If we're going to open it up on offense (spread it out or more 3+ WR sets), then I say we should temporarily screw the X's and O's along with trying to nitpick perfection and exact execution. We need playmakers and scoring threats who can all turn an 8 yard pass into a 40 yard TD. You don't need precise execution on every play when you have guys who can create big plays on their own or score at any given moment. We have a bunch of guys who can dribble down the court but no one who can take it to the hole outside of Marshall.
(Example: Davone Bess can turn a 6 yard pass into a solid 12 yard gain, where as Jerrel Jernigan (WR Troy) can turn that same 6 yard pass into a 60 yard TD. Bess gains 16 yards on a quality punt return, where as Jernigan takes that same return to the house. Hartline is a possession WR who OCCASIONALLY gets deep, cant juke anyone, cant run over anyone, isn't a redzone threat, and is mediocre at playing a ball in the air, where as Santonio Holmes is a deep threat ALL the time; DeSean Jackson & Titus Young can track everything while juking guys out of their uniforms; and Greg little can out-jump/highpoint virtually every guy on the field while plowing over DBs with ease, breaking arm tackles from LBs, or spinning around them. Ronnie is dead at WC, where as Tyrod Taylor could rejuvenate it while doubling as a returner/future playmaking WR. This is what this team is missing. Currently, we can NOT "create" plays within each play. Bluntly, we're f****** boring.)
IMO our offense needs a virtual complete overhaul at the skill positions outside of Marshall, while keeping Bess as a 3rd down specialist and using Hart as a utility guy in the rotation. Fasano doesn't fit the mold of a do-it-all TE who can be truly effective in an opened-up offense. We should be looking for dynamic guys who can ALL get open quickly, ALL pick up YAC, and ALL offer the potential of scoring at any given moment. I'm tired of this "move the chains 10 yards at a time offense" b/c we have zero playmakers outside of Marshall.
IMO we need guys who can ALL be moved around to create mismatches as well as versatile enough to create different packages w/o them having to leave the field so that we can capitalize on whatever defensive personnel is playing (IE: with the same 11 guys-- go from a 4 WR set on 1 play to 2 WR/2TE the next or to 2 WR/1 TE/2 RB....... or 5 WR sets to 3 WR/1 TE/1 RB....... or 5 WR to 2 WR/2 TEs/1 RB).
A rotation of Marshall, Jerrel Jernigan, Santonio Holmes, and Greg Little would be a nightmare for defenses b/c these guys can gain quick separation, can score at any moment, are dangerous in the redzone, and are serious weapons when given space to operate. In a spread offense, they'd be provided this extra space, not to mention they'd be seeing more single coverage..... and with their ability to create quick separation, they'd be impossible to be covered as a unit. With this kind of unit (and Bess in rotation), we could still run short, high-percentage passes to move the chains while having the ability to pick up chunk yardage..... and our ground game would greatly benefit from it.
Personally, I'd rather do it this way, and then worry about nitpicking on the X's and O's afterward.
I'm not saying to ignore Oline or RB.... but I think we can address these spots in FA w/o having to throw our entire draft etc at it. Gardner will be back and Jerry will be a year seasoned..... and hopefully Incognito can be wrapped up b/c I liked his potential at C. Both he and Berger should at least be serviceable. If we cant grab Mankins, then I'd entertain the possibility of throwing Odrick at New Orleans for Carl Nicks to keep from having to use a draft pick for his tender.
Debate away.
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Added:
There are 11 players on offense. 5 of these are capable of scoring (6 if you include QB). I look at it as: if these 5 spots are "capable" of scoring TDs, then these 5 spots should all be maximized as far as their scoring potential goes.
I think of it in business terms. I have 5 products. If I want a successful business, I need to see a maximum return on as many of my products as possible. Hartline, Bess, Fasano, and Ronnie are nice and all...... but they don't max out production.... and they account for 4 of our 5 products.dolfan7171, jetssuck and NaboCane like this. -
Having to find a qb tempers my excitement about your analysis..
How bout
1st...Mark Ingram
3rd..Kendrick/DJ williams
4th..Greg Little..
5th..Andy dalton..
6th..Tyrod Taylor..
only thing is I have Taylor, Dalton and Little going before I have them here..
Might have to sacrifice the tight end and go free agent there, and move everyone else up 1 round.ToddsPhins likes this. -
Holmes is too much of a ticking time bomb for my liking. If it were up to me I'd go with Vincent Jackson instead. I could also go with Sidney Rice who should be cheaper. Even though 80% hated Ginn, I imagine if he were here this year Marshall's impact would have been a lot greater.
ToddsPhins likes this. -
i would defintely want to grab at least one WR this year as this draft is loaded with them but we have probably six positions we need to try to upgrade on offense. We wont be able to upgrade each one through the draft so which ones we choose dont really matter to me too much though I think we have to get at least one offensive lineman in the first four rounds. So to me, for our picks 1,3,4 I would be cool with WR, RB, OL or QB, WR, OL or RB, OL, QB or even OL, OL, OL......Oh I forgot, we need a TE too lol. You can add that to the mix as well
jetssuck and ToddsPhins like this. -
TP leaves intellectual approach in favor of:
"JUST GET SOME PLAYMAKERS!!!!!"
And to think, we handled the Packers in GB and the Stealers at home with a poor running game and a Dyslexic Qb.ToddsPhins likes this. -
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Well, fwiw, if he is on the board I'd like Ryan Mallet at #15 then I'll worry about playmakers.
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Just my own thoughts, but if we're going to add a WR then it ought to be someone who can give us some Ginn (as you mentioned ) type speed. -
Personally, I'd grab Bradshaw and pray that we can trade back our 1st pick b/c I'd rather end up with Kyle Rudolph in the 1st and Jernigan in the 2nd instead of just having Mark Ingram alone. Delone Carter or DeMarco Murray could be added in the 3rd to pair with Bradshaw....... then Greg Little in the 4th and Tyrod in the 5th. -
When you break it down to its bare essence, it really can be less complex than this regime has forced it to be. IE: "Guy throws the ball to the other guy..... Other guy catches it....... Then other guy scores a TD." We have parts 1 & 2 down, but we're depleted in the "scoring department". It can be quite simplified really if you have the guys who allow it.
Look at the Jets---- Snachez can look like crap half the game and then all of a sudden he hits a quick pass to Holmes who turns it into a huge TD...... or Mark throws a deep pass to Edwards who outplays his defender and then takes it to the house..... or finding Keller wide open over the middle b/c he has the speed to split the seam. It shouldn't have to be this BS garbage that we have with Bess, Hartline, and Fasano.
Hey, we handled the Packers b/c they were dismantled with injuries.... and they still kept it close. When we were injury plagued vs Chicago, they destroyed us. IMO If we had playmakers, we probably beat the Stealers without the crap call at the end mattering.jetssuck likes this. -
I think Rice is better overall than both players but he's not a 4.5 burner. Not many of those guys around who are also above average receivers. I do think he posses enough speed to stretch the field to provide a good counter for Marshall plus he does a lot of other things well.
ToddsPhins likes this. -
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Having Capt Checkdown at Qb doesn't help, which is why I'd take Mallet in a heartbeat.
As for Packers, they were injured all yr long, they had 14 men on the IR in the Championship Game. -
I'd like to see something wide open like:
WR Marshall---WR/KR Jernigan---TE Kyle Rudolph- LT Long-LG Mankins(or Nicks)-C Incongnito(or Berger)-RG Jerry-RT Gardner (or a Rookie)---- WR Little--- WR Sidney Rice, V Jackson, Holmes, or Titus Young------ WR/WC QB/PR Tyrod Taylor
RB Ahmad Bradshaw & Mike Tolbert
3rd down specialist/rotational guy- Bess -
Hartline can make a move to get by his defender, but the ball needs to be placed almost perfectly b/c:
A. he doesn't have the speed to run under a pass.
B. he's lacking in the ability to really track & adjust to passes in air.
C. he lacks the ability to consistently outplay defenders like a larger & more physical Braylon Edwards (which makes Hart less reliable to throw it up to).
C. faster defenders can recover on Hart's 4.5 speed.
D. if it's underthrown, DBs with better ball-skills can outplay Hart (as we saw with Joe Haden)
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I'm with Todd .... we do in fact need playmakers ... 2 on O and 1 on D ....
On O: we need a speedy, vertical threat WR and a fast powerful RB (or some would argue a TE)
On D: we need a playmaker at ILB or S
Those are our needs .... AND those are our playmakers .... this is not discounting G and TE (if not addressed above) ....
There are several TEs (Daniels/Miller/WInslow)) and Gs (Mankins/Hicks) available in FA
Get rid of Thigpen, who showed nothing last year .... and bring in Dixon/Stanton to go along with Henne and BrandstaterToddsPhins likes this. -
The last time this team needed playmakers they drafted Pat White, Pat Turner, Brian Hartline, and John Nalbone so I think they'll take care of business
GMJohnson, ToddsPhins, jetssuck and 1 other person like this. -
But going off of your 5 products idea the Packers have, Driver, Jennings, Nelson, Quarless, and Starks. I honestly believe the only real advantage they have is in the number 2 receiver, sure Starks is starting to play well, but I really believe that most of their success can be attributed to their great offensive line. Once Clifton came out that offense kind of slowed.
The Steelers have Hines Ward, Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, Heath Miller, and Rashard Mendenhall. Here I see an advantage at the number 2 reciever and running back, but I definitely prefer Marshall and Bess to Ward and Sanders. I think an upgrade at #2 WR would be great for us, along with some new running backs. Tight end can be found later in the draft, check out Jeffrey Anderson from UAB highlights he's very athletic for his size and is more of an H back to match with Fasano.ToddsPhins likes this. -
I haven't seen Anderson yet, so thanks for the plug. The late round Hback I like is Charles Clay from Tulsa. 6'3 239, 4.67 forty, solid frame with room to gain another 10-15 lbs..... caught over 1000 yards as a freshman receiver and was moved to Hback. Has 38 TDs and seems to be a good teammate and does whatever the coaches ask of him. Will be keeping an eye on him all Senior Bowl week.
If we cant grab a vertical threat in FA, then Titus Young would be ideal. The kid has some of the most impressive ball skills/tracking ability that I've ever seen (for a guy under 6 foot). A QB can misplace a pass by 10 yards and Titus will track it down..... and unlike Ginn, he has good elusiveness to go along with his speed..... and more confidence & swagger at WR, too. lol.
I really like Little b/c he's a steal in the 3rd or 4th round and allows us the ability to trade Marshall in a few years to recoup at least a 2nd rounder (while also freeing up a ton of cap room).
Jernigan is just too darn fast, quick, and elusive to not want in a spread out offense IMO. If we had Titus Young, a seam busting TE, and Jernigan stretching the field, then Marshall, Little, and an explosive COP back could have tons of space underneath to turn short passes into quality gains rather than being tackled as soon as the ball hits their hands...... or send Little deep and have Marshall and Jernigan making plays underneath. The opportunities would be endless. -
I just don't understand the thinking of this regime when it's come to us passing up on every offensive playmaker during the past 3 drafts. EVERY damn one of them. -
Buffalo has a good secondary; the Jets have 3 great cover corners; the Pats have a very promising young secondary. We played the Jets close w/o Revis the first time around....... but with Revis their secondary was too much for our weak receiving corps. If we're going to win our division, then IMO we need a virtually revamped WR-TE unit who can actually give our rival secondaries some fits.
For instance: If the Jets have 3 great corners, then IMO we need 4 receivers who can ALL get open quickly and make plays, with at least 1 of them being a legit vertical threat, and at least 2 of them being physical WRs who can score in the redzone. Their 3 corners can nullify 3 decent receivers with proper game-planning like we saw them do against NE....... but I'd like to see them try it against Marshall, Jernigan, Little, and a vertical threat like Holmes or Titus Young, especially if we had a stud like Ahmad Bradshaw in the backfield. If they blitz, then you can trust throwing it up to a single covered Little or Marshall on the outside, or you can hit Jernigan or Young on a quick slant who then splits the defense for a huge gain. IF they drop more into coverage, then you can dump it off to Bradshaw who makes them pay.
I'd like to see a package of Marshall--Jernigan--Kyle Rudolph--Tyrod Taylor--Greg Little spread out 5 wide......... and if a defense brings in extra coverage, then switch them up to 2 wide (Marshall with Jernigan in the slot) with Rudolph in tight, Tyrod at WC QB, & Little lined up in the backfield. You can run the option to Little...... or an end around option with Jernigan as the motion guy (instead of Ricky)..... or a true option-pass (that Ronnie simply can not perform)..... I'd even like to see the option run with Jernigan on the end around and Little on the dive. The fake to Little can suck people in tight while Tyrod can pitch it or keep it based on the DE/OLB. If Marshall stomps on his corner, then you could have Jernigan going 1 on 1 with a safety and I like those odds.
Heck, even Marshall, a playmaking RB like Jordan Todman, Rudolph, Tyrod, and Little on the field together. Depending on what defensive personnel is playing, you could go 4-5 wide on one play...... and 2 wide the next with Todman & Taylor lined up in the backfield behind Henne and Rudolph in tight blocking. The only time we've done something like this is with Fasano, Polite, Bess, Ginn, and Haynos IIRR (frantically biting my nails here--- someone call the police b/c this group is too darn scary).
The possibilities and mismatches are endless if we bring in dynamic playmakers who can be moved all over the field.djphinfan and Fin-Omenal like this. -
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i agree with you ToddsPhins. We just need guys who make plays. Marshall is a guy who can make something out of nothing, but not when hes the only threat on the entire offense. With our running game decimated, our WRs became the only way we could score. Bess showed some flash this season in the YAC department and that's wonderful. We just need more of it.
Last year i spoke against drafting a guy like Dexter McCluster and I wholeheartedly admit to being wrong. He made a lot of plays for Kansas City and he did it without ever actually having a specific position.ToddsPhins likes this. -
This team is going to need some X's and even more O's... -
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If our first pick is traded back we could very easily draft Kyle Rudolph 1st, Jerrel Jernigan 2nd, Greg Little 4th, Tyrod Taylor 5th..... and the 3rd pick could be used where ever you like: RB, LG, QB or another playmaking WR like Titus Young. Throw in Free Agency and that could easily be 5 playmakers in one offseason. It's only a pipe dream if you make no effort to accomplish it. -
i'm really not a tyrod taylor fan ...
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A. Pick up our needs (G, RB) early in the draft and go something like:
1. LG- Pouncey or Wisniewski
2. WR/KR- Jernigan
3. RB- Jordan Todman, DeMarco Murray, Delone Carter
4. WR- Greg Little
5. WR/PR/WC QB- Tyrod Taylor
B. Or we could take a backwards approach and go after BPA/playmakers early in the draft and let the OTHER TEAMS in need of Guards and RBs draft them early, leaving the FA market in less demand for Mankins, Nicks, Ahmad Bradshaw, and DeAngelo Williams.
I know we need a LG, but in the grand scheme of things, I'd have to think that a potential franchise TE (like Rudolph) holds more value than a left guard..... so even though LG is an immediate need, how do you take it to the next level when you're passing on elite talent at an important skill position, especially when quality guards can be picked up in the mid rounds w/o having to use a valuable 1st on one? If we're talking a Center, then I'd gladly take a late 1st on one b/c it's the 2nd most important position on the Oline........ but a 1st round guard is tough to swallow.Ozzy likes this. -
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ToddsPhins likes this.
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Either Pouncey or Wisniewski should be there in the late 1st. Jernigan will hopefully be there in the 50's. I would guess that at least 1 of those backs will be there in the 3rd. I really like Tyrod's talent level and potential as an xfactor, but I could go QB with that pick if you prefer. -
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What do you think our chances are of trading back our 1st pick 2 times to ensure getting Todman (or Ryan Williams) & Jernigan in the 2nd while adding an extra 3rd? -
i'm 100% for trading back as many times as we can. i just dont think its that easy. i go into thinking we wont but hoping we willToddsPhins likes this. -
Quite frankly you guys are a bunch of delusionals. Keep dreaming. Matter of fact keep fantasizing.
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To me that's not a pipe dream.
For one thing. This team needs a Rb more than anything and waiting until after the draft to aquire one, one that will start, is taking too much of a risk. Waiting for at least one lineman is also too much of a risk.
I mean, I do like Rudolph but he is coming off of as serious a hamstring injury as you'll probably ever see. BUT with no quality Rb's signed to the roster, it is a far bigger need than TE, or Wr with their first pick. With the draft coming before Free Agency it means address the biggest needs first. Fill the roster with your starters and hope for something great afterwards. Like waiting for a Santonio Holmes, or a Braylon Edwards type because the roster is full of Wr's already.
Then there is nothing but questions at the most important part on the entire team. No way I don't go after a Qb that I would think has a great shot at beating out Henne and Taylor has no shot.
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