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Tim Graham thinks Sanchez is better than Henne

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by SeanP, May 5, 2010.

  1. Eop05

    Eop05 Junior Member Club Member

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    If Henne had the #1 ranked Defense in the NFL, Miami would've won 12 games this season.

    The Jets went 8-8 with the #1 ranked Defense and the #1 ranked rushing offense. That kind of team has no business winning less than 11 games, which even an average QB would've accomplished.

    Sanchez single handily almost cost the Jets the playoffs. Do the Buffalo, New Orleans, and Atlanta games ring a bell?
     
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  2. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    But why does Sanchez start out ahead? He didn't lead Henne in any meaningful statistic.
     
  3. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    not sure i care about the 2009 assessment
    i care more about henne's progression in 2010
    and we have brandon marshall! :tongue2:
     
  4. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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  5. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    well he leads in playoff wins but not because of his doing. He played a very secondary role though. I wouldn't take him over henne because of it.

    Good to see you around dude :)
     
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  6. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Sanchez also had 8 more picks in 91 less attempts. When you look at completion percentage and QB rating that really tells the story. Henne is better at this point and now we will see what he can with some weapons around him.
     
  7. Phinatic425

    Phinatic425 MIA State of Mind

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    My exact thoughts... The proof is in the pudding.

    And all signs point to Henne!
     
  8. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I dunno either. And I wasnt going after him personally, thats not my style. I'm taking exception to what he said. I think anyone who watched Sanchez and Henne would see the differences. Sanchez plays an unorthodox game, he's not fundamentally sound, most notably in his ball security and pocket movement. Henne on the other hand, is one of the more fundamentally sound young QB's in the league, he does almost everything by the book, you'd almost call him a boring/robotic QB.

    When the poster made the comment about sloppy footwork and inconsistent mechanics it was way past obvious he was referring to Sanchez. For whatever reason, NC latched onto it to support his point, thinking it was Henne that the poster was referring to. That tells me he either hasnt watched the games closely or he doesnt know what he's watching. Nothing personal, just my opinion...
     
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  9. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I dont think you can take their whole body of work last year and say Sanchez was better. Henne clearly outplayed him. He bails himself out a bit by saying that Sanchez played his best in the playoffs thereby allowing him to "project" that he will be able to carry it over. But when you look at what Henne had to work with in terms of injured linemen and injured running backs and poorer receivers that argument becomes somewhat ridiculous. Add the fact that Henne is 2-0 against Sanchez so far in their careers. Henne clearly outplayed Sanchez. This is the year where you will see Henne pull away from Sanchez big time. My prediction is Sanchez gets severly injured this year due to his penchant for holding onto the ball too long
     
  10. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    :hi5: Reminds me of how we were the media darlings after we signed Culpepper in Saban's second season. Everyone has forgotten how Atlanta and Jacksonville went into East Rutherford and spanked the Jets, they only reached the playoffs b/c the Colts sat thier starters and if you need futher prook just look at the AFC Championship game. Its all good though, the media needs story lines, and the Jets need to sell PSLs so I understand why all this is happening. But IMO, the Jets, Dolphins and Pats all have about a 32% chance of winning the division, I'll leave the other 4% to the Bills.
     
  11. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If anyone thinks Sanchez is the better QB they're out of their minds.

    Play off performance? are you kidding me? His QB rating against Cincy was 139 but he attempted only 15 passes. Talk about inflationary.

    Why pick and choose which stats to look at? Look at the whole body of work. Sanchez had the whole offseason and still was terrible. Henne didn't have first team snaps until week 3 and still out performed.
     
  12. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    :knucks: Ridiculous indeed. The Fins organization as a whole doesnt care much for the media and I think the feeling is mutual. Perhaps that explains it, that and the Jets are in the largest media market in the world, and of course Rex Ryan is the most quotable head coach since Jim Mora, PLAYOFFS???

    This will be the year when we find out about both Henne and Sanchez. MS wil have to throw the ball more because NY just doesnt have the RBs to carry them through the whole season. Shonn Greene (Mr. Top 10 lol) lasted exactly two games as the lead back before he got hurt. His running style is such that he wont last past the bye week, so for his sake I hope he tones it down a bit b/c there arent any threatening runners behind him. Henne will still have the luxury of handing the ball to Ronnie and Ricky, but because of Ronnie's injury history, Ricky's age, and Marshall's arrival, I think Miami will make more of an effrort to use the pass. Long story short, I'd love to have this discussion a year from now, but I doubt it'll be necessary.
     
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  13. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Come on Nabo, you're better than this.

    Henne has good footwork. One of the things that impressed me most about him when he took over was his movement in the pocket. Very good at sliding around avoiding pressure and finding space to throw the ball. It was a little surprising to me to watch him be so calm and collected in the pocket for such a young QB and a first time starter. But only a little surprising because Henne is a beast.
     
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  14. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    I wasnt sure if that was the way it was intended or not, just wanted to make sure. I was the poster who pointed out Sanchez's footwork, mechanics etc but Im pretty sure Nabo was just giving me the business. :up:

    I totally agree with you about Henne though. I felt prior to the start of the 2008 college football season he was the best QB that would be available that year and I wont back away from that because I truly believe he will be the next great QB in the league. It goes much deeper then just mechanics and fundamentals. Look at what Henne brought to the table coming out.

    1. Experience - Most starts in the history of major college football by a QB
    2. Accuracy - Completed around 58-61% in most games in college
    3. Leadership/Knowledge of offense - Knows his job and everyone else's
    4. Played in a pro style offense at Michigan
    5. TD/Int Ratio - Shows good decision making and ability to finish drives

    None of that has changed. Sanchez only brought 3 of those things to the table by comparison (3,4,5). I liked him coming out but I have not seen the accuracy I expected to see from him last year. We will see if that changes but I hope I was wrong on that one. :up:
     
  15. The Aqua Crush

    The Aqua Crush New Member

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    Well you could also bold the line under what was bolded. The caveat. I think tim has a fair and logical reason why he thinks what he does at this point in time.

    I hope Henne will soon be first on that list. With his ascention and Brady's decention. And Sanchez's implosion.
     
  16. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    3. Ryan had to water his offense down to Runs and Play action passes...

    4. Michigan? (breakin ur balls here)

    5. LOL. 20 picks ('nuff said). Decision making? You sure he didn't just throw it to whomever he was told to by the guy in the headset?


    IMO, Sanchez has none of those quailities. He does have 2 good games in the play offs though :tongue2:
     
  17. SeanP

    SeanP Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I wasn't trying to call him out by that bolding or anything, I just pointed that out since the quote was kind of long, and thats where he made the statement.

    I can understand why he says what he says. I'm just saying I don't agree with the assessment, and thought it would spark good discussion on the topic at hand, not so much his opinion. Guess I should have picked a better title...
     
  18. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Inflationary? More like efficient.
     
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  19. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IMO Sanchez was a superior college prospect and if Henne had played his rookie year (even with the better team) he would have performed worse than Sanchez did last year. Everybody seems to be comparing the stats and ignoring the fact that Sanchez was a rookie and Henne was a second year player.

    Going forward, I think they'll be pretty close. I thought that second Miami/Jets game was pretty indicative of what the future may hold. Both QBs were counter punching effectively and evenly. The outcome of that game was determined by factors aside from the QB play since they were so even.
     
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  20. Steve-Mo

    Steve-Mo 'Saban' Guy

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    Yes, yes! I thought no one else agreed with me on this.

    This man had two offseasons and an entire season to get to understand the offense, see it run, learn the playbook, work on getting better, etc etc. Sanny had an offseason and 4 preseason games.

    Your 2nd paragraph sums up my thoughts on the situation in the future as well.
     
  21. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And there's a good reason you don't start rookie quarterbacks, and it's inherently tied to who is going better forward. When you start a rookie you risk them developing bad habits.

    Like in Mark Sanchez' case, like being unable to throw to the left for some reason without it being a disaster.
     
  22. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Read it again. You missed what I said entirely. It was based on what I saw from Henne coming out of Michigan and then the few things I saw from Sanchez when he came out. :up:

    Except Henne was a late 2nd round pick therefore he's supposed to take longer to develop based on what all the talent evaluators say. Sanchez was a top 10 pick, he's supposed to produce right away based on his contract and the expectations of a top ten pick as a franchise caliber player. Sanchez failed miserably in those respects and then somewhat salvaged his year in the playoffs. Henne came in mid-season, in an 0-3 hole and put us in a position to make the playoffs until the defense crumbled. It wasn't even close who was better in my opinion.
     
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  23. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, you're on a Dolphin forum, you really can't expect much objectivity. I'm sure if you asked which team (Miami or NYJ) will do better next year on the Jet's forum, the Jets would win by a landslide. Objectively, the Jets were more successful on the season as a whole but the Dolphins were more successful against the Jets and against the division (most years division success is strongly correlated with season success). Individual biases will weight one objective factor over the other.

    With regards to the Henne/Sanchez debate, some will place more importance on last year's stats and the supporting cast and others will place more importance on years in the league and playoff performance. All the talk about footwork, defense reading, etc., is completely subjective and for the most part uninformed crap.
     
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  24. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Some players overcome it (Marino, Manning, etc.), but IMO it usually does more harm than good. We'll see how Sanchez does going forward. At this point it is impossible to say that starting as a rookie had/will have a positive/negative impact on Sanchez.
     
  25. burger13

    burger13 New Member

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    Sanchez was bad. one of the worst starting QB in the league last year.

    12 TD and 20 INt is not a decent year by any standard.

    worse yet for the 'Sanchize' (yuk!) is his 4th qtr/OT numbers:

    1 TD, 10 INT, 49%, 39.7 QB rating.

    The Jests were also 0-7 in games in which Sanchez was asked to throw the ball 20+ times after september
     
  26. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing off-year stats. It happens all the time: Drew Brees versus Peyton Manning, for example. It's impossible to have every QB begin at the same starting point, so the numbers are always going to differ. That's why passing YPA and QB rating are important.

    Also, I disagree that Sanchez was a superior prospect. He played only one year of college ball, so it's tough for me to say he was the same type of prospect as Manning or even Henne.

    Sanchez has a lot of growing to do. More than Henne.
     
  27. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Sanchez is 1000X better than Henne.
     
  28. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sanchez was a top 10 prospect, Henne was a late first/early second prospect. I don't mean just where they were drafted, but how they were rated by most. You may decide to more heavily weigh the one year of starting, but most people would put that behind the actual production of the players.
     
  29. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    It's Tim's opinion, that's all.
     
  30. Wildcat23

    Wildcat23 Here kitty kitty

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    I remember someone posting the dolphins rankings of their board from a couple years ago. I believe it had(QBs) Ryan, Flacco,and Henne ranked 95, 93, 90 respectively. I wonder where they ranked Sanchez last year.
     
  31. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Insert "so was Ryan Leaf" form response here. :lol:

    Seriously, I did not have Mark Sanchez rated very highly coming out at all. Yes, I weighed the fact that he has only one year of college experience very heavily. I also weighed heavily that he wasn't even the best college QB in that one year.

    I don't discount the possibility that Sanchez could be very good one day. I certainly caught a lot of flak on this very forum for pointing out that Sanchez had improved in the playoffs versus his regular season performance. But he's simply not there, and I'm baffled by the sports media acting as if he's already great.
     
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  32. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    I post this with the following caveat: by the end of the 2010 season none of this matters (We as dolphin fans HOPE)

    Miami/Jets second game:
    Sanchez - 20 for 35 2TDs no ints rating 100.3
    Post season 2/1 rating of 92.7
    Regular season 8/7 rating of 63.0

    Chad Henne - 12 for 21 1TD no ints rating 87.8
    Post season 0 rating 0
    Regular season 7/6 rating 75.2

    Miami/Jets first game:
    Sanchez - 12 for 24 rating 87.5
    Henne - 20 for 26 rating 130.4

    First year for both guys Sanchez much younger in terms of knowledge yet at seasons end, during post season preformed quite well winning two of the three games played with a rating of 92.7.

    I chose the two Miami/Jets games for a reason as both guys played well, in point of fact Henne imho had his best game of the year with a rating of 130.4 in the first game which clearly he played a major part in winning. The second game, save for Ginn’s 2 returns and JT’s defensive TD would have left Henne with a record of 6/7.

    You throw in the fact that Henne played no post season games it naturally would give the edge to Sanchez.

    At the end of the day, for me, I don’t give a hoot in hell about how good or bad Mark Sanchez is or becomes. On the other hand I care very much how Chad Henne performs and the above stats point to a real lack of consistency on his part. Is this telling or merely the first years’ growing pains? This coming season better give us, and this FO, the answer to that question if we are to become the team we all are hoping and praying they become.
     
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  33. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    we will reap the harvest of Chad Henne this season
    mentored by Pennington, protected by the Orca-5
    sustained by a premier running attack & receiving corp
    it's now the IceMan's time to show & he will big time
    Sanchez will self-destruct under the weight of the NFL
    the IceMan cometh:dolphin:the jests will implode
     
  34. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    ...so long as he makes an excellent tackling dummy for Odrick and gang.
     
  35. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    for those of you saying, it was sanchezs rookie year, you can't compare the stats. I dont think anyone is saying, look at the #s, it proves Hennes going to be the better pro. were just saying, look at the #s and everything else, Hennes was without a doubt better last year. so the whole proofs in the pudding is complete crap. because as of this second Hennes has proven to be better. not the other way around, despite people trying to imply such...




    Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk
     
  36. dwhorton

    dwhorton New Member

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    henne played against 5 of the best pass d's according to football outsiders last year.lets see what sanchez could've done against the jets.you people saying sanchez was a rookie and henne was in year 2 . here is the difference sanchez was a top 5 pick, henne in the mid 2nd rd. top 5 picks are supposed to play and play well.
     
  37. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes the stats are inflationary because he can afford to be efficient and throw only 15 passes with the number 1 rushing offense and number 1 defense in the league.

    Henne would have performed worse in his rookie year with the number 1 defense and the number 1 offense? You're seriously reaching here.

    When you judge who is the better QB you judge the results on the field when the bullets are flying. Besides, Sanchez was a rookie who had the entire off season to develop with his offense while Henne didn't. What makes Sanchez better because he was a rookie?

    What does TEAM success got to do with whether one QB is better than the other?

    First of all comparing play off performance is like comparing apples and oranges right now because the Dolphins didn't make the playoffs. It's like saying McNabb is better than Marino because McNabb has more playoff wins and during the playoffs McNabbs QB rating is 80.0 and Marino's was 77.1. If you only focus on playoffs you miss the big picture.

    An objective stat is this, against 9 common opponents they started against in 2009, Henne's QB rating was an average of 71.8 while Sanchez was 63.3.
     
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  38. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral Staff Member

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    I didn't read the thread... but as I tell my wife, it's not where you start, but where you finish... :shifty:
     
  39. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf Senior Member

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    :lol:

    [​IMG]
     
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  40. LandShark13

    LandShark13 New Member

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    I haven't see this posted yet but here is a Podcast where Tim speaks on Henne Vs Sanchez. The AFC east coverage starts about at the 17 minute mark. He seems to favor Henne as does the person conducting the interview. So who knows.....

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/player?id=5168331
     

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