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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by bbqpitlover, Oct 16, 2019.
To add to that, Brandon Marshall was a month or so before Tannehill was drafted.
That and Mike Wallace weren't on the team.
I think there's a few issues with fans and their interperations.
1. There's just uninformed fans.
2. There's fans who only care enough to blame the first thing they see or the top man, whether that's the QB on the field, the coach, the GM or the owner, simply because of the ladder of power of a given group/entity/unit.
3. Sometimes fans understand the issues, but don't articulate them too everyone else clearly or in ways the listener with understand.
4. Some fans are either all tape or all stats.
I am going to do my best to not be 3 while fully admitting I may be 1.
The difference between meh teams and good to great teams is often the bottom part of the roster. Teams that are already up there, can afford to build the roster for injuries. We were never that good, because we were still building our starters. Part of that reason is that we switched coaches and /or shot callers pretty regularly. Every new coach or gm or czar, had different ideas about what talent they wanted and how to acquire that talent. We were in a constant state of flux, where pieces for a scheme had to fit into another scheme, etc. So we never really had the personnel to overcome serious injuries. Good teams have next man up, we have next UFA rookie up. So while the number of injuries we had weren't a statistically differently large number, we were less equipped to deal with them, which hurt us more. Conveying that in the forum, often runs into a #3 ^ problem.
Our online was terrible and mostly because the scheme/regime changes we went through. Everyone has a different idea of what an oline should be and too often, we had a line mashed with bad fits for the scheme with a holdover or two. That generally brings with it journeymen the particular coach/GM/czar felt more comfortable with. So the good or decent pieces you had, had to mesh with newcomer veterans the caches were using as in room TAs. No line will ever gel under those circumstances. The fan takes on this often fall into #1^ and/or #2^.
Tannehill does not have elite level pocket awareness. He likely doesn't posses that almost 6th sense of feeling the pass rush. That in and of itself, does not mean he's a terrible QB. It does however, mean he needs help. When you have less than great pocket awareness and craptacular line, you need to rely on coaching/scheme. He rarely got help before 2016 in that department. People see he doesn't have the best awareness and see him get decimated by the pass rush and pull a 2 from above^ and just jump to the conclusion, its all Thill's fault. They ignore or are completely ignorant of the fact that dealing with the pass rush is not all on the QB. Sure, there are guys like Russell Wilson, who essentially can deal with the rush all on their own, but if you don't have that kind of guy you don't just throw your hands up in the air and feed him to the wolves, like our coaches did. The only difference in Thill in Tenn versus here is his surroundings, which includes coaching. Helping your QB does not mean elite coaching or perfect circumstances....it is literally the base minimum of what a staff should do.
This stuff is the problem with stats. They are effectively useless on their own in a game this complex. You look at the injuries and you compare the amounts of injured players at important positions and determine, Miami didn't have it harder injury wise.....but they did because of stuff discussed above. The stats aren't accounting for that. Things are too interconnected in football to use stats alone to find causes or even to fully identify problems. Yeah, maybe Thill didn't; have a more significant amount of jailbreak rushes then anyone else, but when you factor in his flaws and that of the staff, we likely had a much harder time than many other QBs because he's being saddled with more roadblocks to success. We can say all day, that the stats dictate what's happening with Thill right now isn't likely. It may be true, it isn't likely...but that doesn't negate the fact it is actually happening. That's a #4.
Can't roll with ya on that one...aside from 2 games, Ajayi scared nobody. His droughts between the 200 yarders were pretty bad.
It wasn't about how effective Jay was, it was about how the team committed to the run.
Our line was terrible at pass blocking and Thill didn't have the best pocket awareness. So what did our coaches do? Always threw the ball.
And you can see it plain as day when you watch him with the Titans. When they play-action fake, you see at least 4 opponents' players surge toward the line of scrimmage. They recover quickly, but that's still about 1.5 seconds they lost, giving the weapons time to find the soft spots and Tannehill time to identify his spots. Unless you're running a pure 2-minute offense / playing from WAY behind, under-center play-action is money...and Tannehill is one of THE best in play-action passing. This isn't a revelation, he's always been good at play-action passing.
Wouldn’t that focal point be the same with Marcus mariota? Unless I’m mistaken Derrick Henry’s production was in the tank prior to tannehill taking the reigns.
You don’t have to have a lot of success though to dictate to the opposition in terms of the way they play you.
there was an awful lot of 8 man boxes during that ajayi run.
good QBs make you pay for that assuming they have the protection to allow them to. And with Miami the protection side of things has pretty much always been suspect.
So what’s being illustrated above, if it’s true, is Tannehill’s need for both the running game and the offensive line to function at a certain level for him to perform well.
This is precisely why we need time to determine whether that sort of functioning in his surroundings can be sustained or replicated sufficiently to make him perform that way consistently.
If he’s dependent on things that are relatively easily sustainable or replicable in the NFL, then obviously he’ll continue to perform well. If on the other hand he needs the stars to align, then probably not.
If thats the case than I guess he is still a pretty damn good player. Theres not alot of QBs in the league that can operate cleanly without those two. I'd probably say Watson is one of the few that can do it. (Using him as an example since his a rival against Titans)... but even Watson will break down eventually, wether thats taking dumb hits rolling outside the pocket or the overpaid dummy Tunsil missing his assignments.
Either “That guy” disappeared or blocked me. Is he still posting?
*Edit* I can’t see any of his older posts so he must have blocked me. Weak!
What you’re proposing there is actually a good area of study. What kinds of surroundings have the best quarterbacks in the league experienced?
That is a good question.
I think ultimately its doomed though. There will be similarities of course. I'd assume solid coaching and a solid team for example, but I'd assume that due to each QB having his own strengths and weaknesses that the exact makeup of the team will be incredibly different.
Though I think if you split it between "Pocket" and "Mobile" QB youd find more consistency.
Or, at least, to have the OL not completely suck. PA passing works even if the running game is not going well. It doesn't work if:
1. You are in bad down and distance.
2. You are behind in the game.
3. Try it from the shotgun formation.
4. Your OL (especially up the middle) allows quick pressure while the QB turns his back to execute the fake.
5. Throw mostly short passes off of the PA fake.
Sound like any team we know?
Ahh man, Mike Wallace would’ve signed another 4 year mega deal if would’ve had THIS Ryan Tannehill!!
I can’t disagree with objective information that the Dolphins were subpar in those areas during Tannehill’s tenure, but if you pan back a bit from what you’re saying there, see if you agree (or not) that what you’re specifying is in essence a list of ingredients that enable a quarterback to get by on arm talent alone.
In other words, the rest of the offense has to function in such a way that the quarterback can play his position with only his arm talent (and of course a well-executed fake handoff) and not have to play the entirety of the position.
Now, if that’s true, that isn’t problematic if the surroundings necessary to pull that off are sustainable or replicable in the NFL, but if they aren’t, then obviously there will be difficulty in sustaining that quarterback’s performance at that level.
That’s because the defenses were stacking and the box after he went bananas.
The fronts our offense was seeing post JA breakout and after we’re different.
Nothing to be ashamed of, most Qbs need a strong run game or a strong threat of a running game to help them thrive.
It’s all intertwined.
What the hell fella’s!!?
Henry has obviously been the focal point of that offense for two years no matter who the QB is!!
You don’t have to convince me in some roundabout way that Ryan Tannehill is better than Mariota, I already know this.
Is it fair to weight his 1/3 a game against Denver as an equal weighted game? I would assume for clarity you would throw out a game that would be highly susceptible to heavy high or low swings based on simple game mechanics. If a QB comes off the bench and throws a TD pass and that is his only play I wouldn't want to use his perfect passer rating in any real analysis.
But outside of that, if you are correct then there is no way Tannehill could have had any positive significant statistical difference in that time frame. Cause he is putting up a stretch of games that borders historically good. So what is the point of looking at a statistical model that by default can't show you anything(or at least can't show you anything positive)? You are setting up a scenario where Tannehill can ONLY be statistically the same as always or worse.
1. Even with heavy play action passing teams, it makes up less than 30% of the passing plays.
2. Every QB benefits from better down and distance, playing with the lead, adequate pass blocking, etc.
3. There is no reason why any team can't play more from under center
Not really sure what you are talking about with "not having to play the entirety of the position". There are a pretty limited number of things a QB can do on a given play:
1. Hand off
2. Run (by design)
3. Throw from the pocket
4. Throw on the run (by design)
5. Throw while scrambling or out of the pocket (avoiding pressure)
6. Throw it away.
7. Take a sack.
8. Run while scrambling.
3 - 8 can be done from PA or not and can be done from under center or shotgun. Emphasizing PA passing does not mean the QB is not playing the entirety of the position.
But this isn't a team that was tailor made for Tannehill. You can say that he has some similarity to Marriota, but nobody on the Titans team this offseason was trying to make a miracle team around their backup QB. He is good enough to be plug in play with a team that was designed to compete, that's about all you can claim with your approach of analysis.
I still think his play puts him well above this level.
I think in terms of the way defensive coordinators play/gameplan vs the titans Henry is the focal point.
but the titans can do a ton more things at the qb position with tannehill to help keeps teams off balance than they could mariota which was by and large pistol and spread concepts. Even the pa came off of it.
In terms of truly stacked boxes 2017 under jay cutler that was the theme. Safeties within 10 yards of the los and Ajayi running into brick walls. That’s when Ajayi started bouncing it and not hitting the play call designed gap and gase got pissed.
kinda hard to blame him considering the qb couldn’t make defenses pay for all those stacked boxes. Jay cutler had mailed in taking any contact to make a play in the passing game. That was very obvious and so was it that dcs didn’t respect his ability to make plays anymore. Again cause they probably sniffed out on tape his lack of willingness to let things develop and if need be take contact.
Another Tannemyth busted.....
Brees throughout his career in NO had had a good running game & offensive linemen. Rodgers has had a pretty decent running game although not like Brees, but Rodgers has had future HoF oline protecting him throughout his career.
Two years? He turned it on late last year. He's stats were bulked out due to some of the long runs as well. But its clear as day that Henry is running much better with Tanny under center.
He was pretty good last year also.
Henry is a guy who gets better as the game goes on and the more carries he gets, they are such a better team they have been playing with the lead with RT, and that allows D Henry to PUNISH.
Playing healthy has to help.
Three Tannemyths busted actually...
1. Can't handle pressure.
2. The Dolphins were pressured more than other teams.
3. Tennessee has an above average line.
So does not facing pressure from 4 rushers in less than 2.5 seconds on 3rd and long while in max protect......
A little bit of info that may help explain Tannehill's success this season with YAC. This is an article from last season but I don't think anybody believes that Tannehill was better last year than this year.
Simply put, Tannehill is and has been for quite some time a DAMN ACCURATE thrower of the football. He has ELITE arm talent.
The play calling and supporting cast has put him in good situations far more often this year than at any point during his time in Miami.
I’m sure the titans know they need to make resigning Derek Henry a priority to pair with tannehill.
but in the event he prices himself out of Tennessee they need to pivot to a Najee harris type in the draft. Something downhill with bad intentions.
If his OL was such an issue and the reason he struggled in Miami, but he handles pressure well then what was the problem??
Type of pressure (ie, blitz or no blitz, number of rushers, number of blockers), down and distance, and scoreboard.
But maybe he was just checking down.... uh, no....
He has always been good under pressure, where he was below average was when he wasn’t.
Strange stat, curious why that is.
That was his best season before the injuries where we all thought he had turned the corner.
I'd be more interested in other years statistics. I already know he played well overall that season.
What’s this wasn’t allowed to audible for 1.5 years stuff? He wasn’t allowed to audible the whole time lazor was here. We ran that chip kelly Philly based offense lazor brought with him although we ran it without even the Philly tempo. Which was clown shoes.
he could change the play side based mainly on the safety location pre snap but that was it.
once lazor got canned that last quarter of the season I guess it was they started bits and pieces letting him check into different things at the los but it was minimal and few and far between.
I know cause I’m the one who let the cat out of the bag on tape study well before the Miami media got a sniff about how he wasn’t allowed to audible at the los. On another forum albeit.