I think this is the most important thing to keep an eye on moving forward with our QB. Remember how we have all talked about over and over the last two years about how none of us could understand how an athlete like Ryan Tannehill could look so clumsy trying to evade the pressure from the defense? Well, I'm truly starting to believe that Mike Sherman literally told this kid you must stay in the pocket at all costs, don't think about running and just go thru your progressions. I say that because during the first two years I heard multiple quotes by sherman that when it came to escaping the pocket I heard 'thats not the way he's gonna learn how to play qb''..I heard him say it and he had an attitude behind it when he did.. So heres what Im thinking, This dude might of just took it to heart and completely allowed his instincts to evade go into hibernation.. Theres just no way an athlete who played wide receiver at a big tie college could look so bad at doing something that takes athleticism. This gets me excited because even though a couple folks like Rafs, Todd tried to tell me it wasn't him, I couldn't get past the thought process and how stupid it was to inhibit a dual threat qb and make him a strict pocket passer. This gets me excited because while I'm still skeptical of ryan in this specific dept, {and I believe its a very important part of a qbs skill set}I now have an open mind to see if this element can be re-engaged and to see if Ryan does have it in him to anticipate and improv us into some playmaking ability at the position with a new coordinator who is now encouraging him to use these senses. Ryans skill set coming out of A&M..Shermans philosophy on strict pocket passing...Ryans inability to anticipate and evade pressure the first two years. doesn't add up, but it does add up know what I'm saying? clean slate for me moving forward in this dept, this will be a great test that ryan has not met yet in terms of this specific qb trait, {on the road, hostile environment, great dline} I will be keeping a close eye on his ability to anticipate and evade pressure with his new teacher at his side..I will hope to see that Mike sherman was responsible for ryan putting this instinct and athleticism into dormant phase in his mind.. im excited to see if there is a whole new element to our qb.
Interesting post. In my opinion aside from Sherman the line was the biggest problem. I kept trying to tell you guys last year Tannehill was TRYING to move in the pocket but the rush was just ridiculoys on him. This year IMO it took him a few games to realize he wasn't going to be eaten alive. Getting him on the move, even read option plays, has helped as well.
Agreed. We've seen him make plays this year that would not have been possible last year. The td to Wallace against the bears, no way does he get that kind of time. The deep ball to Wallace against the jags, the line gave him a pocket that allowed him to step up and then escape with a clear lane and clear path to Wallace. Even the small stuff like the td pass to Mathews, he does a pump fake and then scrambles. That wouldn't have been possible last year.
It is an interesting post. Tannehill's biggest thing against him has always been that he was going to be developmental and needed to gain experience on being not only an NFL QB, but a QB in general. I've always thought that the plan was to make him learn to be a QB, make him sit in the pocket and read a defense. We took those growing pains these last 2 years and this year, I believe, its paying off. Guys like Vick, Vince Young, and RG3 were allowed to run wild their first couple of years in the league and their teams relied on it and they never learned to read an NFL defense. We are seeing the fruits of making Tannehill sit and read the defense before running this year, i.e. the TD through to Matthews last week. Tannehill probably would have run that last year, instead, by learning patience and how to keep his eyes down field, he made a huge throw for a TD instead of just running for a 1st down. It took Vick going to prison to learn to read defenses and be a passing QB, RG3 is just now starting to learn it because he has been injured so much and can't rely on his athleticism, and Vince Young never learned it. Whether it was by design or not, having Tannehill stick to the pocket his first 2 years made him a better throwing QB who didn't have to rely on his athleticism to win games. Now he is very dangerous doing both, which gives the team and elite skill set to use every week.
Now that he's doing it, expect it to get better as the games go by. He's shown an ability to learn from his visuals. Experience can't be overstated...the more escapes, shifts, improvisations he sees, the better he'll be at it. Sky's the limit for this kid.
agreed. It's pretty simple IMO. - look at Romo - looked 10x better because he has an elite Oline - look at Brady - once his line solidified, he went from "done" back to elite - Matt Ryan tanked when his Oline went south -Tannehill blossomed when we went from 1 good Olineman to 4.
no, this is different, even under duress, a player who has the proper athleticism will instinctively move better than what ryan was displaying, thats why I said the correlation of his athletic ability and what was being shown on the field was not adding up, to me of course the line was a sieve, disgusting on all count, however Im thinking that he wasn't thinking about escaping it, even in the face of that gross display of protection sherman was teaching him strict pocket responsibilities..over the past two years I was saying that ryans lack of athletic ability in that part of the game could be coming from Shermans philosophy, but I just couldn't get myself to think someone would be that stubborn, especially when you have an online that was that bad and no running game. so what I'm saying is this, if ryan didn't have restraints on him by his college and pro coordinator, and was allowed to improv when he sensed pressure, regardless of how pathetic the line was, what we should of seen was better athletic movement by the qb, the bad movement was, I think because his mind was shut off to doing so..thats my hope.
so you would be giving appreciation to sherman for sacrificing his job for the development of the qb and sacrificing wins in the process.?
this is not addressing what I'm getting at. I'm talking about why we saw a QB who unprecedentedly made a switch of positions from wide receiver to qb, then when he got to the pros, he looked like a snail in the pocket, I'm saying that I think sherman and his teachings had mosty to do with what we saw out of him athletically, because even if you have as poor of line as we did the athlete that ryan is should of made evading pressure look better, I think his instinct was neutered..and thats what it looks like..
I think you are on to something dj. It's hard to think a person could be that stubborn and sacrifice his career like you are implying Sherman did. If he did, I'm glad he did and it has paid off. Assuming he did, if he wouldn't have I don't think RT could have developed into the QB he is now. Either way, I'm glad we have Lazor now and Sherman is gone. Even if he can be credited for this development of RT with his stubbornness, he was a horrible play caller.
I think the truth is always in-between. - Sherman probably restricted Ryan because the Oline was so historically bad that it gave him very few options to go with Sherman's limited imagination - while Ryan's athletic ability should have helped him, I wouldn't call Ryan "elusive" as your typical running QB. and again, the line was so bad, that Ryan was probably gunshy about doing anything other than trying to get the ball out quickly. -bottom line for me: Ryan was "neutered" partially from terrible line and partially from Sherman's teachings (or lack thereof). A good Oline makes it so much easier to do anything on offense. look at San Fran. Their line has been dominant the last few years and CKaep looks wonderful. - 2013 - San Fran had top 5 Oline, 2014 - San Fran has bottom 5-10 Oline, CKaep looks crappy - 2013 - Miami has bottom 5 Oline, 2014 - I've seen their line ranked 10-12. huge upswing for Tannehill
there is all kinds of disfuntion on that niner team, don't trust what you see, Kap is still posting a 95 qbr alongside 35 rushing yards a game..thats damn good. don't want this to turn into that though...Your right about ryan not being the typical escape artist, but if it was masked last year by him, and there is another level of anticipation and quickness to react, I'm stoked..
sunday is going to be a great test, detroit defense is good, they're in first place and ford field can get loud..hes gonna need to escape. if we see a tangible difference in his quickness to react to the pressure we will know that were on to something.
and FinD. While i give credit for that, none was telling me about what I'm saying in this thread.. maybe its like ryan turned a part of his brain off, folks were just telling me its all about online, this is different.. and remember, it hasn't happened yet, but if it does, I don't chalk it up to just o-line
You sure? I know for a fact I've made a few posts saying a lot of Tannehill's lack of elusiveness in the pocket is due to the fact he was facing a jailbreak instead of a rusher or two form one side. There's only 3 directions a QB can ostensibly go left, right or up and often our line cut that down to 0.
i tried to explain in the early posts of this thread, let me try to be more clear.. no matter what conditions, if you have free reign, your going to be able to see what you have from an athletic standpoint, ryans was so bad in those situations relative to what we knew about his talent, it just left us perplexed ya know?...now if sherman did what I think he did, and ryan obliged and turned that specific switch to the off position, then I see that result making sense to me.. the exciting part of all this is that it might be true..we'll see..I don't know yet, I know what to look for, I know how to identify it when I see it, so I'll wait, there were some glimpses. my stance is not just blaming the line for what we saw in this dept, some will disagree, athleticism is athleticism, it doesn't choose when to work, but if the mind is turned off, then i can see that.
I dunno if it is a switch or just a matter of fighting his instincts on top of learning the game and trying to get up to play speed, mixed with poor play design and play calling......BUT now that the oline is better, the oc is different, he seems to be playing better and more instinctually. Point being, I know you want one specific factor that caused him to be different like a switch, but I think its more likely it was a few things. And yes, its very exciting.
I think maybe it's just how people learn. it's possible Ryan knows what he can do athletically.. But was convicted in learning to be a pocket QB first. The truth is DJ.. Until Ryan tells people we will never know and maybe it's not important. He's doing it now..
I don't think he needs to tell us, and I absolutely think its very important..this is about knowing what we have in terms of a ceiling.
yeah see I don't, I think if your told by your coordinator that you can't do something like this, you flip a switch off..this was a pretty big thing to tell your qb not to do...we didn't run read option..we didn't allow him to run..we kept him strict in the pocket and he became obsessed and it ultimately failed.
that pump fake -> scramble -> TD to Matthews was a sure fumble last year. The shell shock horror still had me gasp a little when I saw his arm go and no ball leave his hand...thought it was a fumble / strip somehow. (Plus that was a NASTY pump fake)
If his lack of elusiveness was a switch he could turn off, then when he was forced to stay put the last couple of years he would have been more decisive in staying put. instead, there were times of panic.
Maybe being Philbin came from Green Bay where his QB was Aaron Rodgers it was he who forced Sherman to force Tanny to stay in the Pocket? Who knows? Point now is he and Lazor are on the same page and he is working with Marino and his game has improved tremendously while using all of his athletic ability.
the point I'm making is he was decisive to stay in the pocket..his mind was shut off to the alternative..once its to late panic sets in...maybe his ability to multitask was take away from him.
I get what you're saying but I don't really agree. Last season I saw Tannehill -attempt- moves in the pocket used by elite passers. He never had to learn it, it was there (in some form) already. I do agree Sherman restricted his ability to do so, but not in the most obvious way.
its very imortant for me to know if he was strictly enforced to not run..by seeing an extreme difference in the trait, and putting these theories together, it will tell me what I need to know without him telling us..im excited to see if the extreme happens.
post makes no sense. he may of always known it to be there, but from what sherman was teaching him { things I heard come out of both their mouths} he shut that part of his game off to do what he was told, thats why we saw such futility trying to evade...just A theory.
DJ, you need more evidence for the point you are trying to make. Without that it's just a theory that will never be proven without getting an answer from Sherman or RT. I remember Sherman saying some things along the lines of what you are talking about but of course it was blatantly obvious along the lines of what you are saying. I can't remember the exact words but something along the lines that RT is gonna be a pocket passer first and foremost. If I cared about it enough I would find the video for you but it's a moot point. Even if I found it, people would still argue what they are arguing. The only thing that matters is this year we have a very talented pocket passing QB that has legs for weapons and is definitely using them this year.
thats exactly what he said..''MY QB IS GOING TO BE A POCKET PASSER FIRST AND FOREMOST'' Thats a lot of evidence. the context of the statement is important as well, this was a response to a question asking why such an athlete like ryan doesn't seem to scramble well.
