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Thoughts on benching Tua?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jdallen1222, Nov 22, 2020.

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  1. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  2. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    My concern at this point is Denver just gave the NFL the blueprint. How long will it take for Tua to get through that learning curve and will it be too late for this season?
     
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  3. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That’s certainly a concern, but you have to have the defensive personnel to pull that off as well. You could argue that the Dolphins gave the league the blueprint for Justin Herbert two weeks ago, but he rebounded with a fine game yesterday nonetheless, against inferior competition.
     
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  4. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    . Good point. I also think Herbert is much further ahead of Tua at this point. My intention isn’t to bash Tua or to say I told you so about wanting Herbert. I’m just more concerned that it will take longer for Tua. Hopefully NYJ is a good game for him to rebound from.
     
  5. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Let me tell you one thing that I am 100% convince about Coach Flo - He wants to win more than any other coach that I can remember.

    What makes him different is that he is proactive about winning. He is not a guy that will sit by idly and just hope things will change.

    -Go for two to win the game instead of playing for overtime - yup
    -Start a late round RB coming off an injury despite paying big money for a RB in free agency and trading for one in the offseason - of course
    -Release a bust of a free agent midway through a season - gone!
    -Will bench a first round QB in favor of an aging vet - he's done it twice
    -Give a majority of playing time at nickel back to an undrafted FA over a first round pick - you got it!

    I just do not think that Flores is wired to put his fate in his own hands rather than hoping someone based on draft position or salary lives up to their billing.

    Does it suck for Tua? Yes, but the message is clear, "If you want to play, you are gonna have to play well." I don't think that mentality is that different from his father. I do think that this is good for the team as a whole. Flores is gonna play the guys that give him the best chance of wining. Period.
     
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  6. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure every NFL coach wants to win a near equal amount. I'd say Flores might just be better at it than most.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  7. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    vs.





     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  8. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    It looked like he tweaked his ankle. Flores could have used that as an excuse to take the media scrutiny off of the rookie.

    Come on man, you know he hasn't played nearly enough to have any idea what his variation will be. He hasn't seen anything in the pros yet. Each new defensive twist has the potential to cause issues for a rookie.
     
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  9. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I think the message was and is clear with Flores. If you aren't getting it done, someone else will. Tua is a team guy, I see no reason to coddle him. Too much of that seems to be going on these days. I would have liked to see Tua stick with it, but I feel like he was headed towards an awful disaster and possible injury with the shots he was taking. It's over and done with. On to New York. It's a nice bounce back opportunity for him and I think he'll rebound just fine. At first I looked at this as a miss on Flos part, but after two days to think about it, it was certainly the right call.
     
  10. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    My only issue is that I find the situation to be valuable on field experience. You want to know if your QB is going to be able to shake off a bad game, in game, and make plays when it matters.

    I dont hate the move or love it, at the end of the day Tua will succeed or fail and I dont think it has anything to do with pulling him for about a quarter in his rookie year.
     
  11. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I prefer to let them 'see it through'. I also agree that it's an overreaction to assume that pulling him is detrimental to his mental healthy and well being as a football player. There were people proclaiming that! The whole ordeal a mixed bag as well for me. He wasn't playing good, but he hadn't turned the ball over. He was taking a lot of hits and the entire vibe was trending towards injury if it would have continued. The offense was ineffective but we were still in the game at the time. Maybe it was tough love on the part of Flores? Maybe it was simply the defense being unreadable for him! There was nothing there for him, the offensive line was the worst I have seen all season and the whole thing was just complete chaos. Chaos is an environment that Fitzpatrick can at times thrive in, he's got like 10 kids or something so i'm sure he's no stranger to wild environments. I myself do better when things are chaotic at times. It could have been a simple momentum grab by Flores as well. Initially I thought Tua was injured the way he got rolled up. At that point as a coach after seeing that, I may be inclined to say 'screw it, you're outta there kiddo'. Live to fight another day type of thing. As I said on Sunday, I am personally 100 percent certain that we will all have our answer in regards to Tua by the end of the season. Flores wants to win, we all want to win, but we need to know what Tua is for us. It's a tough spot to be in and I applaud the way coach has handled it thus far.
     
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  12. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The issue there was that not only did Denver's defense have the magic bullet for Tua and the offense all day, but at that point you would've very likely compounded that problem by trying to combat it while running a two-minute offense starting in your own end zone. There's no way in hell Tua and company would've pulled that off, if the game previously was any indication. A two-minute offense is difficult enough for a rookie QB to run just in general, let alone under those circumstances. If Flores wanted to win the game and not just give Tua experience, Fitzpatrick was the correct choice there.
     
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  13. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the Guy. It was clear Tua wasn’t able to get anything going and there was nothing more to learn by getting sacked more and going 3 & out. 83 yards in 3.5 quarters in a league that caters to QB’s is abysmal. It was time to jump start our offense and try to win the game.
     
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  14. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Only part I slightly disagree with is the line. I do agree it was far from their best showing, but Tua isnt identifying the rushers pre-snap very well and held on to the ball way too long on most of the sacks.

    There were maybe 3 that I'd put on him, two squarely on the line and one id split the blame between (there was a free rusher but Tua never really saw him or if he did it was last second, a rusher from his left as well where he should identify it)

    That's kind of what you expect from a rookie QB though in a bad game. They happen and it's something he can improve.
     
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  15. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I didn't like it at first, but putting it that way makes a lot of sense. You mention a two-minute offense and just going off of that, Fitz...I much better at doing than Tua is by a country mile. I have honestly yet to see Tua do something like that at all just yet. At the end of the day, I really don't think it's as big of a deal as I personally made about it initially. I think being able to work in chaotic situations with the two-minute offense being a prime example is why guys like Ryan Fitzpatrick have a job in the NFL. It takes a craftsman at the position to do that and Fitzpatrick is definitely that at this point. He's just not the best craftsman. Aaron Rodgers, Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Mahomes, even Carson Wentz as bad as he's been this year. They are masters at doing that. Tua needs to get there and I think he will. He should bounce back against the Jets and after that we have the Bengals. Those are two 'safe' games for him to play before he gets a huge test against Kansas City. I honestly don't expect him to have too many struggles against either the Jets or the Bengals. However, both games in my opinion are a bit of false advertising on his part, and if he can't get it done against those teams, we may have a problem. No, the Kansas City game is going to demand things from him, and that's the game I want to see him in. I want to see how he does against the elite competition. Arizona was slouch and he rose to the occasion against them. He'll need to do it against KC.
     
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  16. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    The KC game will be demanding but honestly their defense is pretty bad. Just trying to keep pace will be the test, not the defense itself.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Tua's benching reminded me why I stopped listening to Sports Talk. Everything is taken to the eXtreme!!!

    IMO, I am fine with Tua's benching. He was at a point where he was stuck in his head and probably putting too much pressure on himself to succeed. This is probably the worst game of his life and while it would have been nice for him to come out on the 4th quarter and bounce back, sometimes it is good just to get out of the situation to get a bigger perspective.

    Every thing I have read about Tua is that he is a hard worker and very competitive. He has a lot to learn and there has never been a young QB that didn't have a game where they struggled. Heck, all veteran QBs have terrible games. No need to panic just yet.
     
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  18. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this but I also think the next two games will be very telling for him. Not career defining but going up against two very poor teams after a bad game is just about the best scenario you can ask for in terms of a young QB.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I would feel better if he came back and dominated the Jets. However, I don't think much would be telling overall. He still has a lot to learn.
     
  20. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Just out of curiousity, how long do you personally feel it takes to get a handle on a QB?

    Obviously if he dominates that is the answer to it, but in a scenario where hes playing "fine" but not great?
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Personally Tua's circumstances is weird since he didn't have a full offseason and spent a lot of it getting his hip ready to go.

    Though I think eight games is a good time to start showing something. However, I think a lot of that goes out of the window in the 2nd year because defenses have a lot of tape, so they have to go beyond "PLUS ULTRA!"

    Unless you are Mahomes.
     
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  22. ripper1961

    ripper1961 Active Member

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    After our QB played poorly through the whole game and our defense being gashed for rushing yards almost the entire game we still had a chance to pull it off at the end. Sorry just trying to look for something positive out of a loss.:censored:
     
  23. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    He is a rookie and we have to give him some time, so I say like a week should be good..... because if loses to Gase and the Jets.......:crapstrom: :2guns:
     
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  24. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  25. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    He looked as if he was confused more this time than before. If that is the case, and he doesn't respond well, his progress may be problematic. My concern would be how HE responds this week. If he has problems because of a bad game, and regresses - that would be a large red warning - Danger Will Robinson!
     
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  26. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  27. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And I suspect this is because his receivers suck:
     
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  28. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    Tua got benched again but this time we won. Very interesting game
     
  29. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Love it. A no nonsense coach. And I think this is something that rubbed off from Belichick who would bench anyone except Brady for poor performance (Brady was just too important long term). I remember how Belichick would bench RB's that fumbled ONE TIME in a game. Belichick would later clarify that he wasn't trying to "send a message", just trying to put the best players on the field to win.

    Flores is showing the same approach and I like it.
     
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  30. Alan in England

    Alan in England Member

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    Flores says Tua starting next week. Big mistake. I will bet on him not finishing the game
     
  31. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Like I pointed out in the game day thread, pulling Tagovailoa was the right call. He was only getting 4.3 yards per pass. Was he exercising ball security? Absolutely! No turnovers and that's great but with nothing but 2nd and 3rd stringer receivers and Tua being a rookie himself, they team needed a veteran to lead them at that point.

    Tua makes great throws when his receivers GET open but being a rookie playing at the NFL level, he hasn't learned how to GET his receivers open. Fitz was able to do that and get the ball downfield.

    It's going to take time for Tagovailoa to become a true NFL level quarterback but when your team is competing for the playoffs, you don't sacrifice the TEAM for quarterback development.
     
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  32. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    He really isn't playing like someone worthy of the fifth overall pick at this point.
     
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  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I told my dad entering the 4th that Miami wasn't going to win that game with Tua, but I had serious doubts that Flores would bench him. That's such an impossible call...stick with a rookie who's taking a few sacks but playing hard and protecting the football, or bring out the gunslinger in hopes that he can summon some last minute magic?

    As I've said all year, Fitz is the better quarterback today, but Tua is the future and needs these reps to get there quickly.

    I honestly believe Flores pulled Tua at the perfect time; I personally would have pulled him one series earlier but I was also SHOCKED when Fitzpatrick actually took the field. What a bold move by a young head coach! And I sat there almost sick to my stomach waiting for Fitz to get too aggressive and throw the game-ending pick. Instead, we saw absolute magic from the veteran as he carved up the Raiders and marched down the field.

    That final pass, the one where Fitz almost had his head ripped off....that was honestly the most amazing NFL pass I've ever seen in my entire life. I'd love to see some Next Gen stats on the completion possibility of a QB being jerked sideways and to the ground by an illegal grab....you'd think the possibility would be zero. Simply incredible and it only worked because the Raiders blew the coverage that badly.

    Going into next Sunday with the chance of playing the Bills two weeks in a row, I don't see how you don't start Fitzpatrick. But the part that really gets me is how Tua/Fitz support each other and work to make each other better. We're going to beat Buffalo folks, I don't know how...but it's going to happen.
     
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  34. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Tua has to learn when receivers are NFL open and sometimes has to throw a deep ball to keep defenses on their heels. Overall I'm very confident, that we got our guy, you see flashes here and there and he takes good care of the football most of the time. Like the accuracy, the quick release and his feel for the pocket already, he just has to stay healthy. With Fitz we have the perfect backup, hope he stays here a little longer and it seems him and Tua really do get along great and the offense seems to play hard for both of the guys and there seems to be no locker room issues.
     
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  35. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  36. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I was all for bringing Tua back in the first time he was benched against Denver.

    That said, I dont see how you look your team in the eyes with the playoffs on the line and tell them Fitz isnt starting week 17.

    Maybe we do win and it turns out fine. I'm just saying from a human perspective if I'm a guy on the roster I know which QB I think gives me the best chance right now.
     
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  37. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    This is going to sound like a cop out so to speak and it probably is. I want the Giants to beat Baltimore today and that'll be that. We'll have the spot and Tua can go up to Buffalo and play without the must win pressure for at least one game. Maybe he'll let loose and throw all over the place and find his confidence to do it in a playoff game. A more realistic scenario is that Baltimore crushes the Giants and we have to win in Buffalo next week and if that's the case i'm going to watch that game with my eyes closed if Tua starts.
     
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  38. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I was a bit ambivalent about starting Tagovailoa during what, week 7? I really thought we wouldn't see Tua start until around week 10 when we would have been mathematically "eliminated" from the playoffs. I can't help but feel there was pressure from above to start him for the fan base and of course, the almighty dollar, but that's neither here nor there. It is what it is.

    What worries me about Tagovailoa's development is he's been benched twice this season; once when we were being blown out and a second because he wasn't being productive in a close game. It just concerns me that it's going to cause a trust and lack of respect issue. I certainly hope I'm wrong.

    Hell on paper, we shouldn't even be where we are right now. At best we should be praying that we could finish the season 8-8...and that would be a stretch, but to be in the position we are now...with such a young and new team? It's utterly amazing.
     
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  39. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    The fact that Flo has twice brought in the cavalry to try to bail out games should reflect his desire to win. That flies in the face of the notion that he was compelled to put Tua in for reasons other than immediate competitive success. On the other hand, Fitz sees a different game than Tua and his willingness to take risks provides high risk and high rewards on a team lacking playmakers. Flo is making the right calls for the right reasons, both long term and immediate. For someone who is so focused, he's remarkably flexible. He and Matt LeFleur should be the only ones considered for CoY.
     
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  40. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I know, right? I keep reminding myself that we're playing with house money this season. We undertook a foundational rebuild that typically would take 3-4 years to deliver results and it looks like we're at least a year ahead of schedule.
     
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