To give you an idea of what we have to deal with...

I have to at times.
I just hope my life reflects my beliefs to others.
I try my best to be what I need to be to live out my faith.
I have no need to impress others. At the end of the day, I'm the one responsible for my words and actions.

 

I wish I could put my thoughts and beliefs into words the way you do.
You are truly blessed with the wisdom to state things clearly.
Mine gets all jumbled up and comes out sounding off kilter.

 

IMO it still goes back to "those who who believe like us are going to heaven, those who believe differently are going to hell". That's what causes the desire to "save" anyone. That intolerance is my main beef with many religions.

I grew up Catholic and have 13 years of Catholic school. As I got older I asked more questions and the answers were IMO non-sensical. The bible itself is filled with so many contradictions. It never made sense to me that a baby who died in childbirth would be denied heaven through no fault of his own. Or that a good person who hadn't been "saved" b/c he never heard the Word of God would also suffer the same fate. It seemed like an inherently unfair system and I couldn't imagine God creating such a poor system.

So one day I was speaking to Catholic priest whom I considered a friend. He told me that the essence of the bible is "love one another" and that the rest is just opinion on how you should do that. I think it's the same with the consequences. As I grew older I studied more religions and I found that they were remarkably similar in their core beliefs about how people should behave. The differences seem to come from the details. I think the saying "the devil is in the details" applies. The core of most religions is good but the evil comes in when man fills in the details.

 

As an adult that is the part of Christianity I do not really agree with. Well agree with is a bit harsh. It is impossible to not start with ourselves. Unless you are one who has completely let go of one's "ego".

Not saying you do this, I also see that many people use that system to do horrible and mean things. Because they can use the fact they are giving over to God and God says for them to be a jerk. It is not their fault they are ***es, it is God's will for them to be ***es.

Of course ***es being a subjective term. One man's *** is another man's virtuous crusade for the love of their God.

 

People of all faiths, beliefs and systems do horrible things.

The God I believe in would never ask me to do anything to hurt anyone or anything. He hates sin and would never ask anyone to go do anything "In His name" that was bad.

To me, people who do bad things in some one else's name, whether it be God or someone of their faith, is a liar and puts a big blemish on our true beliefs.

As for God telling some one to be a jerk. IMO, that person is a jerk without anyone having to "tell" him.

 

I would never claim that belief in any religion is more enlightened than belief in any other religion. That's my point. I think that any religion that goes around saying "if you don't believe like we do you're going to hell" is making the claim that it is more enlightened than everybody else.

And my belief also begins with God. I think it's the same God given different names due to different human interpretations. In other words it all begins with God, the differences are just our perspectives.

 

Interesting...what were the supporting texts for the babies going to hell? I've always been taught that a baby that died went to heaven, and that is based on things David said and did prior to, and after, losing his child with Bathsheba.

 

I was told they couldn't go to heaven if they had not been baptized b/c everybody is born with original sin.

 

If I remember right, unbaptized babies went to Purgatory.

 

I have studied many different religions in my lifetime. As a (now retired) military man, I was able to travel to different places and learn from the people practicing their beliefs. This has helped me form my own opinion about religion and faith.

I agree what Rafael says in red above. Most of the different "religions" have the same basic foundations. The difference is in the details like someone else said earlier.

I remember growing up as a child in Sunday school and asking many questions. It would seem like when someone didn't have a good answer, they would say "you just have to have faith and believe". The first thing I remember questioning is that God has been around "forever". As told to me and the Sunday school class...he one day decided to make the heavens and Earth. My question was/still is: If he has been around "Forever", why did he suddenly become bored and decide to do this? If he has forever been here, then does that mean he waited "forever" to make us? If yes, we wouldn't be here. I was removed from the school for the rest of the day and made to sit with my mother.

History has not helped with the inconsistencies I find in the Bible. Taoism works best for me.

Thanks Pagan for this post. I'm glad everyone here is discussing and not attacking. That's a great sign.

 

Yeah, cause that theory is supported by Scripture.

That's one of my problems with Catholic doctrine...it oftentimes has no basis in Scripture. Baptism, which by the way, was immersion, not sprinkling, was not done to babies. It was done to people who had accepted Christ as their Saviour, as an outward showing of their conversion. Baptising babies doesn't save them.

 

The concept of original sin is supported by scripture in Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

And according to John 3:5 baptism seems to be a necessity to get into heaven unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost So while it was originally practiced on adults, the teachings of St. Augustine and St. Thomas helped form and support the Catholic traditional view that unbaptized babies don't go to heaven.

The concept of limbo that Ohiophinphan mentions above is where I was taught that unbaptized babies went as well.

 

I didn't disagree with the idea of original sin. Of course we are all born sinners...we are all born with the sin nature, passed down to us, as the Bible says, by our father Adam.

If you say that salvation comes by baptism, then you are attributing your salvation to something done by a man...and not by the death and spilled blood of Christ. Here's a nice little breakdown of baptism:

 

In my faith. We believe baptism is the public showing of a new life in Christ. And some believe it is upon joining a church.
Salvation comes first and foremost.
Baptism is cleansing off the old and bringing in the new you. It is a sacred and beautiful thing to me.
I also believe babies and children are protected by God until they are of an age of being able to understand the TRUE meaning of salvation.

 

Then we are always protected by god since I haven't met anyone who understood the TRUE meaning of salvation .

At best I see people with good ideas.

 

I understand what it means to me personally, so therefore, I don't feel the need to try and explain all my feelings and beliefs.
I believe what I believe and that's enough for me.
I try to respect others and their ways, at all times, but I expect the same in return.

 

And now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about you not being a Christian. YOU are the one who started with that.

Luther also didn't want to leave the Catholic Church, despite him believing that they were wrong on 195 things. Does it surprise you that he could believe that the Bible meant "to dip" as you define it (which is STILL more alike to baptism than pouring water...), yet still not practice it? I mean, if he thought the Church was wrong, but wouldn't leave...

I'm not sure why you get upset. If you don't believe that baptism is by immersion, and you don't believe that baptism comes after salvation, you shouldn't be upset to discuss that with someone who believes differently. I'm more than happy to hear you position...and to discuss it from a Biblical perspective (I apologize, I really don't recall the last discussion that we apparently had on this...)

Debby, I agree with you. I also believe that baptism is an outward showing of your decision to take Christ as your Saviour. Also, I believe that being baptized is your membership into the church in which you were baptized.

 

These last couple of posts are one reason why I dislike organised religion as a whole. You guys are both good people but when it comes to someone's faith it can become a very hairy subject. As you mentioned Ohio this was Pegan's thread to start with and wasn't even intended on going down this path and due to both of you guys wanting to be known as good and solid to your faith's (which I'm sure you both are) through heated words even momentarily it has torn you two apart.

It is a shame that such a good thing can become such a venomous poison in such a short time even for a little while

 

I remember hearing that at one time but I questioned it when I got a little older and was then told about limbo. It always felt to me like they were making it up as they went along.

I kind of think that's what happened with all religion. The basics are God and love one another. Everything else is man's interpretation. Even the religions that don't believe in "God" in name, believe in a connection between all living things. To my mind that is not that different from saying God is in all of us. I don't think the idea of having the Holy Trinity or the inclusion of Mary is that different (in the basics, not the interpretation) of having a polytheistic or a duotheistic God/Goddess construction. I think everything has branched out from the basics and those branches are just people creating a structure that conforms to what they understand. Those understandings vary b/c people, while basically the same, grow up in different cultures and environments.



I always try to follow the maxim that as long as they aren't hurting anyone, the beliefs of others have as much value as my own. That's why I've always had a problem with religions trying to convert or save others. It has too much of an "I'm right and you're wrong" vibe to it. IMO that type of thinking has led to too many wars, too much death and too much persecution. So while I commend those that say that they personally try not to force their beliefs on others, I question whether they are really adhering to the tenants of their own religion if it still preaches an "I'm right you're wrong" approach or "believe like me or you go to hell".

I think this gets it back to what Pagan was talking about.

 

I find that Taoism makes a lot os sense to me as well. However, I do see God in the inter-connection of all living things. I don't really picture a grandfatherly type sitting on a cloud. I think that's just a human attempt to describe something that may be indescribable.

 

it would be beneficial to both sides if we all knew the facts. agreed

 

Ohio, You are correct..."one distinctive element of Christianity among the major religions is that we believe God came to us". That's not the only one but was probably the first to believe that.

I don't think people would reject a faith system because someone couldn't answer the tough questions. If anything, I would hope they would seek out the answers themselves. I can only speak for myself when I say the curiosity doesn't go away and that's just what I did.

Uncle Pagan...Maybe you should invite them in and try to convert them. -or- You could just leave them a copy of this thread. Maybe then they could see that other "Christians" consider that too pushey also.