The Trenches: The Dolphins are a Very Talented Team

As I recall though the team had a losing record when he threw for 500 yards.

 

Yes. 0-1

 

The point wasn't to show that Marshall caused the team to lose games. It was to show that there was some negative correlation between Marshall's reception numbers and the team's W-L record. Correlation is not the same as causation, but it does undercut the idea that Marshall's production is needed for this team to win. There is a value to balance among receivers in that it makes an offense less predictable. That doesn't mean you want balance in every game -- it means you want to be able to ride the "hot hand" or the mismatch. I think that is what we did against Oakland with Hartline. Had Marshall been on the other side, how would he have reacted to that? Would he have pouted about not getting the ball? Would he have thrown the ball to the sideline and dran a delay of game penalty? Would he have been yelling in Tannehill's ear all game about how open he was (even when he wasn't)? We don't know, but we do know that Philbin didn't want him on this team. And, really, that si all that matters.

 

I agree with that. I just don't agree with trading Marshall and then essentially replacing his roster spot with a scrub like Naanee. I refuse to believe it was necessary to scrape the bottom of the barrel like that. Ireland should have been able to sign someone like Meachem. Garcon, or Manningham. Granted they ain't Pro Bowlers, but any of them is a damned sight better than Naanee. Even signing Stallworth would be a definite upgrade over Naanee.

 

Painting Naanee as replacing Marshall isn't really accurate. Naanee was signed to compete with Gates and the rookies basically as a developmental prospect. Which is not inappropriate, as much as Naanee has not been good as a starter he is logically a pretty interesting developmental project. Should Ireland have reasonably expected Johnson to commit career suicide? I'm not sure.

 

But do you have any reason to believe that Joe Philbin had any real interest in Meachem, Garcon or Manningham? The most I remember hearing was some preliminary talks, but I don't know that any of them even made a visit. Is it your belief that Philbin and Sherman were begging Ireland for one fo those guys and he steadfastly refused to make an offer to any of them? I guess it's possible, but the strong sense that I get is that Philbin and Sherman had relatively little interest in any of the major FA receivers. Some of those guys got some pretty big money and I'd be surprised if Philbin or Sherman had any interest in Garcon, Meachem or Laurent Robinson for the $6.5-8.5 million per year it would have cost to sign them. Manningham was cheaper and probably could have been had, but I don't know that he is really that much better than Naanee. Their numbers last year were fairly comparable, but Manningham had twice as many drops. Naanee is bigger, faster, a better blocker and a better special teams player and was one fifth the price of Manningham. Do you really think Manningham would have made that much of a difference? I don't.

 

He's big, can fight for the ball, and has athletic ability within a small area, however, he lacks speed and has inconsistent hands, those two weaknesses can bog down an offense I would think, especially when it comes to certain routes.

Y

 

Good sign of coaching putting up 35 with Hart, Bess and Bush,, wait til we invest a bit into the position this offseason..

 

I don't think it is that. I think it was more about temperament and philosophy. BM demands the ball. He is unhappy when he feels he doesn't get it enough. The whole "Feed the Beast" things is something Philbin said doesn't fit what he wants to do. If you are not going to feed him a lot, his value diminishes a lot. I think they determined that it diminished below the value of his salary and that it would be better to get the picks.

 

I would believe it's more likely they'd be interested in Manningham than in Naanee.

Manningham isn't that much better than Naanee???? Geeze, now I've heard everything when it comes to defending Ireland's decisions. Yeah, MM had a down year in 2011, and he still had more yards, more yards per catch and more TDs than LN did, in his best year for total catches.
Do you really think Naanee could have made that catch in the Super Bowl? More importantly, could he even dream of posting numbers like MM did in 2010 and 2009?
2010: 60 for 944, 15.7 ypc, 5.7 yac, 9 TDs, and caused 10 missed or broken tackles.
2009: 57 for 825, 14.5 ypc, 4.7 yac, 5 TDs, and caused 18 missed or broken tackles, which led all WRs.

Yeah, Naanee is bigger and faster, so he's a better workout warrior. How anyone could ever watch the two of them play WR and think they are roughly equivalent in the most important ability a WR needs to have, (get open and catch the ball), is beyond me.

As for affordability, his contract looks manageable, and if that was too expensive for Miami, after trading Marshall and his contract, then there are some serious issues with cap management, IMO:

Actually, you did mention the by far #1 reason Ireland decided to sign Naanee. Being cheap.
$540,000 cap hit in 2012, while MM has a 2.5mil cap hit. You get what you pay for in this case.
You shop in the bargain basement, you get crap for quality more often than not.
The worst thing about it all though, is better WRs would help Tannehill's development.

 

To win games on a consistent basis in the NFL you have to either out score or stop teams in the passing game. I just don't see either happening.

 

It may not have been the original plan for Naanee to replace Marshall's spot in the WR contingent, but it has worked out that way. He's been in the league since 2007, and he is still nothing more than an interesting developmental project? How many more years will he need to fully develop? How many players from the 2007 draft are still in the league because they are considered nothing more than interesting developmental projects? I would doubt very many, if any.

When the teams were in the midst of free agency, Johnson was still with the Pats. They cut him like June 7 and we signed him like June 11. He was basically an afterthought. I cannot imagine Ireland was showing no interest in other FA WRs through March and early April because he was counting on the Pats cutting Chad in 2 months, and planned then to sign him.

 

Not much different than a group of grown men who have never received a single degree or paycheck associated with football questioning coaches and GMs about football strategies, decisions and such.

 

It's possible to get a BA or BS degree in how to be a proper football expert? Well, since some people have the unmitigated gall to second guess the experts, I propose the only solution is shut down all fan forums. How dare anyone not agree totally with the professional experts. Since you feel that way, I think we can count on you to lead the way by agreeing with every single decision every NFL GM, coach, or scout makes.

 

actually..very different. Apples and Bowling balls.

 

Oh good lord. The guy makes seven figures a year. The LAST thing we should be concerned about is him possibly getting fired and how he will feed his family.

 

I agree with all of that. He gets a bit more time than the average developmental project because of how raw he is, but it's not unreasonable for a #4 or #5 WR.

The plan all along certainly looks like they were looking for a shorter-term "bridge" type player and the largely get by on the strength of Brian Hartline and Davone Bess. Give that whatever merit you want, but I'm not sure it's as demonstrably a stupid idea as a lot of people seem to think.

 

You have a much higher opinion of Manningham than I do. He had a few more yards and TDs in 2011, but fewer catches, a lower catch percentage and twice as many drops. And again, is nowhere near the blocker or special teams player that Naanee is. The catch in the Super Bowl? Really? Are we going to argue about whether a WR would have made a particular catch? That's absurd. Manningham probably only makes that catch 2-3 out of 10 times. I don't know how times Naanee would make it, but not that many less than Manningham. Would Jerry Rice have made the David Tyree Super Bowl catch? Probably not. At least not most times.

Yeah, I do think Naanee would put up numbers like Manningham's 2009-10 numbers if given the opportunity. It's a matter of targets. If you throw the ball to him that much he'd put up similar numbers. Maybe not quite as good because Manningham is probably a little better, but the idea that Manningham would have been some huge upgrade is incorrect IMO.

 

Some of these types of receivers feel that Throwing the ball their way and allowing them to use their athletic ability to make a play, is better than scheming your way down the field and getting tds..

I'm on the side of scheming your way down the field, not throwing fades on 3rd and 9..

On top of that Fineas, I have always thought there is something Bizarre about that dudes game speed..

Take a player like Greg Jennings, put him up against Marshall, one has speed to his game which allows the offense to design routes that finish in the endzone, Marshalls talent dictates come backs, curls, and digs.it's a bit different you know.?

after watchin Marshall for two years, and seeing what he brings to the table,I'll take the two thirds.

 

I agree that there is a difference between Marshall and Jennings but don't think it causes one to allow the team to design routes that end in the endzone and the other not. Marshall is a little slower than Jennings, but is much bigger. Jennings is a little quicker into and out of his routes. For a timing based offense the Jennings style is better IMO in that you know where he'll be at a given time. Marshall is more of a "freelancer" in that he is more of a "just get open" guy. That may not be well stated, but the point is that i think Jennings runs more predictable routes and that is the kind of receiver I think Philbin wants. That, I think, is why Philbin was much more confident in and content with Brian Hartline and Davone Bess than a lot of people around here. While people like to say that a great receiver, or a true no. 1 receiver, helps a rookie QB's development, I think it really depends on the type of WR. A freelancer who will occasionally make the spectacular play but is unreliable doesn't help a young QB develop. I think the reliable guy that the young QB knows will be where he is supposed to be is what helps the young QB.

 

We're really gonna make the case Naanee could be as productive as Manningham? Really?

It's a matter of targets because the guy doesn't run good routes and can't get open.

 

Yes, really. Last year, Naanee had 44 receptions in 497 passing plays. So he got open and caught the ball on 8.8% of his routes. Manningham had 39 receptions in 410 passing plays, so he got open and caught the ball on 9.5% of his routes. I guess we could pretend like that is some big difference, but it's not. Obviously, there are a number of factors that go into all these numbers, such as the QB, the other receivers, pass protection, the style of the offense, etc., but I don't think Manningham is that much better.

 

One of those factors being the Y/R, where Manningham is running deeper routes. It would stand to reason that a guy like Naanee who runs the shorter routes would have a higher %, except that he doesn't. I could be wrong, but my guess is Naanee hasn't been a guy used to stretch the field like Manningham.

 

Naanee has now been unsuccessful on 3 different teams. One of them being the pass heavy San Diego Chargers

Manningham has been relatively successful on the Giants and now looks to be on the same path with the 49ers. 2 different teams.

I don't even think it's a close comparison. Comparing Naanee to Manningham is an insult to Manningham

 

Because stats don't always tell the whole story. I could throw monetary figures of both players at you.

Mario Manningham = 2 year contract worth $7.4 million dollars
Legadu Naaneee = 1 year contract worth $700 K

There, you happy? The league's entire set of GMs views Mario Manningham as worth 6 times more than Naanee. objective enough?

Edit: I really hope this post strengthens the quality of the board back up

 

It doesn't look like that at all.

Naannee is on pace for 0 catches this season and 0 yards
Manningham is on pace for 56 catches this season and 456 yards

Right now, the Dolphins are being ripped off even paying 700K for Naanee. The rest of the league is proving to be right on passing on Legadu Naanee

 

Posts like these are what makes it difficult for me to take you seriously when you accuse others of lacking objectivity.

 

Especially after I was accussed of weakening the quality of the board because I didn't have stats. I then provide Monetary figures of what the "Football" people think of Manningham and Naanee and I get that weak response back

 

Um what was weak about it?

Who wouldn't rather pay $700K for nothing then over $7 million for 56 catches this season and 456 yards?

 

Point being: Mario Manningham is better than Legadu Naanee. Everyone knows it. It's why one guy makes 6 times more money. One guy was in demand around the league and commanded that contract. And the other guy didn't.

 

I'm actually gonna stick up for Ireland here in a weird sense, because I don't think there's any way he intended Naanee to be a starter.

I think maybe he felt handcuffed by Philbin wanting Marshall to be traded and for whatever reason didn't try to acquire any additional talent at the position.