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Titans to start Ryan Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by bbqpitlover, Oct 16, 2019.

  1. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Yes, Lazor wouldn’t give him full permission to audible. I agree that’s not how you treat a franchise QB.

    Gase however didn’t do that.
     
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  2. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    We used to boot by design even into unaccounted for edge defenders with free releases on repeat. Lol

    Mario Williams got paid by Miami because of this even.

    Tanny would be at the line looking right at that free release at the los edge defender knowing he was screwed before the play even started and he couldn’t do a damn thing about it.

    couldn’t check out.
     
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  3. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Who was the Philly qb under chip kelly during the tempo based offense? Whoever that was (I feel like it was nick foles) had zero ability to check out. But again at least they ran it with tempo. Tempo the league caught up to concepts wise within a year but tempo none the less. I know mark Sanchez trash rear end was there too for a bit of it. And it makes sense to not allow that clown to audible.
     
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  4. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Benched for who? Matt moore?

    lol

    that was utter fabricated nonsense
     
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  5. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent Well-Known Member

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    Half of his stats last year came with 4 5 late season games. Just sayin. Henry struggled earlier on until he went and had a "good talk" with Eddie George as he says, after that it seemed as he switched it to a different level.
     
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  6. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    He hasn't always been good under pressure. There have been times where the numbers were very bad. He also hasn't always been bad in a clean pocket. Again, from 2016:
    upload_2019-12-12_12-47-33.png
    I think it all adds up to - if you can keep pressure off of Tannehill OR at least make the other team blitz to create pressure, Tannehill thrives.
     
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  7. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent Well-Known Member

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    In your opinion how much is a reasonable time in the pockett in the NFL?
     
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  8. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Why? Especially given how well he is playing this season. What difference does it make how he did in 2013 while getting sacked 58 times?
     
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  9. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Usually 2.5 seconds is the number used. But, again it depends on how the pressure is generated, down and distance, etc.
     
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  10. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Yeah probably more if you can get there with 3 or 4 and play sticks concepts behind it on long downs and distances he’s gonna struggle.

    just like just about any pocket progression qb would.

    I do recall a year or so there where we didn’t even have hots. Lol maybe that was lazor too I can’t remember. But no built in hots but thats show blitz based stuff
     
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  11. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Take it up with Adam Gase.

    Wasn't my decision. He was horrible at the beginning however, I understand why but the point remains.
     
  12. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Horrible at the beginning of what season? In 2016 the first 5 weeks gase scoffed at the media notion of benching him.

    Once he got hurt matt moore showed gase those last however many games even that he couldn’t be trusted coverage Id wise with anything other than motion based coverage ids.
     
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  13. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Because an accumulation of data is always better than one season to begin with.

    Secondly, if he was sacked 58 times that implies more pressure or if not, not dealing with it as well.

    You should never base an entire opinion of a player on one year. Especially if everyone knows it was his best.

    I could probably make Andy Dalton a borderline HOF QB if I just looked at his best year.

    FWIW I believe Tannehill has turned a corner and become more consistent within his new offense. I'm not downing him, I'm saying I wont base his entire tenure in Miami off one season that happened to be his best.
     
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  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    We aren't basing it on one year. We are basing it on the situation that surrounds him.

    Some of us have looked at his body of work, saw when he's been his best in spurts and in 2016 before he was injured and determined he needed certain things to play at this level. He's getting those things now and he's playing better. That's why we're taking a victory lap.
     
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  15. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    No you're misunderstanding me some.

    That is my opinion too for the most part. I was one of the first people here to bring up how he is playing the way he was pre injury.

    What I'm saying is I'm not basing his ability to handle pressure off one season. In either direction. I dont like the idea of highlighting one season for any intangible for any player.

    I believe he always had it in him in spurts, but I also believe walking into another locker room, feeling the sting of not being the man anymore, I really believe it lit something inside him that is bringing this consistency.

    Maybe he had that same spark in 2016, but I know I never saw the same QB after his injuries here in Miami.
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Oh, FTR, I don't think he is handling pressure better. I think on a scale of handling pressure where a 10 is Russell Wilson and a 1 is John Beck, Thill is and has always been a 4.5. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the team he's on has given him tools to combat the pressure, like being allowed to audible and committing to the run. This is why I've asked many stat guys, including Shouright (TheGuy), what are the ways a team/QB can counter the pass rush. They never answer, btw.

    So again, thill hasn't really improved, his situation has.
     
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  17. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent Well-Known Member

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    Andy Dalton, 2015 Blake Bortles, maybe even Nick Foles are a product of QBs that bulk up bunch of stats in garbage time. Especially the 2015 Blake Bortles is a great example.
     
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  18. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I added on a little to my post after you quoted, I do agree hes mostly the same QB, but the one from 2016. Afterwards I didnt see the same guy, and I'm talking eye test not any statistics.

    His pocket presence hasn't improved, but his ability and trust in his mobility when he does feel it seems to be back to pre-injury level.
     
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  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Well, 2017 he didn't play because of injury and 2018 he wasn't 100% and the whole team was in disarray due to Gase.
     
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  20. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    Here again is the accumulation of data you're talking about:

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2017/quarterbacks-and-pressure-2016

    About halfway down the page there is a table that shows that, for the five seasons from 2012 to 2016: 1) the rate of pressure Tannehill experienced was not significantly different than for the average QB listed there, 2) Tannehill's DVOA z-score while under pressure was -2.24 in relation to the other QBs listed, and 3) Tannehill's DVOA z-score while not under pressure was -0.55.

    So what that means is that between 2012 and 2016, he was much worse than the average QB listed there at performing under pressure, and slightly worse than the average QB listed there at performing not under pressure.
     
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  21. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    His tenure in Miami is irrelevant. Even still, he was also very good in 2014 and 2015 when he had Albert, Pouncey, and James playing the whole game. He was 6-1 and above a 100 passer rating when that happened. So, now we have 7 games from 2014-2015, 8 games from 2016, mostly solid play in 2018 (until the last three games, so 8 games), and 7 games from 2019.

    I'm pretty comfortable with my assessment of Tannehill based on all of those games.
     
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  22. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I took out 2017 because I realized after I posted I didnt even see him LOL
     
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  23. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    See but that's the thing here again: as soon as we determine that he plays better "if and when" there is some certain thing occurring in his surroundings (in this case the presence of three particular offensive linemen), we have to also consider the likelihood that those surrounding factors can be sustained or replicated. Obviously in that very season itself they weren't likely to be sustained.

    If you need three healthy first-round picks on the offensive line to perform adequately, then that may make you fundamentally different from QBs who do not.
     
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  24. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    He is a 10 at handling blitz pressure and a 5 at handling non-blitz pressure.
     
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  25. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    He needed pass protection or the options to deal with it when he didn't get it, just like every other QB in the league.
     
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  26. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I’m interested in hearing what the reasons were Ryan struggled for the first 5 weeks of the season in 2016.
     
  27. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    New offensive scheme, as bad as an interior OL in Dolphins history coupled with the same struggles he had always had.(Recognizing/pocket presence/slow processing)

    Not to mention a coach that obviously isn’t the messiah everyone thought he was before he was hired.

    Again, some things were his fault some were not.
     
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  28. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I seem to recall Gase talking about players not knowing their assignments.
     
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  29. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    exactly. We were trying to run a new no huddle based offense out the gate even which rushed to the los so tanny could assess the d pre snap and check out if need be with players around the qb he spent over half the time he should be reading the d getting into their correct alignment etc.

    big part of why the offense struggled.
     
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  30. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    2016... New offense but same ole stuff. Not knowing assignments was blamed on that, not Landry n Ajayi being focused on music contracts, recording labels, or clothing line interests.

    Dallas Thomas.
    Billy Turner.
    Jamal Douglas.
    Mike Pouncey.
    Brandon Albert.
    Juwuan James, who only ever played well when everyone else did.
    Parker being MIA...

    Memorable moments from 2016:
    - Stills dropping a 70 yard bomb TD in season opener that wouldve helped beat Seattle.
    - The dreaded dread heads messing the bed until Gase canned them and Douglas, all three.
    - Calais Campbell caving Tannehill's knee in on an illegal hit that wasnt flagged.

    Best thing Gase ever did in 2016 was get the dreaded dreadheads off the team.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2019
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  31. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Here’s the other thing about what we were trying to do those 5 weeks. They were coming set pre snap by design so that tanny if need to check out can move guys to different alignments. Well if you don’t line up correct he can never check out because it’s a penalty if you use motion for coverage ids and you try to check out. You can’t start and stop motion and check out. So pre set is a requirement.

    that was the advantage of rushing to the los. Get guys set in correct spots let tanny id the coverage or check out and move guys if need be.

    Instead it was spend 15 seconds of the play clock getting guys set correctly not have time to really Id the coverage and zero time to check out and snap the ball with zeroes on the play clock. And many times run a bad play into a bad defensive look.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It's 2.5 seconds maximum...elite players are getting the ball out in under 2.0. Tannehill has always been right there around the two second mark before releasing (AKA, tons of screen/slant passes), yet he leads the league in sacks for his era. That alone should tell us a good bit about his struggles.
     
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  33. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Your numbers are off.

    The QB with the fastest average time to throw last season was Roethlisberger at 2.38 seconds:
    upload_2019-12-12_14-21-30.png
    That is consistent with what I remember from past seasons.

    It is slightly slower this season.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw
     
  34. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Nothing to do with Ryan (so some don’t get their panties in a wad) but while these numbers are solid, we also have to take into consideration the types of offense X is running.

    Certainly a few OC run offenses designed to drop back and throw quick passes.

    The Pats OL has never really been all that great the past decade, they recognize it and used to get the ball out faster than most by design.

    Of course many other variables go into IF you are able to run an offense like that effectively.
     
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  35. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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  36. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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  37. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    So essentially EVERYONE but Ryan himself is to blame.

    It isn't taboo or off base to suggest the whole offense was playing badly, including the QB.
     
  38. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    To save some time and effort here are some old threads that discuss Lazor’s playcalling and how it effected Tannehill’s performance under pressure. They address commitment to the run, blitzing, run/pass ratios.
    I look back at these posts from 3 or 4 years ago and I feel embarrassed about how poorly we were doing statistical analysis back then. So a big shout out to cbrad in particular for lifting the level of everyone here.

    https://www.thephins.com/threads/the-effect-gase-has-had-on-tannehill.91046/page-3

    https://www.thephins.com/threads/why-tannehill-should-be-a-better-qb-now-lazor-is-gone.88754/

    https://www.thephins.com/threads/rt17-and-the-run-game.88889/
     
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  39. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Dont strawman me.

    How many of those names are still here, played well, or didnt get cut for under performing?

    And thats hardly "everyone".
     
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  40. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    I hope you’re not getting tired. Cause I’m sure as hell not!
     
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