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To Win or To Tank

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by KeyFin, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I think the hope with him coming into the tear is he would continue making the strong plays and cut back on the crappy ones, especially with Gase and his perceived QB friendly offense.

    I personally dont think he or Allen are going to be long term QB in the league.
     
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  2. Phin McCool

    Phin McCool Well-Known Member

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    Seems we aren't the only ones intent on tanking. Bengals have just announced that they will be benching Andy Dalton after their bye week, in favour of rookie Ryan Finley.
     
  3. grampahol

    grampahol New Member

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    Oh c'mon..You're vastly underrating the power of sucking BADLY.. I think the Bengals planned all along to lose so the Phins can get the number one overall pick. I mean it's not like Mike Brown uses his immense powers of deduction for the benefit of the team, fans or anything other than saving himself a buck whenever possible.
     
  4. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I really don't trust the decision makers in the front office. The plan just seems to be too outwardly simplistic. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but, I doubt there is much more forethought involved than "tank and get the first and best QB".
    No team has had more #1 overall QBs than Cleveland or 1st rd QBs for that matter.
    I thought they were going places this year. They had their QB, cocky little prick, certainly has the "it" factor and the talent. They spared no expense surrounding him with talented high priced receivers. Half way through the season OBJ publically states how much he'd "love" to play with Brady. WTF??.. Looks like they had all the ingredients but, got the recipe wrong.
    The locker room is filled with big egos. If those egos clash and the coach and QB can't rein them in, the chemistry won't develop.
    Excuse my skepticism but, I have no reason to expect any better from our front office.
    The tanking might only be for one year but, the sucking can go on and on.
     
  5. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    To me, the reason I’m optimistic, is I feel like they’ve stripped away a lot of the players who aren’t buying into the system and have found guys who want to compete. This is not a good team and doesn’t have the talent to compete.

    I’m not sure if we should go QB or Young. We need a lot of talent and the reality is we aren’t one player away. This is going to be a 2-3 season turnaround IF they can execute. With all the draft and salary cap capital we have, there is really no excuses. This will be Flores and Grier’s team. If it doesn’t work, time for them both to go. I’m hoping it works and they’re in place for a long time.
     
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  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Who in here thought the staff and players were tanking again..

    Just wanna know for future reference and reasons
     
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  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Fin D owner of this thread..
     
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  8. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Staff? I suspected some of them. Players? Not one of them. Doesn't matter now, we got a win against the Jests and all is good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
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  9. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    The "tank" talk definitely needs to go away. These guys are competitors for sure, they're just not physically elite competitors. We're also an extremely young team at the moment. It's no surprise that we handed it to the Jets today. However, I don't expect us to go on this colossal run of wins and end up 7-9 or 6-10 like some people are probably feeling. The number one pick is really a four team race with Us, the Redskins, the Bengals, and the Jets at the moment.
    Washington has their only win against us and they have winnable games against the Jets, Lions, and Giants for the rest of their season. I think 3-13 is probably a realistic look at their final record.

    The Jets have winnable games against the Giants, Redskins, Raiders, Bengals, and the Dolphins. I think they will finish 4-12 for the year.

    The Bengals have winnable games against the Jets, Dolphins, and possibly the Browns. I think 1-15 or possibly 0-16 could very well happen for that franchise.

    In conclusion, I think we will be picking no later than number 2 on draft day, so the choices become very simple for us. It's a three player race between Tua, Young, and Burrow at this point. We will be getting one of them.
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I’m sorry you are right, I didn’t mean players..Just the staff
     
  11. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Think we have the barebones of a system and some parts that will be on this team over the next few years. There will also be players that we will pick up in FA & the lower end of the draft that will fit the system better than some of the players right now.
    What we are missing are those difference makers, players that can do something out of the ordinary, a top 10 type of player at QB, DE, LB, S & LT. I know that that's not easy to get but if we can get a couple of those this year, that will certainly help in the future.
     
  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The obvious strategy was very obvious from the very beginning..

    Front office and staff two different entities..each one minds their own business...that’s key to a proper rebuild of this magnitude..the goal is to rebuild the entire team with Brian Flores type guys.

    So, the Front office depletes roster to collect as many assets as possible, even ones that have a higher return for which was paid out..depletes roster to start over and clean cap.

    Staff agrees to coach the players that the front office provides without concern..Win with what you have is their personal mantra and challenge...

    I bet Grier, Ross and the rest of the front office staff is shaking their heads In disbelief, in disbelief that this staff has that roster not only competing against NFL teams, but getting a win...

    That’s why their happy, because they know they put that coach and staff in the worst situation possible, and they came out fighting and winning regardless.
     
  13. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Active Member

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    Tanking is clearly the goal. But a W against Gase and the Jets is too hard to pass up. How are you going to ask Fitzmagic to not try against the Jets?

    I think we've seen that devoting all your resources into a first overall QB is a 50/50 venture, at best. Tua may be Lamar Jackson, but he could also be Baker Mayfield.

    The fact that the Phins have 3 first round picks and at least one Top 10 pick is the goal. The Texans and Steelers need to quit being so good tho.
     
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  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Here's what the evidence we have so far seems to point towards:

    At the end of last season, Ross realizes Gase and TBaum have to go. He also realizes that Grier probably has a track record of being against numerous moves that various coaches and Tbaum, have wanted to make that ended up poorly. Grier, likely has been telling Ross for awhile they need to tear the house down to rafters and rebuild. Ross was likely against this, till he finally realized it is time to listen to Grier.

    So, the decision is finally made to give Grier the reigns and to fully rebuild with Ross signing off on the 2019 record being unimportant....if they win they win, if they lose they lose, the ONLY goal is tear down and acquire resources (ie draft picks and cap space). Grier goes out and gets a staff with a winning pedigree and a coach who has the unique experience of starting in the FO side. I believe he does this because he had been vetoed and outvoted numerous times by people who don't understand talent acquisition in regards to proper team building. He also brings in two other GMs with who have solid draft histories. They planned to purge contracts in the hopes of building cap room, not just because they want room next year, but because they also want room to essentially buy draft picks, like they did in two different ways with Thill and Talib. They know the best way to build a team is through the lower salary of draft picks and having cash to sign or keep the few key players that make their systems work. That's why they planned to keep Tunsil, Minkah & X and build around them. Well, Tunsil garnered a ludicrous haul and Minkah couldn't be convinced to stay...so be it. They also didn't bring in big FAs this year because: 1) They knew the record this year was irrelevant. 2) They wanted to have as much cap space as possible to buy picks, if and when those situations arose. 3) They'd rather see how the next draft plays out and who they acquire through that, THEN fill in holes with FAs that fit, instead of staring at X pick and taking a guy that plays the same position as the high priced FA you picked up the prior year when it didn't even matter.

    That's it. That was the entirety of the plan. Everything else, positive and negative, are just potential consequences from the above decision. They saw things like maybe getting #1 overall, pressure testing new coaches in terrible situations, gauging lesser players without superstar help, etc. as POTENTIAL benefits. But I doubt those things were actually part of the plan, just the things you try to grab at when making a tough decision more palatable.
     
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  15. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Usually "front office" is part of the "staff" (you even say "front office staff" at one point in your post):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_staffs

    Just saying.. because this latest post of yours makes it harder to understand precisely what you were asking. I personally thought Ross and Grier were "tanking" while Flores was not (still think this is what's been happening.. but who knows), but when you asked who thought the "staff" was tanking.. well that includes the FO.
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    He's talking coaching staff.
     
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  17. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Active Member

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    One has to wonder how this was pitched to Flores and guys on the team that actually have talent.

    The evidence is overwhelming that this team is trying to lose most games or at least ambivalent whether they win or lose.

    It's clear this team does have talent and can win a handful of games, they're on an upward trajectory and, in theory, could win 2 or 3 more games this year.

    Going all in on Tua isn't the way to go. If we get him, great but no team that has long term success does so because of a First Overall QB.

    The key to this team's future success is the cap space they have. Money won't be an object going forward. And as long as they don't waste it on the Joey Porter's or the Mike Wallace's of the world.
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    No, the evidence is overwhelmingly counter to them tanking.
     
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  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yup. They are rebuilding. Devoid of talent, if they are able to eek out wins, that's actually better, as it means the team isn't as bad at it appears. Means you don't need as many pieces potentially.
     
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  20. DolPhinPhan7

    DolPhinPhan7 Active Member

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    There are multiple examples of games they were relatively competitive going into the second half and then completely stopped. We have a Redskin game were they did the Necessary Roughness play of going for two. You have the 3rd and 20 play against the Steelers.

    They have pride and they have some good players. But wins aren't essential this season.
     
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  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    None of that is evidence of anything resembling tanking.
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Of course we know, because we know who and what Brian Flores stands for.

    Knowing what we know of Brian Flores, why is it hard to understand that he would say this to Grier at the beginning of Grier’s plan.

    “ listen Chris, I respect what you wanna do, and to rebuild this thing we need assets and to clear this cap mess, but don’t expect me or my staff to do anything but, what we have been doing all our careers, Myself, and my staff will coach the men you provide to us hard, and to win, period..

    Grier... “I respect that Brian, and respect you, and I wouldn't of expected anything less.”

    Strong handshake ensues

    Front office are the execs, staff is coaches..that’s what I meant.
     
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  23. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I didn’t mean “who knows” with respect to Flores.. yesterday proved unequivocally he’s not trying to lose (and replacing Rosen with Fitz was very strong evidence prior to that anyway). I meant “who knows” with respect to the intentions Ross had at the beginning of the offseason. I’ll no longer say the “Dolphins” are tanking.. rebuilding is better suited to what we’re now seeing.. but I’m not yet convinced tanking by the FO wasn’t the original goal irrespective of Flores.
     
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  24. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    All I know is that Flores will flop and be fired within 4 years and that every win is a punch in the nuts this year.

    I never thought winning a game could be depressing.
     
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  25. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I’m with you on how depressing it is that we won yesterday, at least seen from the perspective of potentially grabbing a top rated QB in next year’s draft, but the fact Flores hasn’t lost the locker room, has the guys playing with energy and even won with such a depleted roster should at least temper concerns about whether he’ll flop as a HC. At minimum I’d hold off on an evaluation of Flores until next year at earliest.
     
  26. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I should cut him some slack. I think his type of coaching works with this type of team. Guys who will do what coach says even if it's ridiculous because they arent really starters anywhere else or want to prove they have a place in the NFL.

    I worry about his coaching style and personality with guys who have talent once we obtain some of those. Plus we are a pretty vanilla team with no identity, especially offensively.

    I basically see his ceiling as a Sparano type coach. Fairly average, can maybe get the job done sometimes but isnt going to win you games with his gameplan or mind.

    That's just my read of him so far. I could be 100% wrong because it's just opinion.
     
  27. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dolphins fans are the worst. Flores has the team playing hard, as they believe in his philosophy, we have been competitive in the recent games, get a win against the Jests (whilst rubbing Gase's face in it) and you are still unhappy - I don't get it. This season was about accumulating draft & financial capital and putting in place an offensive & defensive plan that has been successful for many years, NOT about tanking & losing every game. Yes, it would be nice to be in a position to pick the best QB to run the system but this doesn't necessarily mean the highest picked QB - it's a team game.
     
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  28. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What have you seen about his personal coaching style & personality that 'talented' players won't mesh with - I am genuinely interested? I don't see that at all.
     
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  29. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Based on the reasoning you just presented, it doesn't make any difference what draft position we use on a QB.

    Some "elite" QB's were taken at the end of the draft, like Brady. I think Romo was a UDFA and wasn't there a QB for the RAM's who was packing groceries when he got called up that did pretty well?

    Based on these simple and well known facts (there are possibly others as well), your presumption that elite QB's are "always" taken in the first five picks doesn't hold water, or much of anything else. Can we at least limit some of the overstatements we use when justifying our preference for draft picks?
     
  30. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    I thought Grier was the one with money to spend?
     
  31. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    It's no secret that I always was and still am a fan of Tannehill.

    Once he was traded, my position didn't have a basis for consideration any more. No use crying over spilled milk!

    We did dramatically reduce our salary expenses and we did get something for him. We won't know until next season if this trade turns out to be a success or not, so why not look at it in light of the team reorganizing itself; which is consistent with all their trading and hiring actions so far this year?
     
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  32. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    What about the TE's?
     
  33. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    It most certainly shows it has been wrong in the recent past!
     
  34. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Actually, that is a good definition of "common sense"!
     
  35. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    The grocery bagger was Kurt Warner.
     
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  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That's a tough one- we cut O'Leary and Gisecki isn't really a TE...but he's a holdout from the previous regimen so you can't call him an upgrade even though he's clearly playing better (he lines up at WR too though). Smythe has one catch on the year and Cox hasn't made the field much as all. So I'd say TE is a wash.
     
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  37. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    As far as position assignments go, they are all just ends, in my opinion, with some degree of specialization which isn't as clear cut as many believe.
     
  38. jdallen1222

    jdallen1222 He can smell your fear

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    Not depressing at all when you are a fan.
     
  39. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    No, when you see the outline of the plan worked but the individual moves were wrong you cant say that the outline cant work.

    Btw I dont mean to say it's the best way. I'm just saying it's not impossible.
     
  40. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't mind if we would win 4-6 games this season, because this would mean we'd have a great coach and with that everything else should follow... :)
     
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