fight for freedom but of course it was crushed by Russia. Never the less it gives you an idea that there was alot of feeling for the South by those in the North who felt it was best to just let them go and this was even more true when it was just the first seven States. Remember Virginia at first voted to stay in the Union as did 3 others. So the Russian involvement although only a small footnote to that war was in fact a big thing at that time and showed the North that it had many overseas friends, at least it looked that way to them, true or not? who knows and as sking29 states it was long ago dropped into history's file 13 box.
i did not mean to give disrespect if thats how my message came across. I meant it more as a confused statement, as i didn't understand how Lincoln negotiating an alliance with the Russians had anything to do with Marx if communism had not yet come to power, wasn't trying to turn this into a left or right winger thing. Seems to be becoming a habit here of late, but once again im sorry, did not mean any disrespect.
Your political views will always influence how you view history especially when talking about political events (it influences your interpretation of events). Its not meant to be political as you are trying to be neutral but discussing history is about interpreting things and making an argument, so your personal beliefs will come into play. When talking about political events in history I don't see how politics can't come into play, but I think the key is too avoid a purely political discussion and keep the focus on the historical event. The thing about this forum, however, is that things are kept on a professional level and you don't see the personal attacks and banter you see in the POFO. Like with GA and I, from what I can tell we are from two sides of the fence but he has always been respectful to me and I feel that I have been respectful to him as well, and our debates are always enjoyable. If I am being too political for your tastes Danny, I apologize and just tell me if you have a problem (I don't want to offend anyone either).
i meant the habit here of late in regards to me apologising to ga, i did it in another thread in the pofo.
Dannyg28, We are good with eachother. Thank you for the apology. You may not know this but Marx was in England at the time of the WBTS and he took it upon himself to write to Lincoln several times. Their interest, who knows? Some want to paint Lincoln as something he is not, my own personal view is that because Lincoln was talked about as the "common man" that Marx thought to influnce Lincoln which was crazy if you know anything of the man. Once his mind was made up nothing would change it plus he was backed by all of the Northern big money, a true Republican of his day! I have no idea what he would be called today but he certainly would have to change his tune to get elected. Anyway when I first learned of the Russian visit I thought hmmm just maybe Lincoln used Marx while Marx thought he was using Lincoln. Lincoln would not be above doing that IMHO. Of course I say this with tongue in cheek as I surely don't know many of the facts. I hope this clears up all of this for you. Again thank you. Ron PS sking29, we are always good brother.
Are you sure? Nah GA I know I enjoy your debates with me especially since we are the only ones most of the time and you always show me up. Also Danny the offer is still there though that if I ever get out of line just tell me.
I'm not so sure about that one my learned friend. Against you I'll be happy to call it 50/50 but leaning your way!