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Timmons the key to success?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Finster, May 13, 2017.

  1. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    In this early projection, I'm seeing a tough row to hoe with the schedule and being honest about last year, we had a lot of close victories vs bad/avg teams and lost to good teams.

    A lot of things will have to sort themselves out in TC, but thinking about how to get back into the playoffs I get to Timmons being the biggest possible X factor, and this entire idea rests on him excelling at MLB.

    In a nutshell, if Timmons plays at a probowl level we have a chance at the playoffs imo, in this D a very good MLB can change a lot, in fact it's my belief that to run this D effectively you actually need a very good MLB.

    A good MLB makes it difficult to run between the T's, makes it difficult to complete passes across the middle and adds some passrush, 3 weaknesses of ours, 2 of which have been alarming problems.

    The thing is, Timmons does(or at least did) possess the abilities to be this guy, he's been in the league for a decade but is just 31, he's also probably playing with a little chip on his shoulder, no one likes being the "odd man out" on a team you played your entire career with.

    Stopping teams is the next step to the playoffs imo, if Timmons can shore up the run D and clamp down on the stupid underneath dink and dunk killers, that changes the whole game.

    So do you think Timmons can be the key to the playoffs next year?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    If he pairs up as well with Alonso as he paired up with Shazier, then yeah. We'll see though.. new coach/scheme/teammates, etc..

    It's hard to overstate how important this FA move was though. If those two pair up well, our LB unit is no longer a weakness and this FO will have to be given a ton of credit for fixing the biggest problem on the team last year.
     
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  3. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Not sure if it's just Timmons, but from what I have read of the wide 9, it puts more stress on the MLB to do a LOT and do it WELL. So that's probably Timmons, yes. Could be Raekwon, depending on how things go.
     
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I look forward to studying his game.. don't know enough about the guy for some reason
     
  5. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I watch a lot of Steelers games because my brother is a fan, Timmons does everything well, some things better but he can do anything you ask in a 3-4 system, he's played at a probowl level at both ILB and OLB his entire career and I think he could play any NFL LB position to be honest.

    MLB is the most mentally challenging LB position, you have a lot on your plate, and back when half the league ran 3-4's there were 3-4 ILB's switching to MLB a lot more frequently, with mixed results, 3-4 ILB and 4-3 MLB are similar, but not the same positions.

    I don't doubt his ability to be able to play MLB, but he has to prove it, and here's a highlight video if you want.

     
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  6. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I wonder how much Timmons will actually play in the middle that much this year given that we have Raekwon in the fold. The reason I say this is having the backers we have now we can allow both Timmons and Alonso to play the wide areas. Timmons will use his knowledge and intelligence to likely man the strong side while Alonso is a serious candidate for the weak side given his speed and athleticism.

    Raekwon is more likely the lynchpin of the backers as any faults he has with manning that position will expose the unit and only increase pressure on the others to make plays.

    To me Raekwon has a great deal of pressure on him to perform and to perform immediately.

    Also as most ILB in a 3-4 defense were originally OLB's in a 4-3 the transition should not be all that difficult for Timmons although the first two weeks I expect him to take a few poor angles until he gets some decent reps there.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  7. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO great defense is the product of having 11 players do their job. The MLB often plays a large role in communicating those jobs. I see that as his biggest impact. Obviously, part of doing your job is tackling and filling holes and he does that well. I don't believe that Kiko did that as poorly as many here claimed. The MLB often has to pick a hole and fill it. The back then reacts and goes to a different hole and another defender is supposed to plug that gap. Posters would claim he filled the wrong hole when he didn't. His job was to pick one and make the back react. I saw most of our gashes as a problem created by the other LBs and Ss. IMO we got pretty consistent poor play from our second or third LBs and from our second S.

    So Timmons will be invaluable for his ability to help others do their jobs better. Kwon will hopefully develop into that role, but I don't expect that to be his role early in the season and maybe not until next year. The biggest impact though will come from having more consistency among our starters and better depth.
     
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  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    heres some longer ones....real good stuff



    I sure as hell haven't seen linebacker play like that from a guy in a dolphin uniform in a long time..

     
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
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  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the defense is dying for a mike with great leadership qualities..and he has them.
     
  10. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The goal isn't for Timmons to crush the run. The goal is for Timmons to slow down the run enough so that the pass defense can get better. There's a big difference between defending 3rd and 3 and 3rd and 5. If he can convert say half a dozen plays a game from 3rd down and X into 3rd and X + 2 or 3 then he will have earned his keep even if his personal stats aren't stellar.

    I'll agree totally with Rafael about the biggext problem with the D ladt year was that we only had 3 players who could read the right hole to flow to - Alonso, Jomes and Misi, and Misi was athletically limited even before his injury so he sometimes didn't get to the right place in time. Then when Jones went down Alonso was trying to cover 2 or 3 rushing lanes by himself. If Raekwon works out and we have 3 LBs who flow to the right lane consistently I see this defense getting a lot better.
     
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    me like nasty boy.
     
  12. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    At the NFL level you definitely expect more from a MLB than just filling a hole, you want him picking the right hole nearly all the time, which is pretty much the hallmark trait of a very good MLB. You don't need to be a tremendous physical specimen, there are a lot of great, physically challenged(so to speak) MLBs, too slow, too short, too small, too tall etc, the one thing they all have in common is always choosing the right spot.

    The Dolphins in particular, have a rich history of less than stellar athletes being great MLBs, all the way back to Nick Buoniconti, who was about the exact same size as Landry, John Offerdahl, who they are still waiting for to finish his 40, slow, but always in the right place, and of course Zach, too short, too slow, too small = greatest MLB in Dolphins history, why, because he always was in the right place.

    The MLB has the most responsibilities of all the players on D, primary runstopper and responsible for the most tangled area as far as route coverage, and has to know everyones job on top of that, they've got to be patient in coverage, but also aggressive attacking the LOS, while understanding last second adjustments, which is why they get called QB's of the defense, it's a lot on your plate.

    This D in particular puts more pressure on the MLB because of the W9 alignment, so high level play can effect the D overall from the MLB position, as a poster mentioned earlier, "turning 3rd and 3's into 3rd and 5's" ends up being huge over the course of a game, as well as keeping a lid on coverage across the middle, we have been killed up the middle, runs and passes.

    There's a reason that they said, soon after the season ended, that they were moving him out of MLB, he didn't play the position that well, too much to think about imo, he was reacting and indecisive, waited for runs to come to him a lot and got mixed up in coverages too much and just plain isn't that stout, he should be better at WLB.

    If Timmons can play at a probowl level it would have a huge impact on the overall D, imo.
     
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  13. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    If nothing else he is already the best TACKLER on the team. Watching that film when he gets to the ball it goes down. Clean sure tackles, no trying to light people up and showboat. Tackling! I'm very very excited to see that. If we get 80% our LB corp just got 125% better.
     
  14. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    I was very excited when we signed him too. I hope it all works out as well as you explained.
     
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  15. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    Well, I certainly don't see him being the key to failure. I have a lot of friends who are Steelers fans. They all tell me that Timmons has two solid years of production left from what they were seeing. So fingers crossed.
     
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  16. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    With a good back there is no "right hole". A patient back will wait for the MLB to commit (if he doesn't then he'll be blocked anyways) and then pick another hole. That's why a good defense relies on everybody doing their job. If you expect one player to fix a defense despite everybody else not doing their job, you will be disappointed.
     
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  17. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Well, you're twisting the point a bit, first off, I could say the exact opposite, a good MLB will wait for the RB to commit, or better yet, get behind the LOS and ruin the play before it gets started and the longer the MLB is shadowing the RB and the RB has to keep switching holes the more defenders get there.

    So while what you said is true at times, he can't wait forever either, so the better the MLB the better your chances of containing that RB, because there is always the right spot to be in, RBs cannot simply sit behind a line a wait for a hole to open, they have to cross the LOS somewhere, and somewhere is possible to get to.

    Secondly, we don't play good RBs every week, but the real point is we have to stop ordinary RBs, we have to learn to crawl before we can walk.

    As far as playing vs good players, it doesn't matter the position, they will get theirs, that's why they're good players, but even Le'veon Bell doesn't ALWAYS have an option.

    Lastly, of course everyone has to do their job, since this is a constant, I don't know why it needs to be mentioned, but if you take an avg group of guys on offense and add a very good QB, he makes a huge impact on the offense because he's playing the most important position on offense, same goes for MLB, to a lesser extent than QB, but the same principle exists, most important position on the D.
     
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  18. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I was excited by this signing. I really like the way he plays and hits. He will make the defense better for sure.
     
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  19. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I actually think that we are discussing the wrong LB in this forum. I think our key to success is McMillan. If he is a solid starter, we have a nice little unit with Kiko and Timmons. I am a little concerned that essentially all we have coming off the bench is really Misi. I'd really love to grab a vet during the final cuts of the preseason.

    But here is why I think that the key to success is McMillan. Suppose he does pan out and crack the starting lineup? Our starting unit would be Misi, Timmons, and Kiko. But more concerning, our backup would be a guy who couldn't beat out Misi for a starting job. If this is the case, I think we are in trouble.

    I don't hate Misi as much as a lot of people do on this board. I tend to think that he is a decent backup player who could start if needed. I think we still need to get deeper at this position.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    let the kid {kwon} play..and live with any consequences...
     
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  21. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Misi's problem is more health than ability, so we're not in trouble if Misi starts, it's how far is the drop off when/if he gets injured, if Timmons does play at a high level, Misi will be fine at SLB, I half expect to see that to start the season to be honest, unless McMillen is a fast learner.

    People overlook guys like Misi because he isn't a splash player, but he is a smart player that doesn't make mental mistakes, guys like McMillen can learn a lot from Misi.

    When Misi does get injured McMillen will get the nod, unless he pulls a Zach in TC, then even better.
     
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  22. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I just want to mention that as a former running back I loved a linebacker that was too aggressive. We are taught to press the hole to make that backer engage and then we are able to make a cut off of that. Myself personally I used to love going behind the backers momentum, as such even if he got to me his power was mitigated as he now had to move back across his momentum rather than continuing with it.

    If I haven't explained it right for others to understand examine what's called a "belly" play. That play tortures overly aggressive backers as there is a natural cut back Lane created by the backing scheme. So if the backers over pursue and try to get to the hole too quickly a back simply bounces the play back one hole and they are gone.

    To put it another way backs are taught to be patient to the hole and quick through it. Sometimes we just have to take what is there and live with it, but he reason we do is to set your *** up for that cut back/bounce run where we gash your *** for massive gains.

    A good line backing corp will have backers hitting holes forcing us to do something while the other backers hit the natural lanes created in blocking schemes and therefor bottling us up.

    If they are not aggressive together for instance a zone blocking scheme will destroy you. Again press the hole, make them commit and attack off of it.

    So basically I'm with Rafael on this one. Kiko was fine, he just needed someone we with a pulse to get through a damn hole WITH him. Not the same hole obviously but in unison. Often times that didn't happen; allowing big gains. The reason they want him out of the middle is that they want his athleticism on receivers and covering space and using his aggressive downhill nature to force plays back inside to where we have a solid tackler in the middle: as this scheme dictates.

    And wouldn't you know we just drafted a sure tackler in Raekwon. We have put players in the right places to be scheme fits with this draft and FA. I can't wait for the results to show up.
     
  23. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    The thing is that the Fins themselves didn't think Kiko was fine there, this isn't just my opinion, they removed him from MLB before we signed Timmons.

    There is also a reason 4-3 MLBs lead the team in tackles, they are the primary runstoppers, it's not an equal job among LBs, basically everyone else takes a body while the MLB cleans up on runs between the tackles, 4-3 OLBs rarely get near 100 tackles, while 100 tackles for a MLB is on the low side, often times the MLB has more tackles than both OLBs combined.
     
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  24. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I didn't say Kiko was fine in the middle. I said he was fine, as in he is not the issue. Not that they wouldn't want him in the middle given his skillset as I alluded to in my post. The problem we had was the other backers in the unit.

    Also I didn't say is was equal job; but go ahead. I think you have clearly misunderstood what I've said. In the nicest way I can, may I suggest you re read what I said. You might find some of your points have been covered.
     
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  25. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The reports I have read said the defensive coaches wanted to move Kiko outside last year, but but they decided Kiko in the middle and scrubs outside was better than Kiko outside and scrubs inside.

    The coaches have also commented they envision a plan where we have 3 LBs, not a MLB, SLB and WLB, so the players can be pushed to wher they are most needed, and not have a situarion like we had last year where the defense was handcuffed because of the inability to switch players around.
     
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  26. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I think thats a simple case of coach speak, idyllically yeah, if you can have 3 guys that can play MLB, but reality is different, as in their moving of Kiko to WLB prior to signing anyone, if there are "no WLB, MLB and SLB" what would be the point of that?

    The LB spots are very defined, Kiko WLB, Timmons MLB and Misi/McMillen SLB, and hopefully McMillen may be able to play MLB some day.
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    When did people create a new definition for coach speak? When did it become, "coaches lying?"

    The point of that would be where they can be most needed and not have to play predefined roles. To give them more flexibility in packages.

    You do not even need the concept of WLB or SLB, you can have left side linebacker and right side linebacker. Plus in today's NFL where nickel is most of the time, the roles are less defined than ever.
     
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  28. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Well "coach speak" = "empty words", and as I said in an that comment, of course he'd like that, what team wouldn't, but the players need all those skill sets, the players you have dictate that.

    The thing is, right and left are just names to replace weak and strong, or will and sam, but there still is a strong side a lot of the time, a weakside almost all the time, which is dictated by the O, the SLB is literally stronger, his job is to take on the blocking TE, the WLB is faster, or at least a better passrusher, when the time arrives you want him blitzing, from the weakside.

    Like I was saying, the players you have dictate what positions they can play with their given skill sets, and the case in point I already mentioned where Kiko was moved to WLB right after the end of the season, before having an answer at MLB.

    If these positions were so interchangeable why would they need to do that?
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is not true. Left and right are names that describe what side of the defense they line up. They are not strong or weak. They are on the strong or weak side depending on the offense and that might change their assignment.

    The rest is only true if you have a strong lb and a weak lb. If you have interchangeable Lbs then it doesn't really matter their size. This isn't Madden.

    To answer your second bold, not all teams play the same with the same terminology. This isn't Madden. It all depends on the defense that is being run and how the defensive coordinator runs the defense.
     
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  30. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Well, the thing is that the D doesn't dictate strong or weak, the offense does, the side with the TE is the strong side, and once they realize that Kiko is staying in when they move the TE over that way, they will run the ball that way a lot.

    What a poor use of Kiko's skillset, and what a poor use of Misi/Kwon's skillset, that is forcing square pegs in round holes, saying that you want interchangeable LBs doesn't make Kiko any stouter, or Misi any faster or Kwon any less a rookie, so obviously they aren't interchangeable.

    This is leaving out the MLB job, which is different, again, dictated by the O, you NEED a certain type of zone coverage ability to play MLB. A zone that gets attacked by multiple targets on nearly every passing down, when 3 WRs come into your zone you can't "figure out" which guy you aught to take, you have to know.

    Not everyone has that skill, you also get a ton of runs your way, a lot of run plays are between the Ts, Kiko was making too many tackles 5 yds downfield and made a lot of mistakes in coverage, the Dolphins moved him from MLB, so we know he's not interchangeable with Timmons.

    The LBs all are good skillset fits for their positions, Kiko at WLB, Timmons at MLB and Misi/Kwon at SLB, these players are all traditional physical fits for those positions, I doubt that's a coincidence.

    Look, that is the apex design, interchangeable LBs, that would be beautiful, but you can count the times it's happened on one hand, that's 3 dynamic LB's that all have the strength vs the run, speed to rush the passer and coverage ability to hold the middle of the field, 3 Luke Keuchlys?

    This is what I mean by this being "coach speak", look at the players we have, they aren't interchangeable, last year they said the same thing about having 2 interchangeable S's, but they ran SS and FS, because it would be a waste of Jones' talent to do that, he's possibly the best SS in the league, complete with intimidation factor.
     
  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Don't we think to get the three best players on the field that Raekwon has to start at middle?

    Shouldn't we allow the rookie to play where he's most comfortable and let the vet Timmons go to the outside.

    To argue with myself on that is the fact that Timmons is gonna be better in coverage responsibilities coming from the mike..he's good in coverage and knows how to play the zone game..
     
  32. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking if the coaches didn't like Kiko at MLB, but they thought he was better there then the other scrubs so they left him there, then the MLB is the most important position.

    As far as a rookie playing MLB, I sure hope this kid is the next Zack.
     
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  33. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    I would lean toward your second argument, but it's juts my opinion. Probably depends on the positions and the players in question. I would really have to be sure my young MLB really understood everything about the scheme we were running.
     
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  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    don't you live with some consequences to get the best talent on the field?, cause you know there're are some strengths of the player that if not in the starting lineup are missing.

    all rookies make mistakes but there are other positive dynamics that can affect the team positively..
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  35. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I think there's a couple of things to take into consideration, the 8 mil per we're paying Timmons to be the MLB, and the fact that Kwon isn't a lock to play MLB at the NFL level, and Gase is still playing for his job.

    I think the last one is the most important, Gase does not yet have the job security to take better players out of position to get reps for a rookie and the next one ties right into it, which is the fact that there's no guarantee that Kwon is a MLB at the NFL level, his college tape shows he's not ready yet to play MLB at the NFL level and at the end of the day he may be a SLB at this level.

    Truth be told, he may not start at the beginning of the season at SLB, at the moment Misi is still probably better than Kwon, but I feel that Timmons, Kiko and Misi/Kwon can at the least be a solid LB unit with the possibility of being a very good unit.
     
  36. Gaijin

    Gaijin Member

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    In contemporary football old distinctions between linebackers tend to blur, especially when we talk about 4-3 LB. Last season we had a situation where Joseph tried to get people to fill precise roles and he said at the start of OTA or training camp that Alonso was mike for now but that was in pencil. They tried to find solutions but he was the best for the job and he did play well. Now Burke has a little different vision, apparently, he said that in his defense they are 3 LB and they will play different techniques in different situations. There was also a focus on selecting people with high football IQ who can thrive playing in different spots depending on the situation. McMillan is a 21 yo defensive captain at OSU and looks like he is a bright kid, Timmons has an history that speaks for him, Alonso is a smart player with good instinct. They will play according to the situations, a lot of the times with multiple packages and looks and formations it's tough to be successful if you are rigid. In nickel packages when you play mostly 2 LB they should be interchangeable as much as they can. Personally I have a very good feeling about the abilities of this group, especially McMillan, and the possibility they make an impact right away.
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    get the three best players on the field..and live with the consequences.
     
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  38. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I totally agree, it's just that Kwon may not be one of them at the moment, we'll have to see how TC plays out.
     
  39. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In an age of people posting from mobile devices, and goofy spell checking, I think you're being a bit unreasonable here. Clearly D25(and likely everyone here for that matter) knows who Zach Thomas is. Maybe a device, or a rogue spell check changed the spelling, or maybe it's a simple mistake. Lighten up! :up:
     
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  40. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's how I feel. Even if that means going into camp, and preseason and coming out with a starting 3 LB unit of Timmons, Alonso and Misi in some order if McMillan still needs some work. I'm fine with that. First and foremost, lets win games, lets put the best guys onto the field, whoever they may be, FA, or drafted rookie, or even undrafted rookie. McMillan is the future at some point, we all know that, but if it's not week one that's OK to me, although I think it will be week 1.
     

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